[The Nip]

I've been giving much thought to the prospect of the USA allowing Japan to fully rearm itself, to the degree where it could wipe a country (like Korea) off the face of the planet almost as easily as we could.

I'm no political expert, of course, so I'm wondering what you folks think of this.

I realize that many of you have relatives who fought the Japs, many of whom experienced horrible things while engaged with the Japanese army. They agreed to disarm, and we've basically neutered the country. But, realize that it's been 60 years since then...

Logically speaking, Japan is our greatest, and most utterly capable ally in that region. We've come a long way since the 1940s, and I can't imagine Japan even dreaming of hurting the USA again. The partnership between the two countries is now almost unbreakable, and seemingly genuine.

AND, if those Koreans keep up this B.S., it would only work to our advantage to have a capable ally in that region, who could diffuse any situation those starving commies could/would throw at us. Be it Koreans, Chinese or Russians...having Japan on our side, with the means to do damage, would be extremely nice.

Just a small thought....what do you folks think?

[foghornl]

Well, why not? ? ? Japan is a good trading partner, and it wouldn't hurt us to have another ally over in that part of the world.

[My Dad might not agree, he was a WW2 Army infantryman in the Pacific Theatre. That was, however 58 years ago.....]

[CZ-75]

I'm ready for them to take up the burden of their defense.

The Japanese and Euros have prospered b/c they knew that they didn't need to spend as much as they might otherwise have had the US not been watching their backs.

The extreme pacifism of the Japanese constitution has been worked as a dodge from responsibility before, such as the Gulf War. I don't see another Rape of Nanking that the cult of emperor worship is no longer prevalent and people see themselves as responsible for their own actions.

All in all, to be a fully functional, fully sovereign nation, the Japanese should have the capability to act independently of the US.

[Blackhawk]

If they want to rearm itself, we won't stop them.

[ahadams]

man if you thought the chicoms were cranked about Taiwan, that's nothing compared to how they'll react to a rearmed Japan! whew! could get interesting!

[Russ]

If N. Korea really has nukes, we would have to give some to Japan or get out of their way and let them build their own. This would scare the snot out of the N. and S. Koreans and also the Chinese. Japan effectively conquered these countries earlier this century and are still hated very much by those old enough to remember. They might have a hard time with China now. It really is too bad there couldn't be some way to depose that little dictator over the North and let the South build them up. The South is already an awesome economic power and it's too bad the North can't enjoy that too.

[Skunkabilly]

'The Nip' LOL love your username.

AND, if those Koreans keep up this B.S.,
NORTH Koreans. South Korea is a good ally, they put us in bombing range of Beijing. Gotta love that ;)

On a side note I'd love to have a Honda of AR-15s.

What happened to 'Chink' from TFL anyway? :D

[WilderBill]

I read yesterday that there is a bill before the Japanese Diet to allow Japan to build it's own nukes.
We were talking at work and considering what we could do to help Japan get back up to par as a militry power. One option waould be to sell them one or two recently retired conventional carriers. Then the thought of the Lexington going to Japan came up. Weird!
I think that if they limited their normal range of operations to the western Pacific we would be OK with them rearming.

[Art Eatman]

I figure it's up to the folks in Japan, not up to us, to make a decision about any re-armament. It's up to their politicos as to dealing with Beijing, although Beijing seems to feel they have a right to increase their own military. Seems to me that Japan is directly threatened by North Korea, as is South Korea, so re-armament is sensible. (I've never seen a moral difference between personal self-defense and national self-defense.)

Either the mainland Chinese curb their dog, or somebody else is gonna do it. The People's Republic of Crankiness wants to be a player on the world stage, so they better act like grownups when their protege starts in with this saber-rattling.

Any way you cut it, however, it's gonna be a political mess.

Art

Skunkabilly: About a year into TFL's existence, we had a thread running about the "Police Action" in Korea. I repeated some comments I'd heard from combat veterans about "Joe Chink", the generic name for soldiers in the ChiCom army. I got a PM from somebody, all exercised about my use of the term. I got nowhere with my explanation of a specific name from a specific time in a specific context--separate and distinct from any daily thoughts I might ever have about anybody of Chinese background...Go figure. :)

[Waitone]

In exchange for a defenseless Japan the US agreed to provide strategic defense to the tune of $40 billion annually to Joe and Martha Sixpack in the USofA.

I think its time for Japan to step up to the range and learn how to shoot all over again. With the historic animis among China, Japan, and Korea the reappearance of a military in Japan will really honk off the Chinese.

The US is getting all tangled up in its underwear over Islamofastist terrorists (as well as it should). China is the real threat to US in Asia. Fact is, one could make a case that China is opportunistically using Islamofascists to wage asymetrical warfare against the US.

[Skunkabilly]

Art, LOL

'Chink' was in reference to a TFL member of Chinese descent. Not sure if he made it over to THR.

[4v50 Gary]

I'm against it. Until Japan acknowledges its wrongdoings and makes some sort of gesture towards its victims, forget it.

I know one Vet who survived the Death March of Bataan, was shipped over to Japan to work in their mines and with other Allied POWs, was threatened with death if we invaded the mainland. They have yet to receive an apology. :fire: Now, throw in all the atrocities committed in the Philipines, Wake Island (our civilian contractors were forced to complete the airfield and executed afterwards), the high seas (where merchant marine sailors were "rescued" only to be beheaded on the sub's deck), the practice of biological warfare in China, etc., NO WAY!

I want to see the Japanese children educated about the atrocities their elders committed against ours. When they want to hold some sort of rally about the bomb, let them lower their heads in shame about the murder, rape and torture of all their victims.

[David Park]

Although we wanted a defenseless Japan when we wrote their constitution, I don't think that's the case any longer. I'm sure the DoD guys would like to see the Japanese "pull their weight," as long as we get to keep the bases on Okinawa and elsewhere. The problem is that many Japanese like their peace-oriented constitution and would be just as nervous as Japan's neighbors about rearming on a large scale.

I'm not going to state my opinion either way, since I think it's the decision of the Japanese people. They have the power to amend their constitution, but they have never done so. Until now Japan has been content to send money to the UN and let someone else (usually US troops) handle world problems, but now that they are in the crosshairs, their attitude may change.

[Gewehr98]

I read yesterday that there is a bill before the Japanese Diet to allow Japan to build it's own nukes.

They would have to renounce their membership in the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and learn how to properly handle subcritical quantities of fissionable materials, something they haven't quite gotten the hang of, witness the Tokai-mura facility's criticality accident in 1999. (They dumped 35 pounds of U-235 into a nitric acid bath, instead of the 5.2 pounds that was called for):uhoh:


http://www.ccnr.org/gifs/fission_ana1.gif

[Coronach]

Uh...

Guys? They're not disarmed now. They have one of the best non-carrier navies in the world, adequate air forces for defending their own slice of the planet, and a well trained, if small, army. The only thing they cannot do is project power very well, and with their consititution that is nearly a moot point.

One can debate the wisdom of them unshackling themselves from their pacifist consititution, and regearing their military to do more than defend, but they are far from unarmed.

Mike

[Bahadur]

The Nip:

First of all, Japan is already re-armed (to the extent it wants to re-arm). It already spends more on defense than the vast majority of countries in the world. By spending alone, it is one of the world's top military powers.

As Skunkabilly pointed out, SOUTH Korea is our ally. NORTH Korea is the bad guys. Apparently, you can't separate the two (as you called Taiwanese and Koreans "banana tree-climbing and bug-eating primates" and expressed a great deal of admiration to those beautiful Japanese in another thread, your mindset is pretty obvious to anyone who had read some of your writings).

You also advocated that Japan should have been "allowed" to conquer Asia during WWII, so I don't know whose interests you have at heart (Japan's or the those of the US?).

I don't know what your ethnic origin is (your handle does bring up the point). But if you are an ethnic Japanese, I advise you not to bring up your petty ethnic squabbles with Koreans and Taiwans into a debate about serious geo-politcal issues.
I've been giving much thought to the prospect of the USA allowing Japan to fully rearm itself, to the degree where it could wipe a country (like Korea) off the face of the planet almost as easily as we could.

I'm no political expert, of course, so I'm wondering what you folks think of this.Perhaps you... Uh, never mind...

[Wildalaska]

I personally find his user name offensive....:cuss:

[Thumper]

WildspellitnipponeseAlaska

[TheBluesMan]

Thumper - Don't encourage him... Please! ;)

Bahadur - Please check your Private Messages.

[Wildalaska]

WildspellitnipponeseAlaska

That would be a bit more acceptable..

WildimitationisthesincerestformofflatteryAlaska

[Croyance]

Unlike the Germans, the Japanese have never admitted their wrong doings in WWII - biological experiments (just like Germans), organized rape (not just of Nanking), and attrocities on civilian populations.
Their schools will not buy any textbooks that mention Japanese aggressions in WWII. Generations have grown up not realizing that Japan was responsible for WWII in the Pacific theater - to them we were the aggressors. I believe their monuments (like that in Hiroshima) don't bother to mention it either.
Also, Japan is merely our ally of convenience, or rather we are their's. Why arm a person who will be your enemy tomorrow? Or are you not learning from today's events?

[Bahadur]

Croyance:
Unlike the Germans, the Japanese have never admitted their wrong doings in WWII - biological experiments (just like Germans), organized rape (not just of Nanking), and attrocities on civilian populations.

Their schools will not buy any textbooks that mention Japanese aggressions in WWII. Generations have grown up not realizing that Japan was responsible for WWII in the Pacific theater - to them we were the aggressors. I believe their monuments (like that in Hiroshima) don't bother to mention it either.Quite right. Their text books still justify Japanese invasions into other Asian nations as an "effort liberate fellow Asians from the bondage of European imperialism."

To most Japanese, WWII began with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Japan was the victim. Some of them will grant, however, that they were the victims of their own militarists first, then by us Americans second.

Unlike Germany, which went through something of a collective soul-searching about their guilt in the Sixties and the Seventies, the Japanese NEVER went through that process. Many youngsters in Japan today do not understand why there is so much anger against the Japanese in much of the rest of the Far East. To many of them, it appears as if the the Chinese, Koreans and Taiwanese are simply "irrationally hostile for no good reason" or "out of jealousy because the Japanese work hard and live more richly." That kind of thinking based on ignorance of their own history seems oddly consistent with the beliefs held by "The Nip" character.
Also, Japan is merely our ally of convenience, or rather we are their's. Why arm a person who will be your enemy tomorrow? Or are you not learning from today's events?An ally is always one of convenience. It just so happens that long-term Japanese geo-political interests and ours coincide nicely (for much the same reason why ours mesh with those of the Brits so well). Japan is an island nation. Its long-term geo-political goal is the prevention of a dominant power in the Asian continent like a powerful China. Likewise, our long-term strategic objective is to prevent the rise of a continent power anywhere that can challenge us (Germany, Russia, China, etc.). For that reason, the UK and Japan have been our best allies in the post-45 era.

[MrAcheson]

Most Germans are ashamed of what their country did in WWII under the Nazis. They have learned from their past and taken cultural and political steps to ensure that it never happens again. Germany seeks to operate in the context of a united Europe.

The Japanese are different. They have not learned the lessons of WWII. Japanese society and culture still have strong elitist, mysogynist, and imperialist undercurrents. These undercurrents strongly reassert themselves in their popular media periodically. Currently Japan does not seek to be a dominant military power in Asia and the US and Japan have common interests so we are friends. Knowing Japanese culture, it would only be a matter of time before they did make moves toward military dominance and this would bring Japan and the US into conflict again.

[Bahadur]

MrAcheson:
Most Germans are ashamed of what their country did in WWII under the Nazis. They have learned from their past and taken cultural and political steps to ensure that it never happens again. Germany seeks to operate in the context of a united Europe.

The Japanese are different. They have not learned the lessons of WWII. Japanese society and culture still have strong elitist, mysogynist, and imperialist undercurrents. These undercurrents strongly reassert themselves in their popular media periodically. Currently Japan does not seek to be a dominant military power in Asia and the US and Japan have common interests so we are friends. Knowing Japanese culture, it would only be a matter of time before they did make moves toward military dominance and this would bring Japan and the US into conflict again.Your post was a good-going for me until the last sentence. It is NOT a matter of time. The Japanese public really is almost pathologically pacifist now. They really have almost "allergic" reaction to all things military.

Can that change in the future? Sure it can. But there are a number of catastrophic steps that need to occur before that happens, and the chances of such catastrophies are low.

[Zander]

But there are a number of catastrophic steps that need to occur before that happens, and the chances of such catastrophies are low.Well, there was that North Korean missile that flew over northern Japan and crashed into the Pacific. ;) Reckon the Japanese are a little bit nervous about the nukes in North Korea?

I do agree with you...the Japanese are indeed a country of lemmings to an embarrassing extent. But lemmings know only one thing: to follow...blindly, obediently follow. 'Nuff said...

[Bahadur]

Zander:
Well, there was that North Korean missile that flew over northern Japan and crashed into the Pacific. Reckon the Japanese are a little bit nervous about the nukes in North Korea?Yup. That was one of those steps in the wrong direction. Will there be further steps that lead to Japan's nuclear armament? There could be, but I doubt it.
I do agree with you...the Japanese are indeed a country of lemmings to an embarrassing extent. But lemmings know only one thing: to follow...blindly, obediently follow. 'Nuff said...I disagree. There is certainly more "group-think" in Japan than in the US on the surface, but conformism isn't exactly weak in the US today.

If I, as an American, can be a bit self-critical about it, the Japanese "group-think" is for social benefit and harmony (however misguided that may be, both in practice and conceptually) whereas much of our American conformism tends to be for illogical fads and political fantasy indulgences ("save the children") and self-serving enrichment.

Do I think the Japanese are better? No. That doesn't mean there isn't something to learn from other cultures. Nor does that mean we should stereotype people from them.

Japanese are not lemmings who blindly, obediently follow (their political opposition, including the socialists and the Buddhist parties are an indication). Now, North Koreans... they are, for the most part, a brainwashed, robotic bunch (they are basically beaten into it from childhood). Even they, however, show natural human traits like humor in one-on-one or small group settings without their minders (I speak from personal experiences).

We're all pretty much the same - only we adapt to our circumstances. Of course, there are the rare few who overcome their circumstances. Thanks to one group of such people called the Founding Fathers, we now enjoy an infinitely better set of circumstances than North Koreans do.

[BigG]

With all due respect, as an American, I view an armed Japan as a bigger threat to the USA than any asset it could possibly be. When our economy gets a sniffle, theirs goes into cardiac arrest and it is just too tempting for their militaristic tradition to go get somebody else's stuff. Sorry, I just believe the old axiom. They who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it. Sixty years may seem long in the span of one human life but it is a mere blink in the big scheme of things.

[Joe Demko]

I am unconvinced that the cultural factors that eventually led Imperial Japan to commit such intemperate acts have vanished in less than sixty years. They are more than armed enough already to suit me, thanks.

[Bahadur]

Golgo-13:
I am unconvinced that the cultural factors that eventually led Imperial Japan to commit such intemperate acts have vanished in less than sixty years.Well, let's have a little historical perspective.

Prior to the Meiji Restoration (1867-1868), the vast majority of the Japanese peasantry was unwarlike. The Tokugawa Shogunate basically maintained a monopoly on the means of war. Commoners were not allowed to possess instruments of war. The lower rung of the ruling elite, the serving warriors (the Zi-Samurai, the "ones who serve") oppressed the defenseless peasants and maintained them in "peaceful" bondage.

The restoration of imperial power (it wasn't really a restoration as the emperor had NEVER had such power during much of medieval Japanese history) and the militarism-nationalism that was introduced and enforced in the mold of Prussia-Germany transformed within 60 years, the peaceful (if oppressed) Japanese peasants into a powerful recruiting pool of fanatical modern "warriors" dedicated to dying to serve the emperor.

Sixty years! In the early 1940's, these grandchildren of unwarlike peasants went on to terrorize the professional Indian soldiers of the British Army in the Pacific, who had been the receptacle for hundreds of years of fierce warrior traditions, not to mention substantially longer "modern" militarization by the British. Sixty years!

The terrifying destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not to mention the firebombing of pretty much all their cities, followed by the humiliating occupation, during which their godly emperor became an ordinary mortal, profoundly shocked the Japanese national psyche. The Japanese might not apologize for the effects of militarism of their older generations on their neighbors, but they sure do equate that militarism with an unmitigated disaster for Japan (a humiliating and society-altering defeat).

Furthermore, the unconditional, singular victors, the Americans, went about re-inventing Japan with a radically new constitution and a host of other society-altering structural and institutional changes.

Are sixty years enough to turn fanatics into pacifists? Usually not. But in extraordinary circumstances, it is just as possible as unwarlike peasants turning into fanatical warriors in sixty years.

Cultures changes, because a "culture" is nothing but an adaptation of the environment (in the total sense, not just biological). If the environment changes, the institutions change (by an external force) and the culture changes.

Look at us. Sixty years ago, we had the greatest generation - those who survived the Depression and fought a great, noble war. Look at 18 year-olds today and tell me that these are the same people. A culture changes...

BigG:
They who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it.And the Japanese do not wish to re-live the consequence of their earlier militarism. Lessons in defeat are painfully more conscious than the joys of victory.

[BigG]

Look at us. Sixty years ago, we had the greatest generation - those who survived the Depression and fought a great, noble war. Look at 18 year-olds today and tell me that these are the same people.

Bahadur: American history shows that we have had our ups and downs as warriors, also. There have been lapses in the commitment of youth before now. Still, when the need arises a hero somehow appears. Look at "Lil Texas" Audie Murphy, an unlikely hero, but part of the greatest generation. I sincerely hope you are wrong in your assessment of the nation's youth. :)