Colt gets the Fickle Finger Award this month. C'mon guys. Ya had to know I'd get around to'em sooner or later. :D
I've got a stainless XSE Commander that I bought from a neighbor who
fell on hard times, and had shot the gun very little. Although I didn't
care for some of the features, the price was right...so I bought it.
I had to recut the "Dimple" throat to get it to feed something besides ball...but that's not really a biggie...and I did my usual attention to detail
to insure that the gun was reliable...which it is. I ran 500 rounds through the gun, cleaned it up, and laid it aside for 2 years.
Last week, during my MIM to Real Steel upgrade on the trigger group,
I noticed something that could have proven to be a major problem had I
carried the gun, and it was with the Series 80 safety system. The system
is, IMHO, the best of the lot in additional drop-safe mechanisms, and I've
only seen/heard of this particular problem in about 1% of the Series 80 Colts...but one in a hundred is one too many if the pistol fails to function
in an emergency. (By the way...The system isn't Colt's idea. They
"borrowed" it from Walther. Have a look at a P-38 and see what you think.)
I noticed a rough, burred area on the slide plunger. Not bad, but enough that I knew that the levers weren't lifting the plunger high enough to let the firing pin get clear of it...and could have either kept the firing pin from hitting the primer...kept the firing pin from rebounding and caused a
failure to feed on the next round...and maybe could have broken the
firing pin from unlocking the barrel with the pin still held against the
A quick-check revealed that the plunger lever didn't stand high enough
off the top of the frame. .060 to .075 inch is good for correct timing of the plunger when the slack is taken out of the trigger...and .090 to .110 inch
with the trigger fully rearward. The height is adjustable by using different
plunger levers, but I didn't have any except the #1s...but I did notice that the
trigger stirrup sat just a little below flush in the frame, so I picked through
my spares until I found one that was to spec and installed it in the gun.
(It 's a long nylon Colt trigger out of an old 1991a1)
With the trigger in place, the lever just barely made it to the low-end of spec...about .061 inch off the frame with the slack out...and .093 with the trigger pulled. I chucked the plunger in a lathe and used a fine file to smooth out the burred area, and bevel it just a bit so it didn't need to
lift as high in the slide to clear the firing pin. The plunger now releases the
firing pin just before the hammer breaks. Acceptable, but it's not really
confidence-inspiring. I'll give Colt a call today to see if I can get a #2 lever.
Meanwhile...the gun is a range toy until I'm satisfied with it.
My rant: It takes about 15 seconds to insure that the timing is right on that plunger lever...and the tolerance...a full 64th of an inch...is a football field.
Why didn't somebody catch it? This is one of those "Blind Faith" things that can get somebody killed on the street. Unacceptable!
Check your plunger for a burr at the bottom edge of the curve. If it's damaged...even slightly...you may want to get it squared away before carrying the gun.
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August 12, 2004, 09:03 AM
Your rant exemplifies the reason why I own a Springfield and not a Colt!!!!
August 12, 2004, 09:11 AM
Your rant exemplifies the reason why I own a Springfield and not a Colt
Sadly, mistrust of the Series 80 system is one of the big reasons that
Springfield is chosen over Colt for people who understand the issues.
The Series system is actually very good, when correctly timed. I have
4 Series 80 pistols, and this is the first time that I've seen this problem in
MY guns...and only in one other Colt that I've had apart for somebody else...and I tear down a lotta Colts for cleaning and inspection for other people.
A quick check can verify the timing...and it's a quick-fix when a problem is found. Aggravating...just like the strut issue on a Springfield...but not
complicated or expensive to correct.
Anybody else had this problem with Series 80s? Sing out!
August 12, 2004, 10:17 AM
Tuner, question if I may:
Is the "higher" plunger lever actually have a higher lever or does it engage the other lever, "bird's head" sooner, thereby lifting the lever sooner and higher? If that made sense :)
I have found "ridges, wear so to speak" on the both levers and the trigger stirrup. No function issues, but I did clean them up.
Perhaps it's best just to replace these parts every 20,000 or so??
It would be nice if the "levers" were "engaged" during the takeup of the trigger instead of after, at least in mine.
Enough rambling on my part, I do like the series 80 a lot to be honest.
August 12, 2004, 10:22 AM
Rant on oh great Tuner! I would never consider a series 80 Colt for defense. That's why I have a series 70 & an SA. I keep my series 80 .38 Super only as a target shooter. Did you finally decide that the hammer strut problems on SA's are most likely due to the silly ILS system? If so, I am OK since I changed out the ILS "guts" on my GI. :cool:
August 12, 2004, 10:42 AM
The frame levers should be engaged during the take-up, before the sear trips. The plunger lever...the top one...should stand above the frame
from .060-.075 inch...and .090-.110 inch at full trigger travel.
The #2 lever will rise higher above the frame due to the slightly different
geometryand dimension where the trigger lever contacts it. There's no difference in the lower levers except in the dimensional tolerances. Tge difference is all in the upper lever.
Changing those parts at regular intervals might not be a bad idea. The alternative is to remove the parts and use the frame blank for range sessions to forestall wear on'em. It's a little aggravating to detail-strip the gun twice per session...but it's a good way to learn to strip and reassemble the Series 80 Colts in a hurry.
WB...Still not sure on the strut issue. My gut feelin' is that it's a
combination of poor materials, the heavy mainspring, and the altered
geometry within the housing itself all playing a role in the snapped struts.
If I'm right, the stronger Colt strut will fare much better and last much longer within the ILS system, but it will also likely fail sooner than it would in a standard mainspring housing. This may make changing the strut at regular intervals a good idea. Still haven't had time to put that theory to a test, but it's probably best to err on the side of caution if you retain the ILS system. I'd venture a guess that installing a new strut and hammer pin every 5 years or 20,000 rounds would be a good baseline...Less often if you don't keep the gun in Condition One continually.
Clearing tha gun and lowering the hammer 3-4 times a week overnight would probably reduce the need for frequent change. Colt struts are
cheap insurance against breakage...Changing it out every 5 years wouldn't
exactly break the bank.
August 12, 2004, 10:55 AM
Seems as if I have mentioned this condition before ...:rolleyes:
I have seen three cases of "battered plunger syndrome," caused by the levers not lifting the block high enough, and two that didn't work because of a backlash screw in an aftermarket trigger (one isn't cool or tactical if the trigger doesn't have holes in the fingerpiece and a screw in the face of it).
I never thought to check the length of the trigger bow. Now I've learned to take NOTHING for granted.
Yes, Tuner - Colt probably got the idea from Walther, but in that model the lever unlocks the firing pin well before the hammer's released, and there is only one lever involved. Last but not least, the feature was part of the original design, not a later atempt to cobble something up to make the legal department and Brady Bunch feel warm and fuzzy. :fire: :banghead:
Colt, like most of the other gunmakers, are having trouble getting the kind of help that "do it right," and keeping them when they do. Also many assembly workers do their thing on a "piecework plan" where the more you make the more you earn.
For the reasons stated above, and more - I don't own a Series 80 gun, and likely won't. What I've seen have been on pistols belonging to others. Same can be said about a Springer, but if that should change the mainspring housing will get pitched so fast it woun't be able to find it's own shadow. :what:
It is indeed a sad day when a customer is expected to de-bug and correct a recent purchase. But that's apparently how it is. :barf: :barf: :mad:
August 12, 2004, 10:59 AM
:eek: Repent, sinner! :eek:
Ok, :p I haven't had any fails to go bang in about a dozen of those defective Series 80 triggers. Glad you were able to spot the trouble with yours, bud. BTW, you never said it failed to go off during your 500 round shakedown. :confused: I think you are a little bit like one of my brothers, who can't stand to leave something alone but always tries to "improve" it. ;)
August 12, 2004, 10:59 AM
Check your plunger for a burr at the bottom edge of the curve.
That's why I keep my plungers where I can easily examine them: In a clear plastic baggie, rather than in the slide, where they're harder to see. :D :p
(Although, truth be told, I don't think I've ever had someone drag in a Series 80 with a non-functioning firing pin safety in the last ten years. Then again, nobody's ever brought in a busted Springer hammer strut, either. "Can happen" and "will happen" are, thankfully, two different things.)
August 12, 2004, 11:00 AM
One of my 1911s is the Series 70 Colt.
Are there any issues with THAT gun that we owners should know about?
August 12, 2004, 11:28 AM
Fuff...yep. I've noticed it before, but this is the first time that
I've seen a short trigger bow contribute to it...In all fairness, I've seen the overtravel screw cause the problem several times, but considered that to be problem with the Crank on the Bench Syndrome. Pull the screw out and stick it in File Thirteen.
That's why I keep my plungers where I can easily examine them: In a clear plastic baggie, rather than in the slide, where they're harder to see.
Me too... :cool: My 80s are range beaters. I do occasionally carry a
Series 80 LW Commander with all parts installed...but it's been thoroughly
checked out and given a clean bill. All others are pure JMB.
Then again, nobody's ever brought in a busted Springer hammer strut, either. "Can happen" and "will happen" are, thankfully, two different things.)
Thankfully, that's true. I just like to eliminate the chances inasmuch as possible. A good strut is about 4 bucks, and takes 10 minutes to switch out. Why NOT do it? A good extractor is 25 or 30 dollars, and is usually one of the first things that knowledgeable folks will upgrade. A busted strut and a busted extractor are both things that will get you dead.
BTW, you never said it failed to go off during your 500 round shakedown.
True...but with use, as that burr gets burrier and burrier, that's subject to change. The concern isn't goin' bang...it's rather that the firing pin won't
rebound, and will either tie up the gun as the next round tries to slide up
the breechface, or feed and fire out of battery. Either one is bad JuJu...
especially firing out of battery less than two feet from your nose.
I think you are a little bit like one of my brothers, who can't stand to leave something alone but always tries to "improve" it.
Only if it needs improvement, mah fren. Correcting something that's not right ain't tinkerin'. If MY life might hang in the balance, I want it to be right. Just because a pistol functions doesn't mean that it's functioning correctly. That...is the essence of fine-tunin'. :cool:
August 12, 2004, 11:40 AM
Fascinating reading Johnny ..... even to this relative 1911 greenhorn!
Question tho ... and I daresay I should not have to ask it but - I have not yet really grasped the major differences/similarities between series 70 and 80 ...... but would like to feel better informed.
Is it possible to summarize?
August 12, 2004, 12:07 PM
Is it possible to summarize?
Series 80 guns have three little parts that prevent the firing pin from going forward unless the trigger is pulled. Series 70s do not.
Those three parts do not affect the accurqacy of the weapon, nor the trigger pull in a properly tuned gun, no4 the usability. They do however, provide a means by which guys on the internet can be gun snobs by owning series 70s and crowing that their guns are superior (without of course evidence that they are):what: :neener:
Havent seen a colt that I can recall with plunger probs.....
BTW, I have a series 70 (and a 90)
August 12, 2004, 12:19 PM
First off, understand that my experience with my 1911's consists of shooting, field stripping and cleaning. Everything else is left to my capable 'smith "Roscoe".
I bought a series 80 govt. model from a retired Marine firearms instructor because the price was right. He claimed it had about 700 rounds through it, but it looked like it had been disassembled at least that many times. The stock trigger was horrible, I'm guessing 10-12 lbs. Roscoe took the pistol and replaced the trigger, grip safety, hammer and a few other parts.
About 100 rounds down the road, the thing started misfiring about every 5 rounds, so back to Roscoe it went. He brought it back and gave me this little part that I assume is your plunger. It was about 1/2" long and maybe .200" in diameter with a groove machined in it (I think). The shoulders on the groove were battered and that was causing the misfiring. Roscoe fixed it up.
Now I've had at least 3000 rounds through the gun with no other problems. It's strictly a range and IPSC gun although I carry it on my own place for coyotes and such occasionally.
August 12, 2004, 12:24 PM
Series 70 vs 80: The ORIGINAL Series 70 was actually a cheapened version of the old standard Government Model. It's main distinguishing feature (other than a rougher finish and large slide markings) was a spring finger bushing with a corresponding enlarged OD on the bbl exterior towards the muzzle.
The Series 80 is what Wildalaska said. IMHO, the Series 80 is actually a nicer pistol, better finished etc. than the OLD Series 70.
Since Colt reissued the Series 70 it is probably as good as the Series 80 in terms of fit and finish. I don't know wheter the NEW Series 70 has the spring finger bushing or a solid bushing.
This stuff is all my opinion, YMMV
August 12, 2004, 12:27 PM
It's main distinguishing feature (other than a rougher finish and large slide markings)...
Between legislation mandating "safer" products, increasing stockholder pressure for higher returns, revolving doors for CEO's, and the outsourcing of parts to third world countries, the quality of everything is going down IMO.
August 12, 2004, 12:58 PM
I've got two new Series 80 Colts on the way....one blued and one stainless....
Can I just remove the Series 80 parts entirely?
Will the gun effectively be as JMB designed it if I do so?
Will removing the Ser. 80 parts cause any troubles whatsoever?
August 12, 2004, 01:02 PM
Can I just remove the Series 80 parts entirely?
You can, but since you live in California, I'm not sure that you may. (The Series 80 bits are what allow the Colt to pass the Drop Test.) Dunno how CADOJ looks on removing features after the gun is imported.
I took mine out on my Series 80 Enhanced and my Delta Elite and filled the holes with the shim kit available from Brownell's. The effect on the trigger pull is unnoticeable except when dryfiring, but I always figgered that fewer bits are better bits, especially when they're moving bits. :)
Unless they actually cause you problems, which I can purt' near guarantee they won't, leave 'em in and don't worry about it. I just yanked mine so I can be all gun snobby and all.
August 12, 2004, 01:08 PM
Can I just remove the Series 80 parts entirely?
FWIW, I removed the ILS on my Springfield when I changed the MSH. :eek:
I have no idea whether CADOJ would approve or not. It's my pistol, I'll do what I want with it.
August 12, 2004, 01:09 PM
Thanks, Tam. :)
Of course I'm aware of the potential legal concerns.
However, since it is only a drop-safe and not something like the thumb or grip safety, I can't see it being a HUGE deal. At least, I hope!
Do they inspect firearms used in shootings that closely anyway?
Say I did shoot someone in SD and it was a CLEAN shoot: would they strip my gun to make sure it had all the bits from the factory? :confused:
Anyhow, what "holes" are you talking about? I think I've read that, if one removes the Ser. 80 junk, there are some holes in the slide/frame, is that what you are talking about?
August 12, 2004, 01:25 PM
BigG pretty well nailed the question. The original pistols are technically
pre-Series 70s..or simply 1911s and 1911-A1s...but I ain't gonna get picky.
The Series 80 pistols have FOUR additional parts. Two levers in the frame, and a plunger and spring in the slide. It's actually a pretty ingenious
(re)design, and when timed right, works very well. As stated...I've seen very few Series 80s that were wrong. I shot two of mine for years and thousands of rounds before I removed the parts with zero trouble, and
would feel perfectly comfortable carrying one of them with all parts installed. When something does go wrong with the system, it's pretty easy to fix.
There are other subtle differences in some of the parts. The firing pin and extractor are different, and the firing pin stop and grip safety are too. All
else is standard. The Series 80 parts mentioned above can be used in a 70 or pre-70 pistol...Springfield included...without modification, but 70 and pre-70 parts can't be used in Series 80 pistols unless all Series 80 safety
parts are removed.
To answer Drjones...yes. The parts can be completely removed,
but a shim or frame blank is required to take up the space left by the
two levers. The part is $4.25 from Browells, and is easy to install.
The slide will have a hole on the underside where the plunger used to be, but it won't cause a problem as long as the firing pin and spring are kept clean...which is a good idea anyway. At that point, Series 70 or 80
firing pins, extractors, grip safeties, and firing pin stops may be used in the gun interchangeably...and it will be, for the most part, as JMB intended. The Series 80 firing pins are a shade lighter than the 70 firing pins, which is a bonus IMO. The function of the gun won't be compromised in any way
with the removal of the parts.
On a final note, most Series 80 pistols that I've seen have much shorter, lighter firing pin springs than spec, and should be replaced with standard
springs if the safety parts are removed. The only added safety accomplished by the Series 80 system is in making it more drop safe. It's
incorrectly assumed that the Series 80 pistols are "safer" to carry in Condition One than a 70 or pre-70 but it's a myth perpetrated by those who don't understand the 1911 design. Assuming that the pistol and all its parts are sound and in good shape, the older design is no less safe in
Condition One than a Series 80.
Hope this helps!
August 12, 2004, 01:37 PM
As my hero Al Borland says to Tim 'The Tool Man' Taylor, "I don't think so Tim".
I don't know the specific causes of my problem with the Series 80, only that it didn't work. Sometimes the pistol would go 'bang' like its supposed to. Other times it would just 'snap' and leave a small dimple on the primer.
Whatever the cause, even new Series 80 parts didn't rectify the problem.
I did like Tamara and put both sets of Series 80 parts in a baggie. My friendly neighborhood gun mechanic installed Series 70 stuff back in the pistol.
In all fairness, Colt was experiencing both labor and management problems then. In an effort to boost short term sales, maybe Quality Control standards were relaxed. I dunno. Maybe the QC guy at the time was simply asleep at the wheel.
For whatever reason (s), the Series 80 isn't real high on my list of favorite developments.
August 12, 2004, 01:38 PM
Further thx for the 70/80 illumination ... :)
August 12, 2004, 02:37 PM
My 1991A1 upper has the plunger thing removed, as it sits on a series 70-ish ODI lower.
So... I don't own anything with series 80 'features'.
August 12, 2004, 07:00 PM
The Old Fuff, irascible reprobate that he is, would put Series 80 Colts where the sun don’t shine, but he is aware that some actually like the “Brady safety,” so out of respect to Tuner and a few other misguided individuals he has turned his feeble attention toward finding an acceptable solution, other then junking the whole gun or getting someone in California or some other such unfortunate place into trouble they don’t deserve.
The real cause behind the problem is that the folks at Colt tried to devise a system where hand fitting of parts wouldn’t be necessary. Consequently the assembler simply picks out number parts (the higher the number the bigger the part) and finds a combination that works. If for whatever reason the assembler doesn’t pick the right numbers/parts the ultimate buyer may be in a world of hurt – but then, what else is new?
Now if some enterprising after-market part supplier would tool up and make an upper lever with a pad on the front a pistolsmith (or whoever) could file the pad down to get an exact fit for whatever particular gun. A minor problem with a short trigger bow could be easily accommodated.
Colt’s problem is that economics preclude using this sort of individual fitting. But someone with Tuner’s skill and a custom “Fuff lever” could quickly make the Series 80 system completely reliable on an individual gun basis. I think if I ever have the misfortune of owning one of these guns I will probably take my own advise – it isn’t that hard to make a lever.
August 12, 2004, 08:46 PM
Tamara had the answer here. These parts always leave my shop in a little plastic bag with orders to put them in your sock (panty hose) drawer. I wrote the serial number on the bag and there they go. I consider this a "wonderful solution to a non existant problem", as Jeff Cooper would say. Some ignorant folks like to install after-market triggers in these guns and then adjust the over-travel. This keeps the top lever from coming up 1/10th of an inch which it has to do in order to not nick the firing pin. If you insist on replacing the trigger, throw that screw away. May of the finest pistolsmiths like these parts and have no problem making them work. I would not waste my time when I can install a shim and call it good to go. I do not have any clients that would climb a 20 foot ladder and drop the gun nose down with a round in the chamber onto the cement to see if they can make it go BOOM! This '80 series crap came out at about the time I started building Custom Caspians. As have mentioned before, my son has what I believe to have the first one ( FG 19000) and I bought it cheap because it would not fire a round. I turned that piece of Junque into a Silk Purse when I tweaked it and had the lower end hard chromed and the top end bright blued. Fixed combat sights and a shooter. It was a hard job, too. I would not have one in the yard.
August 12, 2004, 09:47 PM
so out of respect to Tuner and a few other misguided individuals
Ouch! OW! Yowtch!:D
Okay...O-Kay. I had that comin'... Now Fuff, I never said that I preferred
Colt's lawyer parts...or even that I liked'em. I just meant that if the system
is "right", it's reliable. I would advise everybody to be dead sure that
it is, in fact right before trustin' it. Take five minutes to pull the plunger and check it for burrs and buggers.
Ya gotta admit that it's better than that Shwartz thingie that Kimber and
Smith & Wesson use though...:p
Now, I kinda like that idea that Fuff had...A universal oversized plunger lever that lets a fella TUNE the system...Might be somethin for me to try
when the weather turns bad and I can't get out to work the dogs.
August 12, 2004, 10:26 PM
Now Tuner, I didn’t mean ta’ dig ya, and if you feel a twitch between your ribs … well … then …
No indeed, what I said was meant as a compliment. While most folks (including me) what to put those “Brady parts” in some drawer, never to see the light of day again … you, and only you want to make the (##^**$$) thing work.
There are some nice people in places like California that could in theory get into big trouble by removing the “approved” safety. Others, for various reasons are required to keep it in their sidearms.
I agree that bad as it is, the other designs that keep cropping up are no better and likely are worse. So maybe rather then cuss the darn thing some thought should go into how to make it work.
A custom lever shouldn’t be expensive in relative terms and would likely cost a lot less then doing a full Series 80 to Series 70 conversion, and if the safety REALLY worked it might even be tolerable.
So the challenge is there. …
August 12, 2004, 10:55 PM
Well...............................................Chuck Rogers has been tweaking these levers for years. He can make them perfect every time. So can Don Williams and Ted Yost. These guys work with them every day and they generally do NOT DISABLE any safety feature on any gun. I was different because I am not worried about the imaginary things that Lawyers Might Do! I would always rather be sued than have to explain to a Widow Lady why the Gun Failed and her husband is dead. These parts can cause malfunctions, but so can any other part in these 1911 45 AUTOMATICS. I just feel they are just another thing to make Mr. Murphy Jump For JOY!
August 12, 2004, 11:38 PM
Well...............................................Chuck Rogers has been tweaking these levers for years. He can make them perfect every time. So can Don Williams and Ted Yost.
And now you can add ol' Tunerfish to your list, Cap'n...:D
It ain't like it's rocket science or nuthin'...Colt even has levers that come
in different sizes just so's ya CAN tweak'em...but you already knew that.:p
I still like Fuff's idea of a "Gunsmith Fit" lever, so ya don't hafta buy a whole
set just ta find the right one...:rolleyes: I likes it...Yessiree I does.
Just goes ta sho how somebody with brains can think of good stuff.
August 13, 2004, 12:36 AM
I just yanked mine so I can be all gun snobby and all.
Durn it Tam, I expected better of ya...working at being a gun snob? Thas worse that just bein one naturally....dont you tell me you put a squeez cocker on a Glock now:what: :neener:
Now as to the rest, Im reminded of the guy who walked in an wanted us to accurize his Rem 700 (338)...when I asked him how it was shootin, he gave me a 100 yard tareget with three shots touchin...
He was upset when I told him to leave it alone, guess some folks just have to fiddle at times...
August 13, 2004, 12:44 AM
It is discussions like this and a recent thread at TF.com by a SEAL saying that he has seen problems with the series 80 levers being liable to corrosion in extremely wet conditions and tying up the gun, that have me thinking about selling my perfectly reliable NRM SS 1991 and ponying up for a new blued series 70 to sit alongside my series I Kimber.
Then the search is on for NOS Colt series 70 spur or commander hammer and an un-recessed grip safety (Colt uses series 80 small parts in the series 70 guns)--Okay, yes, I am a little OCD about my guns.
But at the ripe old age of 29 I find myself _only_ listening to grumpy old men. Listening to the experienced preach the gospel and ignoring the "tactical" ninjas.
Already looked over the parked 870P's to get one in gloss blue. What's next??--selling my Glocks?
August 13, 2004, 01:03 AM
recent thread at TF.com by a SEAL saying that he has seen problems with the series 80 levers being liable to corrosion in extremely wet conditions and tying up the gun
Now is that a real SEAL or an internet SEAL :neener: Thought they kept their guns clean....
Funny he complains about corrosion tying up the series 80 lever, but will I am sure sing the praises of sSIGs with their fragile trigger springs....
Ya know...I don't remember seein' a single issue with any of the
early Series 80 safety groups...ever...and in those days, I was curious enough about it to tear one of the guns down every time I had an opportunity...just to have a look-see. All the ones that I've seen or heard of are late-production guns...maybe 3-4 old years up to the present.
I like your rants tuner. Every single manufacturer out there deserves at least one. Keep up the good work!
August 13, 2004, 03:00 PM
I can't wait for the Glock and SIG rants. ;)
August 13, 2004, 04:33 PM
Ahh..Thanks NMSHooter...I was startin' to think I was makin' folks mad
I can't wait for the Glock and SIG rants.
Sorry brudder...Ain't got either one, and don't work on either one, so I'll hafta confine my ravings to the 1911 clones...but I hear tell of a few common issues with the GSR.:scrutiny: Dunno how true it is or how many
are havin' problems.:scrutiny: But I'll find out.:scrutiny: