"Looters Will Be Killed" ???


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David
August 14, 2004, 05:45 PM
I found this photo of a guy protecting himself and his property with a shotgun after Florida's Hurricane Charley.

I hope this photo comes out okay as I have had trouble posting photos in the past on THR. :uhoh:

By the way, here is a link to the online story which contains this photo so perhaps another THR member can download this photo to this thread:

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/main.adp

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Zundfolge
August 14, 2004, 06:06 PM
AOL news doesn't allow us non AOL users to log on so we can't even see the story :( but here's the pic as a .jpg so it can be viewed by people in the browser :)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1181362

firearms_instructor
August 14, 2004, 06:07 PM
Florida does not allow lethal force in defense of property. God forbid he should actually have to shoot someone in legitimate self-defense, a shyster lawyer could have a field day with that picture, showing (allegedly) that he committed "premeditated murder".

He should change his sign to "Looters will be sternly lectured and looked at crossly!"

Zundfolge
August 14, 2004, 06:08 PM
I was thinking he must be pretty confident in his shooting ... wouldn't it be better to say "Looters will be shot!"?

mountainclmbr
August 14, 2004, 06:14 PM
After Andrew there was a great deal of looting and a great deal of people who were on their own to protect themselves and their property. A shotgun comes in very handy in a natural disaster.

The eye of the storm went directly over my mom's house in Polk County. Many oak tree branches broken off, but all missed her house. Central Florida is not as bad as Homestead, but I still wish she would keep a gun.

firearms_instructor
August 14, 2004, 06:21 PM
After Andrew there was a great deal of looting and a great deal of people who were on their own to protect themselves and their property. A shotgun comes in very handy in a natural disaster.

Absolutely. The guy should be armed to the hilt. I would be, and I am. Thank God the hurricane spared us.

I'm merely questioning the wisdom of his sign in view of state law and the litigious (criminal empowerment) times we find ourselves in. Especially since the newsies photographed it and are probably wringing their hands and wetting their beds over it.

Pilgrim
August 14, 2004, 06:27 PM
After Andrew there was a great deal of looting and a great deal of people who were on their own to protect themselves and their property. A shotgun comes in very handy in a natural disaster.

I seem to recall reading an article in a gun rag about the post-hurricane Andrew scene that stated that when the word got out the National Guard troops weren't permitted to load their weapons, a few Guardmen were mugged and their weapons stolen by looters.



Pilgrim

cls12vg30
August 14, 2004, 06:27 PM
Charley was an absolute fizzle for us. It made landfall again near the SC/NC line, and then swept northeast along the Carolina shore. Here in Raleigh it wasn't abnormally windy and it didn't even rain that hard.

HankB
August 14, 2004, 06:46 PM
. . . when the word got out the National Guard troops weren't permitted to load their weapons, a few Guardmen were mugged and their weapons stolen . . . One of my friends was in the NG some years back when they were called out from time to time during the days of, shall we say, urban unrest. He was never issued ammo . . . but he and his squadmates always had some.

Ohen Cepel
August 14, 2004, 06:55 PM
Sounds like a solid policy to me!

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
August 14, 2004, 07:07 PM
I say a strong audio-visual aid works wonders during a presentation.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Pilgrim
August 14, 2004, 08:12 PM
One of my friends was in the NG some years back when they were called out from time to time during the days of, shall we say, urban unrest. He was never issued ammo . . . but he and his squadmates always had some.

When the National Guard company in my home town in the PDRK was activated to deal with the Rodney King riot in 1992, the Guardsmen went to my friendly neighborhood gun shop owner and bought up all the .223 and 9mm ammo he had. They knew what was coming.

Sure enough, the Guard was delayed at least a day in deploying to Los Angeles because the Guard didn't have enough ammunition. There was talk of deploying the Guard where the squad leaders were the only ones who would have some ammunition so they could protect the members of their squads.

Pilgrim

Mannlicher
August 14, 2004, 08:45 PM
Firearms instructor says :Gosh, that's not real smart...
Florida does not allow lethal force in defense of property. God forbid he should actually have to shoot someone in legitimate self-defense, a shyster lawyer could have a field day with that picture, showing (allegedly) that he committed "premeditated murder".

Heck, under these circumstances,I'd shoot a looter in a moment. Obviously you have not been through one of these events, where you lose everything, and even possibably have a family member injured or killed. Times like those, what some lawyer down the road will do is of small import.


__________________

spartacus2002
August 14, 2004, 08:48 PM
Regardless of the legality or practicality, I will bet you he doesn't get looted....

geegee
August 14, 2004, 09:31 PM
I was just watching Fox News, as they interviewed a National Guard officer. He was being interviewed in regard to security and looting issues (as they showed a destroyed trailer park). As he was talking, I was thinking to myself "So you folks are thinking that the survivors of a trailer park in Florida aren't armed, and willing to guard what little property they have left?" :rolleyes:

David
August 14, 2004, 09:32 PM
I wonder how many other victims of Hurricane Charley are patrolling their communities while OPENLY armed?

What would Florida police officers likely do if they observed an OPENLY armed citizen in the Hurricane area?

Does the fact that many parts of Florida have been declared a "major disaster area" allow citizens to be OPENLY armed?

From this story about Hurricane Charley:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/08/15/whurr15.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/08/15/ixworld.html

"Back in Punta Gorda, Terry Frey, 55, patrolled his damaged single-storey home with a pistol tucked in his belt, accompanied by his son Fred, 33, who was armed with a rifle. "Looters will be killed," they had scrawled in black paint on the outer walls.

"I'm not taking any chances," said Mr Frey, who fled his home with nine cats, three dogs and four rabbits before Hurricane Charley struck. "I'm not getting through all this just for someone to come helping themselves to my life."
******
:scrutiny: :what: :scrutiny:

Just my 2 cents...

AVESguy
August 14, 2004, 09:49 PM
the Palm Beach Post had a photo of a woman in what was left of her jewelry store in Port Charlotte carrying a S&W revolver.

Zundfolge
August 14, 2004, 09:50 PM
Does the fact that many parts of Florida have been declared a "major disaster area" allow citizens to be OPENLY armed?

I would be willing to bet that under such times of crisis the opposite is true ... I bet the law allows the "authorities" to seize arms and disarm the populace ... along with the suspension of other rights.

MR.G
August 14, 2004, 09:56 PM
Sometimes just the threat will keep the looters away. The sign is a good idea. Why would a looter go to the property with that sign when there are pleanty of others without someone with a gun. Besides that sign and remaining wall can disapear after a defensive shooting. We were lucky and the storm missed us, but if it hadn't my property would have the same sign. BTW the Castle Doctrine applies in Florida, and should still apply, even if all of your walls are not standing. Friday we were said to be the storms target, and a lot of the people in my neighborhood were boarding up and making last minute plans. There were a lot of people out talking to each other about what to expect. I brought up the subject of looting and guns several times, and was shocked to learn that most of my neighbors didn't own any firearms. Maby I live in the wrong neighborhood.

Lone_Gunman
August 14, 2004, 09:57 PM
Heck, under these circumstances,I'd shoot a looter in a moment. Obviously you have not been through one of these events, where you lose everything, and even possibably have a family member injured or killed. Times like those, what some lawyer down the road will do is of small import.


Small import? I think you would likely get charged with first degree murder. The death penalty is kind of important, even if your house has been destroyed by a hurricane.

Standing Wolf
August 14, 2004, 09:58 PM
Oh, gosh! I sure do hope Florida's criminals can read!

cracked butt
August 14, 2004, 10:12 PM
I think the sign is a good idea- it tells would-be criminals exactly where you stand. If a criminal is dumb enough to challenge the property owner, the criminal would probably be armed, giving the man the right to defend himself.

Detachment Charlie
August 15, 2004, 01:26 AM
I seem to remember a quote from a Miami police chief that got him fired several years back:
"When the lootin' starts, the shootin' starts."
They couldn't handle the truth.

M2 Carbine
August 15, 2004, 02:07 AM
During the riots in the mid 60's (Maryland) I was told I was needed as a platoon leader (Warrant Officer, National Guard).
I said , OK should I draw a 45 and ammo or can I carry my own.

They said no ammo, no one will be allowed to carry ammo.

I said that's horse ****. No way am I going into a riot or am I sending anyone else into a riot with empty weapons. I'll go buy the 30.06 and Carbine ammo myself.

They decided they didn't need me.

They wouldn't even let me fly over the rioters.
Afraid something heavy might fall off the helicopter. :D


Two of my brothers got in a bad way because the rioters knew they had empty rifles.
Lucky they didn't get hurt.

My police friends told me they had to carry their guns EMPTY.

The maggot politicians didn't care if a Guardsman or Policeman was hurt
as long as a "voter" wasn't hurt.

cracked butt
August 15, 2004, 04:58 AM
So using a rifle as a club was out of the question also? What about bayonets? I would think those would be intimidating enough to keep the bad ones from getting too close.

Kharn
August 15, 2004, 07:42 AM
I remember "You Loot, I Shoot!" being painted on a house or two from previous disasters.

Kharn

Merc40
August 15, 2004, 10:10 AM
This is the actual Florida law:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. "

Here is the definition of a forcible felony:

"776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."

So in my oppinion they are justified in their defense of their homes.





2004 Florida Statues (http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0776/ch0776.htm)

AVESguy
August 15, 2004, 11:51 AM
Interesting, in today's Palm Beach Post in the hurricane coverage there was a picture of an airplane hangar at an airport that was heavily damaged. On the front of the hangar was a handpainted sign on a piece of plywood that said

NO TRESPASSING. INSURED BY SMITH & WESSON

The Post is a VERY anti 2A left wing paper, but they had two pictures like this in two days with NO editorializing.


I don't know if this link will work but....this is it.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/weather/special/storm/2004/atlantic/charley/photos2/99.html


This is the other photo of the gal in the jewelry store, if the link works..

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/storm/content/weather/special/storm/2004/atlantic/charley/photos/32.html

firearms_instructor
August 15, 2004, 11:55 AM
"776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."

I've read this, and I'm supposed to know this, but I guess 'burglary' didn't register on me when I last read this. Thanks for posting the statute, Merc40.

wouldn't it be better to say "Looters will be shot!"?

Yes, for legal reasons I think this would still be the better sign, even if Mr. Homeowner only takes head shots.

myopicmouse
August 15, 2004, 01:14 PM
Dumb to have even cops with empty guns, if they have a string from belt to gun it can't get sntached into the crowd. Either send them in loaded guns or no guns at all, it's either one or the other. In Northen Ireland you had your front row with shields & battons, and your second row didn't have riot gear, they had rifles. That way there was the distance of guns/crowd and if someone had a few shots at them, they could return fire fast without having to unsling rifles from their backs as their pals had rifles at the ready. One group for crowd control, and the other for lethal force.

DF357
August 15, 2004, 01:38 PM
he shudda written it in Spanish.

MR.G
August 15, 2004, 01:43 PM
I should know this, but unsure. What does Florida law say about the open carrying of rifles, shotguns and handguns outside your home, but on your own property?

Kharn
August 15, 2004, 01:45 PM
DF357:
"Alto, tengo un arma de fuego" is close enough to get the point across, I believe. (Halt, I have a firearm)

Kharn

XLMiguel
August 15, 2004, 01:54 PM
Looting during a state of emergency: "Smoke 'em if you got 'em" werks for me. though I'd give 'em a warning and a chance to leave (3 sec.s should do), and then a couple warning shots COM. Scum :fire:

MR.G
August 15, 2004, 02:29 PM
Florida Statutes 790.25 states that it is lawful to openly carry a firearm at your home or place of business. Does anyone know if that means outside your home, and in your yard? Or does it mean inside your home or business only?

Merc40
August 15, 2004, 02:42 PM
This is what Packin.org says on "Carrying without a Permit/License":

"Here's a paragraph from the Florida Statutes (you decide): 5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012. You can go here if you want to look into it further.

Also:
790.25 Lawful ownership, possession, and use of firearms and other weapons.-- (3) LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 and 790.06 do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes: (h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;"

Maybe if you pitch a tent in your front yard and you claim you are camping.:D

Merc40
August 15, 2004, 02:46 PM
According to Florida Gun Law in Plain English:

"Open Carry On Person
Open carry of a firearm is prohibited except in certain limited situations, such as when hunting, camping, fishing, hiking or target shooting in a lawful location. Open carry in a populated or urban area is NEVER allowed. This prohibition even applies to persons who have a Concealed Weapons License.
NOTE: It is legal for a person to openly carry a firearm, regardless of whether or not the person has a license, at his or her home or place of business. "Home" does not include areas outside of your house or apartment, such as yards, parking areas, or common hallways. "Place of business" does not include areas outside of the business premises, such as parking areas, hallways or common areas within malls, shopping centers or office buildings; nor does it include mobile "places of business" such as motor vehicles or other forms of conveyance."


Florida Gun Law in Plain English (http://www.intellistar.net/~flynn/fla-gun.html)

FRIENDLY
August 15, 2004, 08:47 PM
If someone did shoot a looter and got charged who would be on the jury but fellow victims who would probably like to hang the prosecutor. Also remember during the Rodney King riots in LA some time back the shops that werent robbed were the ones run by ARMED Korean shopkeepers who showed what they would do to protect themselves and their property.

moa
August 16, 2004, 01:24 PM
What some people do not know or forget, that in both the Rodney King riots in LA and the aftermath of hurricane Andrew in 1992, that many of the looters were armed. The Korean merchants got into firefights with armed looters.

Also, in LA during the riots the National Guard troops shot and killed a guy in a Datsun 280Z who tried twice to run them over. After that event, the Guardsmen were ordered not to load their weapons. Right after that two Guardsmen were relieved on the M16s and uniforms and gear right down to their underwear.

About a week after hurricane Andrew, the citizens of the affected areas patrolled their wrecked neighborhoods with guns, dogs and flashlights. After about a week or so, the National Guard and police showed up to take control. However, they only took control during daylight hours, and disappeard at night. So, the citizens were back to patrolling their wrecked neighborhoods with guns, dogs and flashlights.

During and after any major emergency, man made or otherwise, you can never trust public officials. They are looking out for themselves only. You are on your own.

Smurfslayer
August 16, 2004, 02:49 PM
... That's the title of a History channel show I caught dealing with Andrew. The last 15 minutes were the aftermath of Andrew. It showed in graphic detail how devastated these people were. Please keep in mind, before criticizing this brash, plain, and clear warning that these people have just lost almost everything - their home, posseessions, water, food and what emergency supplies they may have - would you just let someone walk off with them because their underprivilged selves are somehow more entitled to it than you, the rightful owner ? :rolleyes:

We don't have ANY right to call into question the methods used by the survivors to keep what's theirs. We're not in their shoes, and have no idea the desperation they may (or may not) have. For all we know the only things of value these people have may be water.

Even if FL law was silent on the matter, I think a very strong case could be made that a looter is potentially committing a life threatening act in this - stealing from a storm survivor's ruins - situation...

Merc40
August 16, 2004, 06:15 PM
I agree with you, this thread just brought up some questions about the law. If it were my home and in that situation all looters would be fair game.:D

feedthehogs
August 16, 2004, 07:47 PM
When your house is laying all over the lawn, trying to determine where the interior is is difficult.

At that point, most officers down here are pretty good about not hassling the locals unless they are walking around displaying the firearm in a negligent manner.

Mark13
August 16, 2004, 08:01 PM
I think the police would leave armed property owners alone if they weren't causing a problem or disturbing the peace. Otherwise they know they would be wasting their time. This is Florida not New England. Although, strangely, lots of northerners end up here. Up in Jax, it's more like "south Georgia". I'm not sure what the attitudes are like in south Florida regarding guns.

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