Laws against this???


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5ptdeerhunter
February 18, 2003, 03:22 PM
Are there any laws that would prevent someone under the age of 18 from going into a gun store and handling guns.

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bogie
February 18, 2003, 03:25 PM
In the PRI (Illinois), you can't touch one unless you have a FOID card.

Jeff White
February 18, 2003, 03:29 PM
That's only for Illinois residents. People who live in free states can still enter an Illinois gunshop and handle a weapon.

Jeff

blades67
February 18, 2003, 05:13 PM
Not in Arizona.

cheygriz
February 18, 2003, 05:14 PM
Not anywhere in the Rockies!

BigJake_old
February 18, 2003, 05:20 PM
Not in ohio under daft.

5ptdeerhunter
February 18, 2003, 05:28 PM
Ok but what about Michigan?

m1911joe
February 18, 2003, 05:29 PM
Unless you are a parent or guardian you can not give a miner (under 18) a hand gun. The gun store/shooting range I work at we have to give the gun to the adult. Can't give them a box of ammo to give to there parent. The adult has to come and get it.
This is in Ohio.

This is federal law. :(

Hkmp5sd
February 18, 2003, 07:00 PM
This is federal law.

This is not a federal law. Federal law prohibits the sell or transfer of a firearm to anyone under the age of 18. Holding a gun inside a gunstore, under the supervision of the licensed dealer (or his designate) is perfectly legal.

It may be covered it state laws.

MitchSchaft
February 18, 2003, 07:02 PM
There's no law against it here in TN! It's definately not Federal law.

Hkmp5sd
February 18, 2003, 07:03 PM
You can check your state laws at ATF's State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/22edition.htm)

ajacobs
February 18, 2003, 07:05 PM
It is against the law, as mentioned above in several states. In New York regardless of age you can't handle a handgun unless you have a permit.

Many dealers use this excuse or check customers age, they don't want to "waste their time" with people who can't purchase a gun until they are 21 (federal law). Or they don't want to appear to their other customers that they are selling to someone underage, or they want to limit people doing stupid things with them, like letting the slide slam forward on an empty chamber.

Don Gwinn
February 18, 2003, 07:49 PM
I found an exception in IL law the other day that I've never known was there. It turns out there's an exception for children engaging in "recreational activities." Target shooting is mentioned specifically. So if you take your kid shooting at tin cans, you should be exempted.

This is not widely known. I vividly remember being warned by the owner of Bullet Express in Springfield when I took my sister and her friend shooting. Her friend was under 21 (widely believed to be the legal age in Illinois, but apparently it's 18) and the proprietor was concerned that an off-duty policeman was shooting at the same time. He advised us to make sure we waited until the cop left before the friend handled any pistols.
Turns out that was probably unnecessary:

(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful possession of firearms or firearm ammunition when:
(1) He is under 18 years of age and has in his possession any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person;
. . . . . . . .
(c) Nothing in paragraph (1) of subsection (a) of this Section
prohibits a person under 18 years of age from participating in any lawful recreational activity with a firearm such as, but not limited to, practice shooting at targets upon established public or private target ranges or hunting, trapping, or fishing in accordance with the Wildlife Code or the Fish and Aquatic Life Code.

LevelHead
February 18, 2003, 09:02 PM
In NJ many stores won't let you touch gun without your Firearms ID. Many will however. The one's that demand say it's the law...

4thHorseman
February 18, 2003, 09:06 PM
It is against the law, as mentioned above in several states. In New York regardless of age you can't handle a handgun unless you have a permit. - ajacobs

Does that mean you can't even take your son (if he does not have a permit) to the range to target shoot?

WalHam
February 18, 2003, 10:28 PM
In Massachusetts, you can't handle a gun without showing your permit. You can look but not touch.

5ptdeerhunter
February 18, 2003, 11:04 PM
So gathering this information. My friends and I had better not try to go to the gun shop without adult supervision.

Archie
February 18, 2003, 11:33 PM
seems to have such a prohibition.

Tell me why I'm not surprized.

enichols
February 19, 2003, 12:15 AM
seems to have such a prohibition.
Tell me why I'm not surprized.
Yeah, afraid so. If you're under 18 in the PRK, unless you are accompanied by a parent/guardian, the people at the gun store won't let you handle the guns.

makdaddy03
February 19, 2003, 12:49 AM
In Alabama a minor can handle long guns, but not handguns. Atleast thats what me and my 20yr old nephew were told. He could handle any long gun but no pistols.:(

Azrael256
February 19, 2003, 01:04 AM
I believe it's a felony back home in Texas to enter a gun store without fondl... er... handling a gun :) . I had a guy in a gun store hand me a Savage Model 90 (I think) when I was about 8 just to "see how it fit."

ajacobs
February 19, 2003, 08:18 AM
Does that mean you can't even take your son (if he does not have a permit) to the range to target shoot?

That is correct although not enforced.

Shweboner
February 19, 2003, 01:24 PM
Here'n Orygun I dont think there is any laws against it. However, most shops wont let you. If you look like a yungin they ask for ID before they let you touch anything.

~brain

AK103K
February 19, 2003, 03:56 PM
I find that even those in law enforcement, who are supposed to know the laws of their jurisdiction, dont really always know. There seems to more mis-information bandied about than fact, even with them. I think when they, or anyone for that matter, dont know, its automaticly assumed to be in the negitive. If you really want to know, go to the top and call or email your state attorney generals office. This cuts out a lot of crap. If they cant give you the answer, nobody can short of the state supreme court. Not to long ago, something along these lines came up here. I was trying to find out about my son having his .45 in his possession while shooting with his friends since he was under 21(he was 18). My local dealer went over the laws in his books with me and "the law" said it was ok(as was later confirmed by the AG's office), in PA its 21 to purchase, 18 "to possess". A little while later I was in a different gun shop and the subject came up and when I chimed in with what I had learned, I was told I was dead wrong, you had to be 21, period.(ofcourse they didnt have the book there, or wouldnt admit it) There was even a district game protector there who also said I was wrong. Now, I 'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but when I've got the answer straight from the AG's mouth, I figgure I'm pretty close to right. They wouldnt hear of it. You would figure the game warden would know better, since in PA you can get what they call a "provisional pistol permit" what allows you to carry a handgun while hunting. This you can get at 18! But I was wrong. :rolleyes:
You know, this all goes with a lot of other "rules" we are told we have to abide by and if you read the law, its isnt necessarily right. Read the "laws" on the books about carrying in the Post Office, or in a school, and you will see the term, "or any lawful purpose". Well that means to me I CAN carry my pistol as I'm not doing anything "unlawful" and I can "lawfully" carry my pistol anywhere else. It doesnt say flat out you cant. We all go off about this law or that being wrong, but do you actually challenge the people telling you you cant, or have you even read the law(they are even more accessible now ithe the web) that they are telling you is law or the rules? If they are saying you are wrong, they need to know what the law is and what the section, page and paragraph is to prove it. Its not their word against yours, they have to prove you did something wrong. Right? Question authority every chance you get. Dont take their word for anything, tell them to show you it in writing, or your right until they can prove to you your not. Besides, its fun to watch the veins come out of their necks when you "DARE" question them and just dont go away with head bowed and your hat in your hand when they tell you no.

m1911joe
February 23, 2003, 02:15 AM
HKMP5SD

I hate to burst your bubble but it is federal law for a miner to be given a hand gun by any one other then a parent or guardian. Have you heard of the Youth Handgun Safety Act? You should have. Any time you buy a gun from an FFL dealer you are to be given one. But that does not happen all that often.

FEDERAL LAW

The Gun Control Act of 1968, U.S.C. Chapter 44, provides in pertinent part as follows:

18 U.S.C.922(x)

(x) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell,
deliver, or stherwise transfer to a person who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to
believe is a juvenile--

(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only
in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person
who is a juvenile to knowingly possess--
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is sutable for use only
in a handgun.



Know there is a lot more to this law. Yes there are times that it is lawful for them to have a gun. If you would like to know when please go to your local gun store and get a copy of this flier:


Youth Handgun Safety Act Notice

ATF I 5300.2 (7-98)

Hkmp5sd
February 23, 2003, 09:24 AM
m1911joe,

There is a big difference between "(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer" a firearm to a minor and allowing a minor to hold a firearm inside a licensed gun store under the observation of an adult.

In order for a federally licensed firearm dealer to sell, deliver or transfer a firearm to any individual, he must fill out the Form 4473, perform an instant background check and meet local waiting periods (and any other local laws). An individual while on his licensed premises may examine and in some instances even shoot a firearm without going through those steps. One may conclude the dealer HAS NOT sold, delivered or transfered the firearm to that customer.

Blackhawk
February 23, 2003, 11:33 AM
Dumb laws if a minor can't touch a gun in a store. Who's going to get arrested if a minor manages to get a paw print on a cabled display gun?

The store owner for not child proofing his store?

A clerk for not manhandling a curious kid and risking ancillary charges?

A parent for having a kid?

:rolleyes:

m1911joe
February 23, 2003, 05:47 PM
I have to agree that it is a stupid law. But it doesn't just apply FFL dealers it applies to all. So you still can't "or otherwise transfer" a handgun to a miner. You are also confusing "sell"with "otherwise transfer". At the store this law is gotten around very easly by giving the gun to the "parent or guardian" first. They have the legal right to "otherwise transfer" the gun to the miner. We also give handgun lessons at the range. We have had kids take the class and the parent has had to be there for the class otherwise we as instrutors could not have put a gun in the kids hands.

Like I said in my first post it is federal law, which it is. Do I like it? NO. But it is a law that we have to live with. You also assume alot what the ATF can conclude is or is not a transfer. Very dangerous to assume something like that. They have a funny way of doing just the oppsite of what you would think.

Please get the flier from the gun store and read it. Then tell me what you think.

Hkmp5sd
February 23, 2003, 06:50 PM
If the law is interpreted as meaning a minor cannot be handed a firearm in a gun store from the clerk, this is the first time I've ever heard about it.

I can state that when I was a minor and had saved enough money, I hit every gun store in the county, many by riding my bicycle, and checked out the guns until I found one I wanted. My parents would then go to the store and handle the transfer.

And in the event the federal law does mean this, per it's exemptions, state law overrides it....

18 U.S.C.922(x)(3)(A)(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

And in Florida, that law says....

790.17 Furnishing weapons to minors under 18 years of age or persons of unsound mind and furnishing firearms to minors under 18 years of age prohibited.--

(1) A person who sells, hires, barters, lends, transfers, or gives any minor under 18 years of age any dirk, electric weapon or device, or other weapon, other than an ordinary pocketknife, without permission of the minor's parent or guardian, or sells, hires, barters, lends, transfers, or gives to any person of unsound mind an electric weapon or device or any dangerous weapon, other than an ordinary pocketknife, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Which means the parent doesn't even have to be in the store. The parent could give permission over the phone or with a note.

m1911joe
February 24, 2003, 05:04 AM
Which means the parent doesn't even have to be in the store. The parent could give permission over the phone or with a note.


Were does it say that? Its not in your post. :confused:


If you were a young'un before 1968 you were aloud to do that.

AK103K
February 24, 2003, 05:42 AM
If you were a young'un before 1968 you were aloud to do that.

Your right, that was a whole different time and place. You could walk through town with a gun or have one at school with you and no one would bat an eye. Sorry thing is, in another generation, they will be saying how their Grandfather used to actually shoot guns, in hushed tones. They are doing it in the "slow, sure, way", even the history books are changing. By the time time your grandkids get to here of "how the west was won", they will have done it with a strong word and a mean face. And of all horrors, they actually learned to use foul language in WWII. Sadam will have been bored to death by Bush and the UN on TV, over and over, and over..... :)

Hkmp5sd
February 24, 2003, 05:56 PM
without permission of the minor's parent or guardian

It says the minor only needs permission. Doesn't say HOW that permission is to be transmitted to the dealer. Provided the dealer has a telephone, email or mailbox, the parent can give permission without being present.

(And I didn't get into guns until mid-late 70s.)

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