Help me choose a gun, part II


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trooper
August 15, 2004, 04:56 PM
Hi guys,

I finally received my shooting federation's bureaucratic "blessing" (read: letter of confirmation that I have a legitimate need for a gun for sporting purposes) and will put in my application for a firearms permit tomorrow morning.

And of course I still haven't been able to decide on a handgun... :)

It will be a 9mm tupperware piece for a first gun (hopefully with some 1911 and revolvers to follow sometime :)). Right now I have narrowed down my choice to either a Glock 17 or 19 (with an occasional thought being given to the H&K USP every now and then).

A friend of mine told me that the Glock 19 was mechanically more accurate and had less muzzle rise than the 17. Do you agree with that? Does that actually translate into better practical accuracy?

I shot the G17 before and I was rather pleased with the low bore axis and the grip angle. I didn't mind the Glock trigger at all.

The one thing that still makes me think about a USP is that I'm not quite sure what kind of accuracy I can expect from a Glock. I occasionally shoot service pistols bullseye competitions at 25m and therefore would prefer some better accuracy than a simple "minute-of-torso"...

On the other hand I'm definitely planning to get into dynamic shooting disciplines in the near future, and I'm wondering if a Glock might not be a bit more useful for that purpose...

I might save a few € on a Glock but that's not really an issue to me.

Let me know what you think!!



Thanks in advance,

Trooper

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Hand_Rifle_Guy
August 16, 2004, 01:34 PM
Don't H&K's cost a chunk more than Glocks? They do 'round these parts, last time I looked, which is admittedly some time ago. I could be wrong, and heck, I live in the Socialista-controlled zone that is Korny Kaliforny. We make up our own rules for gun pricing that have little to do with the rest of the world. Ah, you mention that being a non-issue. OK, next!

As for accuracy comparisons, I'll just opinion-ate on what I know.

Firstus, I tried a rental USP a while ago just to try one out, as I'd heard lots of good stories about 'em. Note, however, that this was a .40 rather than a 9mm. It had a standard DA/SA w/decocker trigger set-up, but I only managed to shoot it in SA mode, mostly by virtue of not paying attention. (Load/insert mag, rack slide to chamber round, commence shooting. Forgot about the decocker. :o ) The sights were nicely-visible 3-dots-painted-white style, and required no adjusting. The trigger was adequate, but not inspiring. I didn't shoot the gun very well at the indoor range at some 20-ish yards, a result I place a lot of blame for on the fact that I found the USP's grip rather thick and blocky, and I didn't get a very good trigger index, or so it seemed. This is all rather subjective, and someone with different hands might like it better. I just found it rather awkward-feeling. It kind of felt like trrying to shoot a semi-auto brick. I won't go into recoil characteristics as the gun I shot wasn't a 9mm.

Now, for Glocks I can say I own one, but once again in a different caliber. I bought new a G-32 in .357 Sig. It came with a nice trigger from the factory, but I also installed an Alchemy Arms 3.5 lb. disconnector just for the heck of it. It's a 3rd-generation gun with finger-grooves, which I rather enjoy. The grip is still pretty fat, but the Glock seems to have better ergonoics for me. I REALLY LIKE the new disconnector. The trigger on my gun reminds me of a very soft DA revolver as it pulls through very easily and consistently. That makes it seem easy to shoot this gun accurately, a sentiment expressed by most people who've tried it, including a few non-shooters who tried it as one of their first shooting experiences. It really seems to aim and balance well, and it shoots right were the sights look. (Same sights as the USP, BTW.) I like to shoot this gun at 2-litre bottles of water at 100 yards, and it'll grant 50% hits easily when I do my part correctly. That counts as 'minute of headshot' to me, and it'll do it consistently. Realistically, this is one of my favorite shooters, although a lot of that opinion is based on the cartridge characteristics. Mostly it just shoots like gangbusters, or it fits me particularly well. Regardless, for me this gun is a lot more accurate than the USP was. Once again I'll leave out recoil impressions as the .357 Sig is a very different creature than 9mm Para. (They both shoot pretty flat, though.)

Those stories are what I've experienced. That said, I'd be surprised if the mechanical accuracy of either one of those guns surpassed the other in any significant way, as they're both well-made, and they both have polygon rifling. The G-32 is the same size as the 17, I think. ( The "medium" size gun, same as a G-23 w/4" barrel, I think. ) The USP I shot was a full-size gun.

I wouldn't hesitate to endorse the USP if that's what you decide to go with. I attribute any accuracy issues I had with it to having the wrong sort of hands that'd fit on the grip better. (I like the ergonomics of S&W autos, too. Lots fo folks hate S&W autos because they have terrible ergonomics for them.) I still think they're really well-made, functional pieces of guncraft that'd be well-worth buying. IF it suits you. They sure don't suit ME, and therefore I'm glad I don't own one, but they're still mighty fine guns.

On the other hand, if you're OK with the Glock trigger, (That rather a lot of folks cannot abide, but that I like fine.) then I would express loud cheers at the prospect of you buying one, as I think they work fantastically, and they're even sweeter with the aftermarket lighter-trigger mods. The disconnector in my G-32 has made it shoot like a target gun instead of the ordinary super-plinker I bought it to be. I can fully reccomend this combo, as mine has proved to be a lot of fun not only to me, but to just about everyone who's ever shot it.

Not much help, I'm afraid. All I've got is subjectivity, rather than relevant empirical information, and wrong-caliber impressions at that. 'Sall I got, but it beats nothing. Maybe you could shoot them side by side at a rental place to see which one you might prefer? With comparable mechanical accuracy, the better shooter is likely to be which-ever gun fits/feels better, and they're pretty different animals...

Smurfslayer
August 16, 2004, 02:48 PM
If the product 'motto' or slogan is "Glock Perfection", why is there such a big aftermarket parts industry for them? :neener:

Ok. Now that I got the Glock bashing out of my system...

Unlike you, I do have a problem with the glock's trigger and that thing on the side of the slide that most mfgr's call a slide release lever. If you don't have a problem with these things, then, by all means you should consider an honest comparison...

One advantage to the USP; if you don't like the configuration, you can send it to the factory and get it reconfigured - decocker only, DAO, SAO, or LEM (std. or light trigger).

Being a diagnosed glock-o-phobe, you shouldn't read my comments as being unbiased... I've shot them a bunch of times, and the one I did have good results from was a 19...with the standard trigger. As good as my USP 9's...

I let a friend, who is notoriously accurate with any and every handgun he picks up, shoot my USP9 LEM... in about 7 or 8 seconds, he managed 5 shots at 7 yards into a hole that couldn't have been bigger than a .40 hole :what: so obviously the gun is far more accurate than it's current shooter ...

If it fits, feels good in your hands, shoots well for you, and you like it, then it's right for you and that is really what matters...

good luck !

Marshall
August 16, 2004, 04:15 PM
I hate it when people do what I am getting ready to do but, have you shot an XD? I looked at both Glocks and HK's too. The HK's were too high and didn't give me the feel I wanted so, I almost bought the Glock. However, I went to one more place that carried the XD's for Springfield and I was home in my mothers womb. They could have been another hundred and a half, I still would have bought. (hope Springfield doesn't read that).

Just a thought.....

Hope you're happy with whatever you buy! :)

trooper
August 16, 2004, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I can relate to your experience, HRG. When I shot the Glock it just felt right in my hand (as you can clearly see, I'm already kinda partial to it :))

I'm still pondering over the USP as well though, mainly because of its versatility and its supposedly higher mechanical accuracy. I also liked its comfortably large trigger guard. Oh, and I like BIG guns... :)

BTW price difference is about 100,- € around here, so I'm not really concerned about that.

Marshall, I can't find a Springfield XD to try out around here, and I wouldn't want to buy a gun without having fondled and shot it first...

Again, can anyone tell me something about the relative accuracy of the Glock 17 vs. 19?


Thanks for your advice,

Trooper

Zundfolge
August 16, 2004, 06:55 PM
trooper, the Springfield XD is actualy made in Croatia ... there its called the HS2000. Springfield just imports the pistols into the US and then slaps their name on them.

So you might be able to find an HS2000 there in Germany.

Rich357
August 16, 2004, 08:30 PM
I have both the G17, G19 . I've not put them in a machine rest to test their accuracy. I shoot both of them pretty well. I find the grip on the G17 a little more comfortable. The longer sight radius of the G17 is also nice.

You should really try both the G17 and G19 to see which fits your hand best. If this pistol is for combat shooting either one is accurate enough. If you are interested in competition shooting the G34 has an even longer sight radius. Its longer (5.32") barrel also gives the 9mm a little more velocity and energy.

While I'm a big Glock fan I also enjoy shooting my Walther P99 9mm very much. Try a Walther P99 and make sure the smallest of the three grip pieces is installed. It makes a big difference in the way the P99 feels. Most of the guys I know who shoot P99s prefer the smallest grip insert.

Good luck,
Rich

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