Toddler Shot By Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale


August 16, 2004, 10:36 PM
Toddler Shot By Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale
Shooting Investigation Continues

UPDATED: 12:54 PM EDT August 16, 2004

RICHMOND, Mo. -- A toddler was shot last week at a family yard sale in Missouri.

Natishia Weber said she took her children to a relative's yard sale Thursday, not giving a second thought that her 21-month-old daughter, Danielle, was safe playing with friends in a tent.

An Iowa farmer stopped by a short time later and picked up a .22-caliber rifle that was for sale. Thinking it was unloaded, he pulled the trigger. A bullet richocheted off a barrel and pierced Danielle's left arm, elbow to wrist.

"It's a freak accident, but it never should have been a freak accident," grandfather Mike Weber said.

Danielle was rushed to a Kansas City, Mo., hospital for treatment. Three days later she was able to go home.

"(The doctor) said, 'I don't know how she lived through all of this. She's a miracle baby because it didn't hit any bone, nerves or anything,'" Natishia Weber recalled.

The family is thankful the injury wasn't worse, but they are mindful of what happened.

"If there was a bullet in the chamber, they should have known there was a bullet in the chamber before the gun went out there," Mike Weber said.

Ray County Sheriff's Office is investigating the shooting as an accident. No charges are expected.

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August 16, 2004, 10:41 PM
Am I the only person in the world that has never seen a gun at a yard sale?

August 16, 2004, 10:42 PM
Wow, this guy managed to break all four rules at once! Way to go!


Glad the kid's going to be ok. Not her fault she was surrounded by morons.

August 16, 2004, 10:44 PM
Both the farmer who fired it and the jerk who put a loaded gun out at the yard sale ought to be seriously punished.

however, its not the first time I've heard of loaded guns being sold. A good friends father has a dam fine impressive collection of old (revolutionary and War of 1812 era) rifles. He's probably got close to 50 or 60 of them by know and has spent a good part of the last 40 years scouring the rural countrysides throughout the midatlantic and new england for these and other weapons.

He has, on more than once occaision, found people willing to sell grandpa's (or great great grandpas as the case may be) junky old rifle for next to nothing and not realize that the thing was kept loaded and had been hanging in the garage or the barn loaded for 50, 60 70, 100 + years.

He's REAL careful when he picks them up, and over the years has bought tons of junk, but the 50 or 60 treasures he has found have more then compensated for the efforts undertaken.

El Tejon
August 16, 2004, 10:52 PM
"I've been around guns all my life. I don't need no fancypants ejamakashun!"

ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded, even those found at yard sales.

August 16, 2004, 10:55 PM
If my daughter were in that situation, there would be an ex-farmer, likely crippled. As Pinhead put it in Hellraiser, "his suffering would be legendary...". :fire:


August 16, 2004, 11:05 PM
Natishia Weber said she took her children to a relative's yard sale Thursday

I guess had it been your child, there also would be an ex-relative, likely crippled... :rolleyes:

Don't let emotions get the better of you; cool-headed logic will never steer you wrong.

joe sixpack
August 16, 2004, 11:39 PM

It's a wonder we aren't all dead through our stupidity.
I seriously question how I ever made it through HS.

cheers, ab

August 16, 2004, 11:48 PM
to close the yardsale loophole........... for the chilren.

August 16, 2004, 11:58 PM
Aggravated assault for the farmer, hopefully.
Reckless endangerment for both the farmer and the owner, hopefully.

Idiots, both of them.

August 17, 2004, 12:07 AM
When I was about 15 I went to a yard sale in Ohio and the people had some guns for sale. Picked up a revolver and started checking it out. At that time, I hadn't formulated my 4th rule of safe gun handling:

EVERY TIME you pick up a gun, open the action and make sure it's empty.

But I did know:

Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

I didn't pull the trigger, but I was pointing it at a tree. Then I pulled it back to look at it, and noticed the cartridges in the cylinder.

I told the woman having the yard sale, "Hey this is loaded". She almost sh*t a brick. Got her husband to unload it.

captain obvious
August 17, 2004, 12:30 AM
No, techbrute, you're not. I keep hearing about increadible deals at yard sales, about some old lady who sells late 19th century lever rifles for $10 a piece - nowhere to be found.

August 17, 2004, 01:08 AM
Yeah, that story must be fake. The legend of the gun at the garage sale has never materialized for me....

August 17, 2004, 02:03 AM
well, to be fair, he probably thought the barrel *was* a safe direction to point the thing.

unless he aimed at an iron binding...

August 17, 2004, 02:59 AM
A) I, too have never heard of a yardsale with guns.

B) I thought all guns were always loaded...

August 17, 2004, 03:32 AM
Moron. I'm sorry but whoever's responsible deserves to get put in jail or sued on this one.

August 17, 2004, 03:51 AM
Entirely avoidable in more ways than one in this situation yes, but still an accident that isn't that freakish IMO... I for one don't see the "severely punished" and jailtime being at all inline for this or most other accidental shootings, but that's just me...

August 17, 2004, 05:08 AM
thats a horrible accident.

August 17, 2004, 06:32 AM
Almost bought a Glock at a tag sale one time. The woman was running a small, individual sale in rural Connecticut, and the gun was in the box on a table. I was new to CC and wasn't sure of the legalities, but after the major tap dance I had to go through to get my license I remember thinking that there might be some legal considerations to selling a handgun to someone off the street.

I'd like to think that at the least someone would know not to point a firearm at anything that they don't want to put a hole in. :what:

I realize that he shot a barrel, but pulling the trigger without checking the chamber!!!! That's stupid, not an accident. Lucky girl.

August 17, 2004, 07:00 AM
Thinking it was unloaded, he pulled the trigger. The most dangerous and foolhardy of assumptions for anyone to make. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

cracked butt
August 17, 2004, 08:07 AM
The only positive thing about this story was that it was a .22 and the bullet didn't hit anything vital. It could have been much worse- an old mauser 98 that the sellers dad or grandpa brought back or even a shotgun.

I believe the only reason the man wasn't clubbed to death with the rifle is that there was a toddler who was shot that needed to be attended to.

This whole thing makes me really sick to my stomach.:barf:

Ukraine Train
August 17, 2004, 08:08 AM
I saw a Lorcin .380 for sale at a garage sale once. The people were telling me how great it is...

August 17, 2004, 08:18 AM, I have never seen a gun at a yard sale either. Kinda sucks too, as I expect one and still keep looking.

August 17, 2004, 08:33 AM
Irresponsible behavior on the part of the farmer and criminally neglegent behavior on the part of the "relative".

Yes, I have seen guns for sale at yard sales and flea markets and yes some have been screaming deals, but that's always rare.

August 17, 2004, 08:58 AM
Firearms at yard / garage sales are not uncommon here. I've personally sold one that way and seen a few dozen for sale in my 30 years.

August 17, 2004, 09:24 AM
I bought an 16 shot bolt action .22 made by savage at a garage sale.

First thing I did was check the chamber.

Paid 10 bucks, practiced my shade tree gunsmithing and sold it for $50

Garage sale guns appear from time to time but they are mostly junk.

I have heard of sickos loading weapons at gunshops, gun shows etc ..
for a prank or worse. The guy who pulled the trigger is unfortunately
exhibiting normal gun handling behavior from what I've seen. :(

August 17, 2004, 09:30 AM
In case any of you think this is a new phenomenon, here's a quote from Mark Twain in 1882:

Don't meddle with old unloaded firearms. They are the most deadly and unerring things that have ever been created by man. You don't have to take any pains at all with them; you don't have to have a rest, you don't have to have any sights on the gun, you don't have to take aim, even. No, you just pick out a relative and bang away, and you are sure to get him. A youth who can't hit a cathedral at thirty yards with a Gatling gun in three-quarters of an hour, can take up an old empty musket and bag his mother every time at a hundred.

August 17, 2004, 10:43 AM
I picked up a Mossberg 500A for $75 and a Marlin (Actually CtoC) Model 60 semiauto .22 for $32 at a recent garage sale. Saw a couple older fellows selling some shotguns and mil caliber rifles (7.62 and others) at a garage sale, but they were a little high priced for their condition.

The mossy needed a new bolt carrier pin that was about $20 after shipping ($7 before shipping). Works great as does the .22. Now I just need to find a deer rifle at a yard sale for pennies.:)

August 17, 2004, 10:47 AM
My wife and I go to yard sales every weekend. This last Sat. I came across one where there were 6 Shot guns and about the same number of rifles.
This is very rare.
I didn't pick any up or buy any of them, I'm just not into long guns.


August 17, 2004, 11:06 AM
I've at least heard of a couple of guns being sold at garage sales. Most people selling guns at a yard or garage sale Don't really know what they are selling around here. My range budy did happen to find a CR .22 lr of some sort at a garage sale for $5. this last sunday at the range his rifle was a big topic. You canh get good deals at garage sales but you must be extremely careful

August 17, 2004, 11:54 AM
It surprised me that the story mentions, “he pulled the trigger”.
Most stories would have said “and the gun just fired”.

So the story wouldn’t have been
Dumb guy does dumb thing.

It would have been bad gun does bad thing!

August 17, 2004, 12:32 PM
At 5:00 AM the newspaper delivery guy flags me down while I was on patrol. He gives me a sectioin of the yet to be delivered paper, listing garage sales. One sale lists a GLOCK pistol for $150.00. Sale starts at 9:00 AM and I am parked in front of the house at 7:15AM. House holder comes out and asks if I am the guy that called and offered $175.00. I said yes... And had a NIB with two high caps GLOCK 19.

August 17, 2004, 12:42 PM
The story should read

Toddler Shot WITH Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale.

Or perhaps

Toddler Shot By Careless Idiot With Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale."

August 17, 2004, 12:55 PM
I've missed them at more than a few!:(
Here in Vermont, we see them at antique/flea markets all the time...

Rule #1
Don't EVER touch, until you ask: "May I handle that weapon? Is it loaded?"
Rule #2
Imediately open the action and check the chamber/magazine.
Rule #3
Follow the four golden rules of gun safety.
Rule #4
Make sure that the weapon returns safely to the spot from which it came or that it leans against your shoulder with the barrel pointed straight up until it gets home.
I've been present more than once during a stressful period of:
"HEY! watch where you point that thing, you idiot!"
Or seen people who will rest the muzzle of a weapon on their toes while looking at something else...
It's always the same dumb rhetoric:
"It's not loaded."
"IT'S ALWAYS LOADED, TREAT IT THAT WAY!" is what I always yell at them.
I usually get dirty looks from people for being so "anal"
"It is better to be safe than to be sorry." I always say...

Here's a little nugget for those of you who don't think that a standard safety routine is that important...
I ALWAYS rack the action a few times before I "lay down" a weapon when I go shooting at the range...
The other day I was firing some loose ammo that I had rolling around in the bottom of my range bag through the AK-47...

Apparently one was a dud...

I figured I had emptied the mag and on the "I thought" last trigger pull, heard a click and assumed I was done...
Keeping the weapon in the follow-through position I racked the action back and out pops a round that had a pronounced dent in the primer.
I aimed at the target and pulled the trigger and continued to fire 2 more rounds from the remainder of the 75 round drum...

The first thing I do is to remove my finger from the trigger.
Then I open the action and leave it that way.
Next I remove the magazine/apply the safety... if it has one...
Then and only then do I disengage the firing line...

"Safety works for the benefit of us all"

-Sign at a construction site

August 17, 2004, 01:14 PM
I guess I now understand why our legal system is such a mess. A child gets hurt in a freak accident, and we're ready to hang the two people who made mistakes, even though it required a richoet for the child to be harmed.

We all know and follow the four rules, but we've all met people who don't handle guns with the proper level of paranoia and redundant safety percautions.

It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded. He should have checked the chamber, but he didn't. He aimed the gun in what he thought was a safe direction and tried out the trigger.

Not the ideal gun handling practice, but not really unreasonable either. He expected that the gun was empty, but didn't point it at anyone as a safety percaution. It was the fluke richochet thatallowed the child to be harmed.

He should have checked the chamber, but I don't see how he was criminally negligent, and agravated assault would require intent, which there obviously was none.

The gun owner was more negligent to set out a loaded gun. Criminally negligent? Apparently the local police don't think so.

A bullet richocheted off a barrel and pierced Danielle's left arm, elbow to wrist.

"(The doctor) said, 'I don't know how she lived through all of this. She's a miracle baby because it didn't hit any bone, nerves or anything,'" Natishia Weber recalled.

A bullet going from an elbow to the wrist can't go very deep without hitting bone, nerves, or anything important. It was likely a very painful wound that the child should never have had to suffer through, but since she was taken immediately to the hospital, I don't see how the wound was really life threatening.

To much hype in the article. Too much emotional over-reaction in the thread.

August 17, 2004, 02:44 PM
It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded

BS. It is completely unreasonable to assume any gun you didn't check the chamber on is unloaded. The only acceptable place for this ignorant dirt farmer to point that gun was at his own head. He should have checked the chamber. There is no acceptable alternative. A few inches in the wrong direction and that baby would be dead. Every time I read this, I think of my own little girl. :(

The gun owner was more negligent to set out a loaded gun

Dunno about more negligent, but he was just as responsible IMO.


August 17, 2004, 03:01 PM
I don't hand a gun i KNOW is loaded to someone w/o poppin the bolt/slide/whatever assuring myself that it is indeed unloaded and then showing THEM that its not loaded.

And that is w/ a gun i KNOW is unloaded.

I don't understand how anyone puts a gun out in a sale and confirms to themselves that its not loaded at the very least. If only to be sure they don't get shot by some idiot assuming a gun isn't loaded.

I check the chamber on every gun I ask to see at a gun store... even tho i know they don't tend to keep loaded firearms in every tom dick and harry's hands that ask to "see them"

This is what happens when people get too comfortable w/ themselves - the farmer i'm guessing was reasonably familiar w/ guns - and assumed no one would keep a loaded gun on a table that anyone (including a kid) could touch. Assumption is the mother of all ef ups... Shame it was the baby who won't learn from this lesson(too young to learn) that got hurt for it.


August 17, 2004, 07:08 PM
Have you ever notices that they dont seem to ever shoot themselves but some other poor devil?

August 17, 2004, 10:05 PM
Keep in mind that people do inherited firearms and know next to nothing about them. These are the ones who try to sell them at yard sales and gun shows. And it never occurs to them that thier relivtive kept loaded guns around.


August 17, 2004, 10:57 PM
This is a terrible thing to have happened, but when I read the thread title it sounded as though they put a shot toddler out for sale.

Predating even the incomparable Twain, Capt. Randolph Marcy wrote in some detail abt pioneers in wagon trains shooting themselves thru carelesss handling of guns as they put them in, and took them out of, their wagons in his guidebook for settlers "The Prairie Traveler". That was in 1859.

Red Dragon
August 18, 2004, 12:12 AM
The farmer is definately negligent, as is the man who picked the weapon up. When I was becoming familiar with firearms, I learned that there is no such thing as an accidential discharge. There are only negligent discharges. and, as was said already, for aggrivated assault charges, there would have to be an intent to cause harm. Assault itself requires malice to hold up in court. For instance. if a guy was holding a weapon in a gunstore and as he brought it up to his shoulder, he ended up buttstroking the poor SOB behind him, even if he broke the guys nose, there was no malicious intent involved so assault wouldn't hold up in court. It was an unfortunate series of events and with the way its looking, no charges will be pressed. We can only hope that both the farmer and the guy who picked up the weapon and fired it without checking have learned a MAJOR lesson so this type of thing never happens again.

August 18, 2004, 01:01 AM
I'm going to risk the fury of Art's Grammaw here.

Flatrock, you say:
It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded.

Well, you do know what you do when you assume, don't you? You make an a$$ out of u(you) and me.

There is absolutely no excuse for either the individual who put a loaded gun on that table or for the individual who pulled the trigger. They both should have checked to ensure that the weapon was unloaded.

What if you and your family were at that yard sale, your child was standing there talking to other kids her age, someone picked up a rifle off the table, pulled the trigger (assuming afterall, it was unloaded), and shot your daughter? Would you feel that he wasn't negligent? Bull if you say you would feel that they were free of blame.

You never, ever, assume a gun is unloaded. No matter how many firearms you've handled in your lifetime. I, for one, have been into many gunshops and handled many guns. So far, I've never found one to be loaded. Using your logic, it would be safe for me to assume that the probability of me finding a loaded gun on the rack of a gunshop is pretty much nil. There may be a greater likelyhood of having a snowball fight in the Grand Canyon than finding a loaded gun on display in a gunshop, but that won't prevent this responsible adult from checking the status of EVERY gun I pick up. That's the responsible way to do things.

It only takes a second or two to check the status. It would take me a lifetime to get over the griff and mental anguish if I negligently killed, injured, or maimed someone because I was too lazy to check to see if a gun were loaded or not. Of course, I would probably never get over it.


August 18, 2004, 10:50 AM
"It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded."

I disagree with this statement so strongly I can barely see straight enough to type my response.

This incident is *exactly* the reason it can never be said enough: ALWAYS ASSUME A FIREARM IS LOADED. Yes, I'm shouting.


August 18, 2004, 11:20 AM
Why is this guy pulling the trigger on a rimfire 22?

August 18, 2004, 12:05 PM
It also amazes me to find a loaded gun that everyone swears is unloaded. When I first met my in-laws, they knew I "collected guns". So, at first visit, I am handed a Marlin rimfire rifle (I think a Model 60). Reflexively, I work the action with the muzzle pointed down at the floor; at the same time, I hear, "It is unloaded". Sure enough, a live round is ejected from the action. Worse yet, I feel another round enter the chamber. So out comes the magazine follower -- and ten or so rounds of .22 LR. I work the action again, see the round eject and the empty chamber, and then say, "NOW it is unloaded!!". Here is the kicker, the in-law reply, "Well I was TOLD it was unloaded." Yeah, right.

Of course, I was once at a gun show, where loaded weapons are prohibited, where a child was killed with a shot fired from an unloaded revolver.

August 18, 2004, 01:19 PM
Let me clarify a bit on my earlier comments.

It would be unreasonable for me to pick up any gun and assume it's unloaded, even if I'm the one who set it down 10 minutes ago. I know better, and I do hold myself to a higher standard.

I hold anyone who's been properly trained to use firearms to a higher standard.

However, there are a lot of people out there who haven't had the benefit of being told the 4 rules over and over again. They try and be safe by using a little common sense, and what they know.

Without having taught oneself to ALWAYS assume a gun you're picking up is loaded, I can see how a reasonable person would assume that a gun for sale at a yard sale was unloaded, and be careless and fire the gun without checking the chamber first. His safety percaution was to point the gun in what he thought was a safe direction.

Do his actions amount to carelesness. Yes, because the danger involved with handling firearms requires redundant safety procedures.

Do his actions amount to criminal negligence. I don't know enough about the situation to be sure, but I'm leaning toward no.

I would never teach someone that if was ok to pull a trigger on a gun that they didn't check the chamber on. I would never do so myself. However, if I was on a jury that was determining if a person was criminally negligent, I would have to ask myself if he could have reasonably expected his action would cause harm.

The dishcharge of the rifle was negligent, but wounding the child was simply a freak accident.

August 18, 2004, 01:43 PM
That's after you file criminal complaint. Jail time is appropriate for both of them. If you operate a car in a careless manner and damage or kill someone, you could find yourself doing time. There is no reason for it not to apply to firearms.

But, alas, Sara's Million Toadies will probably try to get the childs mother to allow them to use her as their poster child (they may not even as - they might do it without asking -- see the latest issue of Coneiled Carry). And of course, they'll go after the manufacturer because that's where the money is and it will have an effect on shooting in general.

August 18, 2004, 01:59 PM
"...and tried out the trigger."

I'm trying to figger out how he knew it was cocked so he could try out the trigger. Maybe he saw a cocking indicator of some sort - no, he's obviously not that smart. When I try rifle triggers I always have to cock the gun first. My conclusion? He wasn't really trying out the trigger...he was just fooling around with the gun.


August 18, 2004, 03:15 PM
Jail time is appropriate for both of them. If you operate a car in a careless manner and damage or kill someone, you could find yourself doing time. There is no reason for it not to apply to firearms.

Ok, I'm playing devil's advocate a bit. Let's try this analogy.

You go to buy a used car from a private seller. The seller suggests you take a test drive. You don't know it, but he has a leak in a break line. You hop in, push in the clutch, start the car, take off the emergency brake and start to pull to the end of the driveway. As you approach the end of the driveway you start to apply the brakes, and you find no resistence and the pedal goes to the floor.

You drift out onto the main road into traffic and cause an accident in which others are injured. Are your actions criminally negligent? Should you be held accountable for not making sure the brakes worked before taking your test drive? A car is deadly if used as a weapon, and you are required to use one safely.

The situations aren't quite the same, but are very similar in that in both cases a quick, simple check could have prevented the accident (or negligent act).

It's great that we all agree that you should always treat a gun as loaded, and should teach others this important safety rule as well.

However, the act of having a loaded gun for sale at a yard sale is in itself very unreasonable, and totally unexpected. The farmer made an assumption that the seller didn't have a loaded gun for sale, but took the percaution of aiming the gun in a safe direction, probably as he'd been taught as a kid.

The reason that we have redundant safety rules is that people make mistakes. In this case it took a mistake by the gun owner, another by the farmer, and a fluke richochet for the child to be harmed.

The gun owner may very well have inherited the gun and not known it was loaded, and not really know how it worked.

If there isn't malice, or outright reckless behavior, I don't see justification for criminal charges, or a large civil settlement.

Between the farmer and the gun owner they should make sure the child's medical bills get paid.

I think that lawyers have somehow brainwashed people into believing that every time an accident happens, someone must be held accountable and taken for all their worth.

Whatever happend to guaging people's actions by their intentions, and while making sure people make proper ammends (paying the medical bills) not trying to destroy people finacially or put them in jail for long periods of time for what are honest accidents.

Are we going to get to the point where someone who isn't paying attention and runs a red light gets charged with a felony, and sued for their life's savings if a child gets a long gash in their arm that does not permanant damage as a result?

August 18, 2004, 03:26 PM
Very reasonable arguments FlatRock... and i agree w/ you.

As i said before - I check the chamber even in a gun store where i'm SURE they aren't in the habit of handing over loaded weapons for people to futz with.... doesn't mean it couldn't happen one time that there WAS a round in the chamber... and thus my check.

But thats ME. There are people who maybe weren't told by dad to do that at a very young age. Or people that just aren't thinking of what a bullet can DO if for some reason there is one in the chamber. (ever heard this one: well i took the magazine out!!! sheesh!!) Not all people think the same as you or me or whoever, and then there are those who put far too much faith in thier fellow man.

In this case i'm thinking that is the farmers problem - he put far too much faith in thinking that no idiot would put a loaded rifle on a table at a garage sale, and at the same time - making the what could have been fatal mistake of not checking himself.


August 18, 2004, 04:06 PM
"However, there are a lot of people out there who haven't had the benefit of being told the 4 rules over and over again. They try and be safe by using a little common sense, and what they know."

I see what you're getting at, Flatrock, but I'm still not willing to let the guy off the hook unless he was so ignorant that he didn't even know that he was handling a firearm. Given that possibility, there are only two others that involve people of normal levels of awareness:

1) Experienced person -- "This thing could be loaded, so I'm going to check."

2) Inexperienced person -- "I have no idea if this thing is loaded, so I'm not going to handle it; I'll get the owner to show it to me."

The legislators here in **********, in their neverending quest for roadblocks to erect in the path of lawful handgun buyers, have instituted a requirement for a "handgun safety certificate". To get one you have to pass a test. I have not taken this test myself, but I understand it's pretty basic. In fact, I have heard one gun-hater criticize the test because "it's just common sense," as if there was some sort of specialized safety knowledge required to handle a firearm without hurting someone.


August 19, 2004, 12:26 AM
I personally have cleaned more than a hundred different weapons and never once shot anybody...
Am I doing something wrong or right?:confused:
I have this nagging habit of checking the chamber and removing the ammunition/magazine/cylinder BEFORE cleaning...

I've owned a Makarov and a PPK/S. Both had loaded chamber indicators.
Both had lock-down safeties. Both were treated like any other firearm...


As my Daddy used to say, (and still does, he's 75 this past June!)

"Guns are not toys, they're tools, and you don't play with tools, you work with them."


If you value your right to worship your deity, assemble peaceably, and speak freely, then have the guts to take up arms and defend your right to do so. To do any less is to dishonor your faith, your friends, and your soul.
To beg someone else to do it for you, or to disrespect me for thus, is proof that you are worthy of no rights...

August 19, 2004, 09:50 AM
I'm always amazed by the # of people killed while cleaning a firearm

Same here. IMO, you can't clean a firearm if it's loaded. How are you going to clean the barrel and chamber (or cylinder in a revolver)?

I think many are intentionally misreported suicides though. A cleaning accident will get your life insurance payout, suicides won't.


August 20, 2004, 12:10 AM
The Almighty dollar rules over common sense everytime!!!


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