The 30-30 assault weapon (image)


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Oleg Volk
August 17, 2004, 05:08 AM
http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/albums/arms/scout.sized.jpg
hi-res (http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/arms/scout)
And the obligatory "which THR member is this?"

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VaughnT
August 17, 2004, 07:23 AM
Might be better with a wood-stocked, more traditional appearing rifle.

Still, great poster. You do good work!

dukeofurl
August 17, 2004, 07:29 AM
I'd rather the caliber be 30.06 because more hunters seem to prefer it, but thats just me.

Another fine work!

Kaylee
August 17, 2004, 09:52 AM
I'd rather the caliber be 30.06 because more hunters seem to prefer it, but thats just me.

Except for the Ted Kennedy quote, which is correct. Oleg..I'd add the date and any other bibliographical info so folks can check your facts. (I take it this is from his blathering during the "lets add poison pills to the liability bill" this year?


and I'll second the "beautiful work" comment -- this is one of your great ones! :)

-K

shermacman
August 17, 2004, 10:08 AM
Kaylee:
Check this out...
http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/crosshairs/maine.htm
Kennedy's (D-Chivas) quote is there in context along with the Congressional Record insert.
My other Senator, Jean Fraud Kerry, agreed that .30-30 ammo should be banned.

Fastlane
August 17, 2004, 10:11 AM
Great poster, but I agree with VaughnT about the rifle. An model 94 would make a better statement.

Carlos Cabeza
August 17, 2004, 11:16 AM
Marlin lever gun. I was wondering when Oleg would make a poster concerning this infamous quote by Sen. T Kennedy. Good job !

hso
August 17, 2004, 11:24 AM
Great pictuer, but I agree with most of the other folks in that a traditonal lever action 30-30 would be best. Many deer are taken with these rifles and if we want the "I'm a hunter the AWB doesn't apply to me" folks to see the point we need to show it to them in a way they can't walk away from.

rick_reno
August 17, 2004, 11:29 AM
All Toad Kennedy cares about is "armored glass, armored limousines". Any gun with a scope is a "sniper assault weapon". When they outlaw our scopes, they'll need to be very careful - a hunter could miss his deer and hit one of them.

Skunkabilly
August 17, 2004, 11:37 AM
Oleg...beautiful! I like it!

StopTheGrays
August 17, 2004, 11:41 AM
Not to nit pick but has the rifle the model is holding ever been called an "assault rifle" in any sourced material? I am not sure what would be a good replacement either.

BigG
August 17, 2004, 12:08 PM
Nice pic of the SS. :D I will guess the model is P95.

twoblink
August 17, 2004, 12:12 PM
Well.. a .357Mag Buffalo Bore load out of a 18" rifle exceeds 30-30 specs.. so they want to bang the 357Mag too? What about the .44Mag?

I like the poster, nice Steyr Scout.

Fly320s
August 17, 2004, 12:16 PM
I like it, but I also think that the rifle should be a more mainstream, wood stocked rifle. A lever gun would be perfect.

Also, since us hunters are thought of, and portrayed as, a bunch of good ol' boys, maybe you could have a model who more closely represents that image.

Sam Adams
August 17, 2004, 12:21 PM
I'll fifth or sixth the call for a wood-stocked lever gun...and a Model 94 is probably the most recognizable of those. Otherwise, a great poster.

effengee
August 17, 2004, 12:31 PM
I love your art work...

"I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like."

Granted, that rifle isn't the first one I'd choose to represent the venerable old .30-30 cartridge. My choice? A model 94 Winchester with a scope. No contest... However, I totally agree with showing a rifle that any given "uninformed millionth mom" would easily recognize as an evil weapon of mass destruction and not something to hunt innocent little deer with.

OLEG, How about getting as many different weapons together as possible that all chamber the .30-30 and doing one of your fantastic photo's of all the weapons that will be useless as a result of the ban... And the line how they try to ban them one at a time, seeking to take them all...
Some of those million moms may recognize the weapon that put venison in their kids starving mouths last season...

Sincerely,
Jim Hazell

BryanP
August 17, 2004, 01:25 PM
Nice. If you want a nice 1894 levergun to pose with it you can borrow mine. It's the .357 magnum version, not 30-30, but the cosmetic differences are minor enough.

Marlin 336C in 30-30
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/images/firearmImages/336C.jpg


Marlin 1894C in .357
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/images/firearmImages/1894C.jpg

ctdonath
August 17, 2004, 01:38 PM
The Steyr Scout has been referred to as an "assault weapon" in print somewhere a few years ago. Check Cooper's Commentaries for references thereto.

I have taken a Steyr Scout to a precision long-range course (http://www.donath.org/Rants/StormMountain) (described as "sniper training without the tactics"). Works very nicely to 900+ yds (with a 10x scope).

The Steyr Scout was specifically designed to be "general purpose", including hunting.

Hence the indicated label fits nicely, and the choice of rifle for the picture is ideal. And being a bolt-action .308, the .30-30 is obviously next.

Oleg Volk
August 17, 2004, 01:55 PM
Might need to re-shoot the photo, as I didn't have a suitable photo with a centerfire lever action. Did have pictures of Gus's guy with a 30-30 but he was too dressed up in it.

Langenator
August 17, 2004, 02:04 PM
Oleg-

Talk to George Hill. He's got that green .30-30 Marlin.

effengee
August 17, 2004, 02:09 PM
In blaze orange camouflage, in a stand....

It would be a better picture...

JMHO

Just My Humble Opinion

MrAcheson
August 17, 2004, 02:11 PM
You might want to dress the guy in deer hunting gear with blaze orange hat, etc. just to ram home the hunting connection.

Oleg Volk
August 17, 2004, 02:15 PM
Will re-shoot and re-edit.

bogie
August 17, 2004, 02:18 PM
Yeah, needs to be something that can be put up at gun stores - camo and a deer stand... While you're at it, what perzactly did Kerry say? Any good sound bite type stuff we can use?

bogie
August 17, 2004, 02:19 PM
Oh yeah... I'd kill the text at the top. I'd put the "middle" text below the image, and I'd run the quote larger. That's what you want the folks to notice.

Amish_Bill
August 17, 2004, 02:20 PM
I'm seconding the idea of a reasonably attractive female in proper orange hunting garb. A more traditional bolt gun would be a bonus.

Nathanael_Greene
August 17, 2004, 02:41 PM
How about a picture that's 100+ years old? Oleg, I know you prefer your own original work, but the juxtaposition you're seeking might be better illustrated using a vintage picture.

The 30-30's been around an awful long time, yet somehow civilization has not succumbed to the carnage predicted by Teddy.

entropy
August 17, 2004, 02:48 PM
Great poster, Oleg!:) To increase the impact of the statement, I would suggest one small change:

While I think the Steyr Scout is an excellent hunting weapon, and we as shooters and hunters know many hunters do use synthetic stocked rifles and shotguns for hunting (myself included, an 870 with a SpeedFeed III, and a CVA Bobcat M/L), there is a vast untapped asset for the 2A cause. They are the "drag the deer rifle out of the closet the night before" crowd, the guys who will say "They'll never take my guns away, but secretly hope they ban 'AK's and such' because 'nobody hunts with them.'
These are the guys who will vote for Kerry, and believe in their hearts he would never try to take away their guns. I work with several of these types, and I'm sure most of us know some.Even a lot of them would see the Steyr Scout as a 'sniper rifle'. By putting it in context, effengee's suggestion is an excellent way to do this, BTW, It drives the point home to all those fence sitting hunters while simultaniously planting the seed in non-hunting /anti' s minds that " Maybe some hunters do use "that" type of rifle to hunt with.

With this in mind, I suggest using the same model (he has a rugged, outdoorsy look, but not in a polo shirt) and have him wearing a basic plaid shirt with an orange vest over it. The plaid shirt would say he's an ordinary guy, could be a constuction worker, could be a systems administrator (guess he'd need a pocket protector for that...;) ), but it would convey the message more congruently. (FWIW, yes, I've worn polos shooting before....)

Cortland
August 17, 2004, 02:52 PM
I think a bolt-action would be more familiar to most hunters. Why not a 100+ year old Krag? Oh no, wait -- that's one of those rifles designed for the *military*, what with its maximum hip shooting spray fire and ability to mow down a classroom full of bunny rabbits.

Amish_Bill
August 17, 2004, 02:54 PM
Look at the picture people!

The more modern, Evil Sniper Rifle is the subject of the first text block. GrandPa's old lever action is the subjectt of the second text block.

Oleg - Maybe a second visual element should be added - the old lever action in proximity to the second text block, and make the first text block more apparently tied to the newer "sniper" rifle?

Matt G
August 17, 2004, 03:13 PM
First, I like the concept.

Second, though, bring home that the homey-looking thutty-thutty is under attack, here. Put a weathered old traditional one in the shot. Lean it against the wall to the side. You could even find you a "Mountain Man" [tm], suitably dressed, to have the levergun over his shoulder, for a nice juxtaposition.

Sistema1927
August 17, 2004, 03:14 PM
Keep the Steyr Scout. As Amish Bill has stated, that is the subject of the first text block. However, along with entropy, I believe that your model needs to look more "outdoorsy". I like the idea of the plaid shirt and safety vest, and would stay away from camo since that would look too "tactical".

Richardson
August 17, 2004, 03:22 PM
Since everybody's weighing in as "wannabe artists" (Oleg, I can't come up with an original idea - and my photography STINKS - hats off to you), I'll belly up too. Others have said similar things...

Someone with a scoped bolt action hunting rifle, in blaze orange and in the woods over the first phrase.... Next to it a hunter with a .30-30 (maybe a black & white of Teddy Roosevelt, or a scene that could have come from "The Waltons") with the Kennedy quote. As others have said, give a time & place for the quote.

Oleg, you've given me some of the best ammunition the internet ever provided... thanks.

Richardson

Tharg
August 17, 2004, 03:37 PM
I love the poster... Have to agree w/ everyone that on 1st looks everyone who DOESN'T know much about the variety of guns are gonna see "synthetic w/ a scope" - and not necesarily "dad's lever action"

Understood the top/bottom text block stuff - just pictures usually make the impact, w/ the words comming into someone's brain secondary.

Also - of course Teddy is leary of any gun w/ a scope that could puncture armour - look at his families history...

If we are doing quotes - doesn't kerry have a good one somewhere about ALL centerfile cartridges?

J/Tharg!

1911Tuner
August 17, 2004, 03:52 PM
Been sayin' it for years...They can't get all the guns and they know it. They'll go after the ammo. Ammunition isn't covered under the 2nd Amendment, therefore it's fair game.

Sporting centerfire rifle ammunition will penetrate 3A Kevlar vests...Banned!
Lead is an environmental hazard. Banned! Lead-encapsulated bullets in handgun ammo can still be used in a concealable weapon. Taxed at 1,000% plus fees for the background check!

Cheers!

Tuner

patent
August 17, 2004, 04:03 PM
FWIW, I think the idea of adding a picture of the same model with a wood stocked 30-30 (no scope, IMHO) is a good idea. I might put it in as a background on the right half (or lower right). I might add to the text in the lower right too: "Senator Kennedy, 2004, while trying to ban .30-.30 ammunition"

Nice poster either way.

patent

bogie
August 17, 2004, 04:08 PM
Idea...

Shot of the case head of an "older" .30-30 round...

"8 point buck, Missouri Ozarks, 1939"

Shot of the case head of a "newer" .30-30 round...

"Kennedy quote"

TheOtherOne
August 17, 2004, 04:17 PM
I love the poster... Have to agree w/ everyone that on 1st looks everyone who DOESN'T know much about the variety of guns are gonna see "synthetic w/ a scope" - and not necesarily "dad's lever action"I thought that was the idea when I looked at it. The rifle he is holding is the evil "sniper assault weapon" and now if some freedom grabbers in the senate have their way then even your lever action is going to be classified as such ("Your 30-30 is next!").

mohican
August 17, 2004, 04:50 PM
But I thought that our hunting senator from Mass, John Kerry, graduated from 22s to a 30-30, just like the rest of us?

Oh, that's right, the whistle stop midwest tours, complete with gun club visits was sooooo 2 weeks ago.

Yup, out to 100, 150 yards the ole thutty-thutty is ballistically superior to that evil warhorse 7.62x39. And if a 7.62 in a 10 shot SKS is dangerous, a 7 shot 336 or 1894 assault lever is just as bad:rolleyes:

raz-0
August 17, 2004, 05:06 PM
I think it should be redone as two pictures. The kennedy quote stands well enough on it's own, and sticking it right along a hunter witha 30-30 would be a useful image for the library.

StopTheGrays
August 17, 2004, 05:42 PM
Look at the picture people!

I did and it does not mesh with the first statement. I found no listing of the Steyr Scout being refered to as an "Sniper Assault Weapon" anywhere on the internet that was not a gaming site. Even there it was never directly called a "Sniper Assualt Weapon". Anyone who can find one please link it.

So if you are sure you want to keep the rifle, at least change the first statement to something that was truely said or can be quoted as the second statement can be.

TheOtherOne
August 17, 2004, 05:57 PM
I did and it does not mesh with the first statement. I found no listing of the Steyr Scout being refered to as an "Sniper Assault Weapon" anywhere on the internet that was not a gaming site. Even there it was never directly called a "Sniper Assualt Weapon". Anyone who can find one please link it.

So if you are sure you want to keep the rifle, at least change the first statement to something that was truely said or can be quoted as the second statement can be.Just because there is no reference to that particular rifle being called that doesn't mean there are not plenty of hunters that would look at that black/grey rifle and think "what an evil weapon, what would you ever need anything like that for" while at the same time caress their 30-30. The term "Sniper Assault Weapon" is something you would expect a legislator to cram down the publics throat to make them think "evil baby killing gun".

bogie
August 17, 2004, 06:00 PM
Thing is, your average bambi-blastin' bubba who is gonna vote for Kerry because his grandpappy was a democrat is gonna look at the Steyr, and think "Well, I wouldn't have me no rifle that looks like that."

Make it the "lowest common denominator" of centerfire rifles - a Winchester 1894 .30-30.

StopTheGrays
August 17, 2004, 06:02 PM
You have a valid point TheOtherOne. I guess I feel something like an SKS would have been a better choice, maybe one in a MC stock.

Gifted
August 17, 2004, 06:45 PM
I like the idea of using an antique print. Perhaps a collage with that and a modern pic, kind of like what Bogie and Richardson were suggesting:
Shot of the case head of an "older" .30-30 round...

"8 point buck, Missouri Ozarks, 1939"

Shot of the case head of a "newer" .30-30 round...

"Kennedy quote" But:
*Old black and white picture*
"hunting quote or whatever"
*modern picture, probably a shot of a guy with a deer or something*
"Kennedy quote"

cidirkona
August 17, 2004, 07:56 PM
I don't like the idea of the "100-years ago" look. You're not trying to sell the idea to ancient dead people. You're trying to sell it to fence riders or people with a doubt in their mind that their anti-gun policy might be too strict/dangerous/immoral/unlawful/idiodic. I'd say, keep it the way it is, but switch from the synthetic to wood stock.

People who don't know apples from oranges aren't going to notice weather it's auto-fed, bolt action, lever action or whatnot. They WILL notice if it LOOKS like a hunting rifle or if it's black (and yes, many people are just that stupid).

Just my two cents - Oleg, keep up the good work... You should send me some poster sized ones so I can plaster them up all over my cubicle... hahah (just kidding, I'd get fired for that, sad, huh?)

-Colin

ctdonath
August 17, 2004, 09:13 PM
The poster's point is obviously to start with the closest "you don't need that" rifle, then point out that "your 'untouchable' hunting rifle is next".

The Steyr Scout serves the first part nicely, by being both ugly/plastic (invoking the "assault weapon" perception), and by being scoped (invoking "sniper"). Being a .308 - the preferred sniper round - helps.

Apparently some confused it with being a .30-30. Showing a lever-action for that might help.

flatdog
August 17, 2004, 11:22 PM
While not exactly a reference to the Styer Scout as an "Sniper Assualt Weapon".

This link below ( if not broken ) shows a patrol in Kosovo with the soldier in the foreground carrying a Styer Scout.

http://www.gun-world.net/austria/steyr/scout/kosovo.jpg

flatdog.

GigaBuist
August 17, 2004, 11:37 PM
Shave the moustache, grow the beard out longer, toss him in Amish looking clothes and hand him a '94 lever action of some kind. You can't get much more innocent than that!

If'in I'm ever your kneck of the woods I'll volunteer. I'm told I look pretty Amish with my beard grown out :)

Roc_Kor
August 17, 2004, 11:43 PM
I support putting an Winchester 94 on there and saying something about how long .30-30 has been around yet none of the things Teddy says haven't been problems for the decades (maybe a century) that the round has been around.

Cortland
August 17, 2004, 11:48 PM
Shave the moustache, grow the beard out longer, toss him in Amish looking clothes and hand him a '94 lever action of some kind. You can't get much more innocent than that!
I don't think the Amish would approve of smokeless powder. It's even newer than electric lightbulbs!

Standing Wolf
August 18, 2004, 12:08 AM
You need to punctuate "30-30" the same way as often as it appears. I'm not sure what the correct punctuation is.

JShirley
August 18, 2004, 01:42 AM
This poster is a young man who wrote me five years or so ago, asking me questions about Kel-Tec. Comments soon devolved into all manner of gun-related info, though I don't remember if I suggested he visit TFL, or he stumbled in on his own. ;)

It's user Glamdring. Careful, Guy- you're starting to look like an early Steve Hayes. :D

John

BigG
August 18, 2004, 08:14 AM
You could also get a picture of Teddy Roosevelt with one of his lever guns and use the "Senator Kennedy Wants to Ban Your 30/30!" or similar. ;)

Tinker
August 18, 2004, 10:23 AM
I like the poster almost just as it is. The point here is to show (to Mr. Traditional 30/30, they won't dare come after my Pappy's deer gun) folk that if one man's deer gun can be muscled out because of simple cosmetics then so can the traditional 30/30.

The only thing I'd change would be the rifle. I don't even know what that is. I'm not a gun expert but I've been around hunting/guns for a long time and don't recognize that particular rifle. There are, from what I hear, millions of SKS's in the States and a lot are used to hunt with. Maybe one of those with the Monte Carlo synthetic hunting type stock. That kind Cabelas sells as an add for after market replacement. Oleg, maybe you got a freind with one like that? Still the cosmetics there to make the point, but a tad more familiarity for average Joe.

BTW, your all around photography work is amazing. Love the portraits you did of your friends.

keyhole
August 18, 2004, 10:54 AM
Home run again Oleg!

armoredman
August 18, 2004, 11:05 AM
I like it, Oleg. Nice job.
Flatdog, be careful with that picture - that's Kosovo Freedom Fighters in that pic, with the Steyr, and an AK, and an M16. Kinda what we might look like, if TSHTF.....

Kaylee
August 18, 2004, 11:27 AM
The only thing I'd change would be the rifle. I don't even know what that is.

You don't recognize the absolute be-all-end-all-absolutely-the-best-ever-general-purpose-sport-utility-rifle??
;)


Do a search on "Steyr Scout" and "Jeff Cooper" :)

That said.. I LIKE the image as it is -- it says what it means. First came the full-autos, then the semi-autos, now swoopy-looking bolt guns are getting some heat... the ol' .30-30 is in line for the same treatment eventually.


I wouldn't change a thing.

Tinker
August 18, 2004, 12:29 PM
Kaylee,

"You don't recognize the absolute be-all-end-all-absolutely-the-best-ever-general-purpose-sport-utility-rifle??"

That purty rifle in the poster looks "high-dollar".

I've been low-middle income most of my life, so if it costs more than $300 I pay it no attention while shopping. :)

My usual comment at a gun selling place is "How much is that old, beat up one there?" :(

flatdog
August 18, 2004, 12:45 PM
armoredman: Point taken.

:D

flatdog.

Muzzleflash
August 18, 2004, 01:34 PM
Amish use modern firearms, mostly sporting rifles and shotguns for deer.

They're my #1 place to sell used shotguns.

cidirkona
August 18, 2004, 01:59 PM
How many bushels of corn does a good used shotgun go for now-a-days?

-Colin

Oleg Volk
August 18, 2004, 02:13 PM
Blaze orange is out. Too many people think it looks like prison jumpsuits. I'll make a lever action version.

MountainPeak
August 18, 2004, 08:35 PM
Lever version would be better. Just one of the old stand bys. I sure wish I could get some of my lever/bolt gun buddies to pay more attention to 2nd Amendment issues. The mind set that bans, will never touch THEIR guns, is maddening. I'm working on them, but man it is a tough sell. Levers/bolts/shotguns, they just don't believe they will ever come for them.

dadman
August 18, 2004, 10:00 PM
Consider holding a traditional looking bolt-action deer rifle in one hand, a lever-action in the other, and both buttstocks resting on top of hips, muzzles up.
For garb, orange vest, plaid shirt, and jeans.
Hopefully, the hunting only crowd will get it.

Skimming through all the replies, this may have already been mentioned and I might have missed it.

Amish_Bill
August 18, 2004, 11:24 PM
If possible, try to get one of those "old-fashionedy" orange hunting hats. To make it appeal to the frugal hunting types, I have a cheap pullover orange vest that can be used.

MountainPeak
August 18, 2004, 11:51 PM
dadman, of all the posts, your poster idea is the one, I would like to plop down in front of my hunting(why do you need THAT gun or THAT many rounds) buddies!:banghead:

effengee
August 19, 2004, 01:46 AM
Ask them why they (MOST not ALL, and yes I am definately stereotyping) hunters will spend thousands of dollars on a rifle, hundreds of dollars on a scope, dozens of hours waiting in the bush, then take that one single shot and not even eat the meat... They give it away.

I don't care for any other sport nor do I care to watch them played on T.V.
I have "normal/mainstream" hobbies that don't include gunpowder.

What difference does it make if I want to shoot the same soda can with a .177 BB and a .700 nitro express???
I don't think it should matter what ammo I buy or what gun I own...

The same thing with cars...
Speed limit is 65 on the freeway and 50 unless otherwise posted.
I should be able to drive a VW down it one day and a Ferrari the next...

My firearm is just a tool, I am the weapon.

jim

zpo
August 20, 2004, 06:32 AM
http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/store/products/displayProductImage.asp?productID=315703&imageDescription=BLAZE+ORANGE+BASEBALL+CAPS

How bout some orange like this? It doesnt look like a prison jump suit.

Glamdring
August 20, 2004, 05:25 PM
Oleg, I have an evil AK-47 now :evil: so next time your in town give me a call and we can do more pics.

I don't know about using a 30-30, what about a 1886 for a lever gun? :)

PS You don't have to make lots of money to own expensive guns, you just have to live on a budget. I was making less than $20k a year when I bought the Scout rifle.

magsnubby
August 20, 2004, 06:28 PM
Everybody knows gangbangers and assassins use scoped 30.30 Winchester '94's.

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