[Drjones]

Well, gentlemen, the idiot white-hater has struck again. (Yes, the same from "Another Anti-American Liberal professor" thread.)

If you don't mind, I think I'm going to make these threads a series.

SO, today in class my prof spewed some absolute gems. Here they are.

Please do respond with the TRUTH, as I know he is ignorant of it, and what he says doesn't even resemble anything that could even pretend to be a cogent thought.


-"Gun companies produce more guns than are sold in stores." What he went on to say is that those guns that aren't sold in stores are sold at gun shows, where "it has been documented" that it is much easier to buy a gun. These guns so "easily" bought at gun shows, of course, end up in the hands of criminals.

-"People buy lots of guns at once and then sell them to criminals." My rebuttal: Wait a sec; I have a Beretta I bought for $700. You think some gangbanger has that kind of money to buy guns with???

His response: "People who buy guns in quantity get them at a discount."

-"It has been documented that it is easier to get a gun at a gunshow."


That said, where do guns used in crime come from? I know the majority are stolen, but how 'bout the rest? I told him that a lot of guns are imported by criminals.


Thanks all. I'll let you do what you do best now...

[JeepDriver]

The gun shoe loophole does not exist!(At least in Maryland) Every time I have bought a gun at a show it has been called in. I have not bought a handgun at a show as of yet but all the C&R guns I have bought have been called in to the FBI for a Background check.

When I sat C&R I'm talking about old bolt action mil surp type rifles. Nagants, K31, & 98's. If those types or rifles require a FBI check I'm worried about what I'll have to go through to get a Semi auto rifle or a pistol.

I wonder where this loophole idea came from? Around here there aren't people standing around outside offering handguns for sale. I wouldn't buy a Beretta or a Glock from anyone outside of a show that is offering it for $250 or what ever the anti's claim happens at shows.

Sorry I can't provide facts Dr. Jones, I just needed to vent some steam after reading your post.

[Don Gwinn]

His argument is self-defeating. The premises required for one of his conclusions negate the other if true.

1. He claims that people buy guns in bulk and resell them to "criminals." This is actually true, although "bulk" is not the numbers he's probably imagining. It's also a very uncommon way for guns used in the commission of crimes to be acquired (most common by a long shot is theft and gifts from family.) Lots of people buy illegal guns with no intent to use them in crimes (other than possession of the gun) simply because their locale offers them no hope of purchasing a legal gun. New York and Chicago come to mind.

2. He then claims that this occurs mostly at gun shows, because "it's easier to get a gun at a gun show." The only way it could be considered "easier" to get a gun at a gun show would be the fact that a background check is not required. However, the background check is only waived when purchasing from a private individual--not purchases from dealers. It would take a long time to collect a bulk purchase of guns by going from individual to individual, and there would be no "bulk discount" because you wouldn't be buying in bulk from any one source.

[Don Gwinn]

Jeepdriver, if you bought those three rifles at retail as an unlicensed person, you paid too much. A C&R would only have cost you $30 for the next three years. You owe it to yourself to consider a C&R.
Won't be any background check that way, either, nor will you have to worry about waiting periods anymore. At least, not for C&R guns.

[Pilgrim]

All sales in California have to go through a FFL dealer including private party transfers. This includes gun show transactions. Do transfers take place without being recorded by an FFL? Sure, but that's against the law, isn't it?

Bruce

[cuchulainn]

-"It has been documented that it is easier to get a gun at a gunshow."

I don't know if this is really how he presented this factoid to you, but always -- ALWAYS -- demand the source when someone says something like, "It has been documented."

This can be done politely (always better when you have an audience): "Wow, someone documented that? I'd be really interesting in looking over their findings. Would you mind giving me a source for that, please?"

If he cannot or will not give you a source, he looks bad.

If he does, you can check out the quality of the source and get back to him.

[jmbg29]

I thought you said that this was an ethnic studies class? Is your (I just can't bring myself to call him a professor) trying to suggest that firearms have an ethnicity? Is he trying to argue that ethnicity is a factor in arms trafficking? If not, and he isn't going to stick to the subject matter that you paid him to teach, it would be my advice to get your money back.

Any further interaction between you and he could be summed up by this Heinlein quote:"Never try and teach a pig to sing: it's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig."

[Joe Gunns]

Persons selling at gun shows are either private citizens or licensed dealers. Dealers must run background checks same as if selling from their premisis. Private citizens do not have to run background checks, same as if they ran an ad in the paper.

Largest gun show outfit in WA state, Washington Arms Collectors, requires members to pass background check as qualification for membership. Only members may buy or sell firearms at their shows. Members may not buy for third party. Doing so, or selling to a non-member results in loss of membership.

Firearms in criminal hands largely come from criminal sources, but I don't have actual figures on various criminal firearms sources, so can't help there.

P.S. FWIW: A word of advice in dealing with lib profs - keep your goal in mind. You are there to get a degree/certificate of some type. While some profs are mature and open-minded, many are not able to separate their personal bias from their subjective grading criteria. There are those that will give you lower grades on essays, papers, etc., because of your disagreement with them in class. There are some that will give you lower grades, even when all the graded work that has been returned to you is "A". This is true even if they SAY that they want to encourage open discussion. Back in the day I got that treatment twice from disagreeing once over issues much less emotional than gun rights.

Don't compromise your beliefs - you are doing the smart thing by looking for the "true facts" from the knowledgable people on this board - but also pick your battles wisely. Not every idiot must be answered. I believe that it is more important that you get your training and end up down the road in a more influential position from which to advocate, than that you :banghead: with some clown whose mind is like a steel trap: always closed, and hurt your academic progress. I am not advocating that you roll over, but that you pick your fights wisely. Be like the biblical Daniel, who mastered all of the Babylonian knowledge and skills ten times better than his teachers, but always maintained his core beliefs.

[SIGarmed]

The Federal governments own research shows something like less than 1% of guns used in crimes are bought at guns shows,but I don't have the stats in front of me. The other 99% are not! How is that for every criminal gets their guns from gun shows? Ask him for his documentation or at least its source.

I don't think this particular info is at this site below, but I'm sure you can find it and present it to him.

This link is good for busting myths also:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/gunfacts.pdf

[Stephen Ewing]

I'm the office manager at a gun store. This means I not only know as much about the guns as the clerks do, but I also know that much about the paperwork.

I pause while everyone stops laughing.

Maybe a long pause is needed.

Longer.

Seriously, it does at least allow me a professional opinion: "I would like to request a complete transcript. It is not remotely possible this individual has a valid understanding of how to lessen my paperwork, but I suspect his ignorance grows exponentially funnier with increased detail." Feel free to quote that. If he hasn't had the usual experiences in gun stores, it might impress him more than it does us. :D

Tell him to ask his local ATF what happens if somebody buys 10 handguns on a Tuesday morning. Of if a manufacturer (after civilian and military contracts, pubicity write-offs, demos, warranty replacements, donations, etc.) has any guns not sent to stores simply "disappear." They're right there in the blue pages under Treasury Department, and they'll be more than happy to explain why he's so wrong.

Steve

[Don Gwinn]

Mr. Ewing, you weren't paying attention. He explained that part already: the manufacturers keep a certain number back and sell them directly at gun shows. Next time you're at a gun show, just look for the Smith and Wesson booth. SHOT doesn't count. :)

[roscoe]

Dr. Jones,

Tell him to cite his references. Remind him that if he is an academic, he should be able to back up what he says. Otherwise, he is just making a bunch of unsubstatiated assertions, and anyone can do that.

[Stephen Ewing]

Oh, THOSE guns. The ones not sold to gun stores which also aren't sold to the goverment, shipped out as warranty replacement, donated to charity, given to reps as demos, given to gunrags for tests, submitted for trials, etc.

Why didn't somebody tell me "Doc's Walthers" really WAS Walther? I tell you, it's a deliberate conspiracy to keep the guys in the gun store in the dark. And then you have the gall to complain when we don't know something. :evil:

Steve

[Drjones]

I thought you said that this was an ethnic studies class? Is your (I just can't bring myself to call him a professor) trying to suggest that firearms have an ethnicity? Is he trying to argue that ethnicity is a factor in arms trafficking? If not, and he isn't going to stick to the subject matter that you paid him to teach, it would be my advice to get your money back.

Well, he's not really doing that, we were having a discussion about the Iraq war, and suddenly he pulled guns into it. He was talking about how many weapons of all sorts we manufacture, etc. etc.

If he dared to correlate race and guns, I would point out (as he actually already did! :eek: ) that the first gun control laws were passed by evil whites to prevent blacks from owning guns. That should shut him up right quick. :rolleyes:

Tell him to ask his local ATF what happens if somebody buys 10 handguns on a Tuesday morning. Of if a manufacturer (after civilian and military contracts, pubicity write-offs, demos, warranty replacements, donations, etc.) has any guns not sent to stores simply "disappear." They're right there in the blue pages under Treasury Department, and they'll be more than happy to explain why he's so wrong.

What exactly does happen?

And Joe gunns: VERY wise words. I will poke sticks at him for a bit longer, but perhaps stop if I feel it will affect my grade.

Funny thing is, I feel that I am the class spokesperson. Today I walked in, and there were several people talking about how he has been ranting, and just poking fun at him.

They don't agree with him very much at all! :what:

:D

However, most of the people in there just sit, shut up (or sleep) and wait for it to end.

I'd rather participate in trying to disprove his crazy, twisted ideas.

And at the end of the day today, some people even said to me, "Good job!"

:D

[CZ-75]

Buying two or more handguns at once means that an extra form is sent to the BATF to red flag the purchase.

I had it done to me once. I would've waited, but I had them transferred after buying them online and the transfer dealer's location and state permit system (valid 30 days only) made me just want to get it over with.

[Drjones]

Buying two or more handguns at once means that an extra form is sent to the BATF to red flag the purchase.


For anyone anywhere in the US?

[jmbg29]

Well, he's not really doing that, we were having a discussion about the Iraq war, and suddenly he pulled guns into it. He was talking about how many weapons of all sorts we manufacture, etc. etc.OK, I'll take the bait again, what does the Iraq war and/or weapons manufacture have to do with ethnic studies?

[Drjones]

OK, I'll take the bait again, what does the Iraq war and/or weapons manufacture have to do with ethnic studies?

Well, I don't really know what his point is.

He's really frustrating to listen to because he rants and raves and brings up so many different subjects (like guns in a discussion about the Iraq war).

He said at the end that his point was that America is taught to "live in fear of the other guy." How we "dehumanize" others to make it easier to kill them and garbage like that.

Oh, and he talked a lot about how many children get killed in war. He actually said that. I was incredulous. A real, live, "do it for the children" idjit standing right in front of me. Wow.

He said that 500,000 children alone have died in Iraq because of sanctions we imposed on them.

I quipped that if anybody has died, it is because they are living under a ruthless dictator, not because of US sanctions. I forget how he replied to that.

[jmbg29]

He said at the end that his point was that America is taught to "live in fear of the other guy."I hear that a lot these days. And while it is true that I have an irrational fear of sharks, I've never really been scared much by my fellow man. Maybe I am free from that fear by virtue of being prepared to protect myself and others if necessary. Hmmm...

I suppose that if I were a witless wonder like your (I can't bring myself to call him a professor), I might find that I was afraid more often than not. Poor (I can't bring myself to call him a professor), unarmed even in a battle of wits. How pathetic.

[UnknownSailor]

Ya know, the more I read these kind of threads, the happier I am that I never attended a 4 year "school".

I would have had a hard time keeping my hands off the clue stick, lest I beat these block-headed professors soundly about the head and shoulders with it.

[Baba Louie]

Interesting teachings you are being exposed to Drjones.

Gun Mfg's selling at gun shows? Hardly. I believe that some mfg's, like Ruger, sell to a limited number of licensed distributors (thats an ATF license I believe), who in turn, can sell them to your local licensed FFL Gunshop type dealer. This limits Ruger's exposure to illegal activity on the part of those who are allowed to purchase from them, and can be considered a very smart move.

Since Clinton decided to eliminate the kitchen table variety of FFL holder, the days of having your next door neighbor move qty of guns is probably over (and maybe thats a good thing?)

I've been going to gun shows since the 70's and I've oohed and aahed at mfg's boothes and picked up their literature, but since I'm not a licensed distributor or FFL holder, that's about all I can do. I've NEVER seen or heard of Firearms Mfg.s moving guns at your common garden variety gunshow.

I have read about Para-Ordnance employees "stealing" guns and selling them but that's a "Criminal" activity.

Buying a quantity or bulk of guns from either a distributor or FFL requires extensive paperwork and notification to the ATF (try buying two handguns at the same time, say, a consecutive numbered matched pair of Colt SAA's as a gift for your Dad and you'll see what I mean). Buying a bulk order for sale to criminals IS A CRIMINAL ACTIVITY and as such, people who do so (Straw Man) are by definition...Criminals. Doh!

Easier to get a gun at a gunshow? (Ask him to) "Prove it to me, please provide that (illusive) DOCUMENTATION" he talks about. It may depend on where you are living and the gunshow in particular. Here in Las Vegas, EVERY gun you buy from a table dealer requires the phone call to be made to the State Police with your SSN, address and DOB.

Buying from an individual (at the show) may be a different thing, but it's no different than looking though the classifieds and buying from Joe Schmo at his home. And its something, I've never chosen to do for some reason.

Please do not raise his ire too much. He is the MAN in that class and you would do well to keep your counsel to yourself to a degree if its a necessary class and your GPA is important to you.

If he allows challenges and spirited discourse from intelligent thinking students, that's one thing. If he uses the class as his "Bully Pulpit", that's another. It appears to be the latter as opposed to the former tho' from reading your words.

And as other's have asked (and I WOULD ASK HIM IN CLASS), what's this (his discourse on guns) got to do with the study of Ethnic Studies or Ethnocentricity? Will it be on the mid-term exam? An essay question, perhaps for a research paper discussing our culture's love/hate affair with firearms as it relates to our history and/or freedom?

At the risk of sounding maudlin, a discussion of his teaching ethnic studies and how his meandering editorials relate to same with either a negative or positive effect (on his teachings) may be a topic to bring up with the department head; but if he has tenure, that would be a moot point at best and could cause you problems down the road at worst.

May I suggest you form a study group with others in the class to go over his actual syllabus material and in so doing, discuss these ravings. If a consensus can be reached as to their effectiveness (or lack thereof) relative to "ethnic studies" and you as a group either judge them "good" or "bad", you may then decide to talk to another professor or a department head about his behaviour.

Or Not. Somethimes its best to just "Talk amongst yourselves"

Have fun, learn a lot. Keep us posted. It's fun to relive the collegiate experience viscariously via your posts.

Adios

[CZ-75]

For anyone anywhere in the US?


AFAIK. I believe this is a federal requirement.

[Baba Louie]

"He said at the end that his point was that America is taught to "live in fear of the other guy." How we "dehumanize" others to make it easier to kill them and garbage like that."

I do believe that most governments indoctrinate, reprogram their soldiers and "dehumanize" them allowing them to close with and kill the enemy without thinking too much about a living caring human being taking that bayonet in the gut or being bombed into jelly.

"Oh, and he talked a lot about how many children get killed in war. He actually said that. I was incredulous. A real, live, "do it for the children" idjit standing right in front of me. Wow."

True, children do die in Warfare. Though American soldiers don't strap bombs to kids and send them in to mingle with the enemy in order to blow the enemy to kingdom come. Others even go so far to hide behind women and kids in order to shoot between their legs, use them as human shields, etc, then claim that the Great Satan American soldiers actually killed these "Non-Combatants." Such is war. Most American troops are suckers for kids, from what I read.

"He said that 500,000 children alone have died in Iraq because of sanctions we imposed on them."

Yes, OUR nasty sanctions. Weren't those UN imposed sanctions designed to emasculate the great Saddam Hussein after his Kuwaiti fiasco? The fact that S.H. chooses not to comply with these UN sanctions is, of course, Our Fault and doing. We planned it that way. We planned it to take 12 years. We planned on these UN sanctions killing... how many kids? Yep, our fault.

In the words of the great Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon."

Ethnic Studies. Cultural differences, customs, characteristics, languages, etc.

Maybe, just maybe, the human race is not supposed to be homogeneous. Maybe there is a good reason that in Europe (for example) people on one side of a river speak one language and like beer, make WAR quite well and thrive on authority; on the other bank they like wine, speak some other tongue, eat cheese and surrender at the drop of a hat. I wonder WHY? I would like to think that THAT is what you'd be learning in such a class.

Or why one culture will willfully put to death any baby girls, yet spare the boys.

Things like that.

Apparently, that's not the case.

Adios

[Justin]

And Joe gunns: VERY wise words. I will poke sticks at him for a bit longer, but perhaps stop if I feel it will affect my grade. Poke sticks at him all you like, just so long as you do the work that's required. That way, if it comes to light that your questions/beliefs affected your grade, you can drag his sorry butt in front of the dean.

Never pass up the opportunity to make a fool out of an idiot when you have an audience to do so.

[joeoim]

Drjones: As I said before, you can't argue (or debate) with an idiot, you are just wasting your time.

I don't care what title this man has, if he is serious in this, he's an idiot.

When he makes these remarkes don't try to argue, ask him to for his references. Ask him to cite his source's for these statements. He won't be able to, but maybe some other students will try to check for themselves, and they will be enlightened.


Keep your cool ... Joe

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

He said at the end that his point was that America is taught to "live in fear of the other guy."

And WHO exactly is the most responsible for this type of fear-mongering that this idjit decries?

Seems the conservative response is to "be prepared", and live without all-pervading fear. Hence gun ownership in the seatbelt role.

Whereas the liberal bleating sheep role is to give in to fear, disarm the law-abiding, (Who're the only ones who listen.) and live in constant fear of the criminals who disregard the law, thus perpetuating the fear, REGARDLESS of the efforts of the law-compliant. What a great self-fulfilling, self perpetuating, ulcer-generating ideology. :rolleyes: :barf:

Of course, pointing this out generally only causes anger in response. People, particularly liberal "Highly Educated" elites like your typical career academician, really hate having their precious illusions burst. They take it personally, as an attack on their intelligence, education, and analytical skills, which is nominally what their entire career and "respected position" is based on. Basically, you can expect to make no progress trying to convince people to admit that they're idiots. They quit caring about the message, and simply get pissed at what they regard as a direct personal attack. Facts cease to matter in the face of self-righteous outrage.

They also KNOW that people can't be trusted not to shoot other people for weak reasons because they KNOW they themselves cannot be so trusted. They can only see their own minds for comparison when trying to empathize, and so are incapable of extending credit to an alternate position. A review of this mindset. (http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm) This is another position that's really hard to address because of the "convince 'em they're stupid" difficulty. That conjures up the caveat about this guy being in charge of your grade. Diplomacy has it's uses, after all, and at least the durnfool hasn't shouted you down in class simply for excercising your mind. :D