New XM-109 25mm Sniper Rifle


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lbmii
August 18, 2004, 01:39 AM
Link to new 25 mm sniper rifle.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_200481522.asp

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JShirley
August 18, 2004, 01:49 AM
Wow...I know 20mm "rifles" were developed a few years ago, but this is the first
time I've seen a 25mm. Thanks for the link! As I recall, the...Croatian? shoulder -fired cannon bled off some of the gas, reducing recoil. I see Barrett is concerned with this issue.

Short bl on that puppy, and heavy...I'd hate to carry it anywhere! A 35 lb mortar
is hard enough to march with. Barrett says this will provide "light fighters" with a useful tool? Rubbish. You need a vehicle to go anywhere with this bad boy. Just the weapon and ammo is a full combat load for a soldier, not factoring in any other gear, food, etc. Even then, that troop couldn't go far on foot, and probably no more than a mile in heat.

John

Andrew Wyatt
August 18, 2004, 02:14 AM
the rifle breaks down just like the .50.

presumeably the gun'll be carried by a three man team.

JShirley
August 18, 2004, 02:33 AM
Well, that's more reasonable. Still wouldn't want to carry that heavy bugger far,
in adverse conditions, with needed ammo and gear.

j

Trebor
August 18, 2004, 03:47 AM
When I'm trying to find out is if this fires the same ammo as the 25mm Bushmaster on the Bradley fires. The 25mm on the Bradley has been known to take out tanks with the DP ammo. If this thing can fire that ammo, this thing will give infantry a substanially increased anti-armor capability. Just cause it's a 25mm though, doesn't mean it will use the same ammo. Anyone know for sure?

Gabe
August 18, 2004, 03:57 AM
No this thing fires the 25mm grenade designed for the OCSW. Nowhere near as powerful as a Bushmaster shell.

lbmii
August 18, 2004, 05:32 AM
I wonder about the weight and velocity of the round.

Kharn
August 18, 2004, 08:39 AM
Any chance the ATF will rule it to be a "sporting" cartridge? :rolleyes:

Kharn

HankB
August 18, 2004, 09:53 AM
The cartridges are straight-wall, not bottlenecked, with a large projectile on a short cartridge case . . . think of a .22 LR bullet in a .22 CB cap case. That says low velocity to me . . . nothing like the 25mm Bushmaster round.

Considering that 20mm "rifles" like the Lahti and Solothurn were very heavy (>100 lbs?) to provide the strength to shoot a large high-pressure round AND to dampen the recoil, a 25mm "sniper rifle" firing the Bushmaster round would probably not be considered man-portable.

Preacherman
August 18, 2004, 10:11 AM
Sounds like they've taken a leaf out of South Africa's book... see here (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn55-e.htm) for more info.

SunBear
August 18, 2004, 10:18 AM
The beauty of this round is that it is an airburst round and at the moment of firing it is programmed to detonate at a certain range. Ideal for engaging OPFOR troops behind barricaades. And yes it is definitely a crew-served weapon. If the 81mm mortar is man-portable so is the xm-109, Yippee-yi-yo-ki-yay! Happy trails. :D

JShirley
August 18, 2004, 11:12 AM
Where do you find this is airburst? :confused:

The M-252 is not truly man-portable for any great distance, no matter what some believe.

John

Thumper
August 18, 2004, 11:29 AM
You're right, John. It doesn't use the airburst stuff yet. In spite of it's fancy schmancy optics, it doesn't have the ranging and computing capability for priming the OCWS shell.

From the site:

"At some point the system will also be integrated to use 25mm airburst ammunition designed for the OCWS."

I agree. 33 lbs is a load to have to hump.

GEM
August 18, 2004, 11:50 AM
I've read that they haven't beaten the recoil problem yet. It's 15 lbs over acceptable limits.

I want one.

WilderBill
August 18, 2004, 12:05 PM
Well, I suppose that 'man portable' is relative to the man involved and how far ya goota go with it.
When my brother in law got to Viet Nam, the CO took one look at him and issued him a Ma Duce. James was 6'9" and had trimed down to "only" a bit over 350 pounds at that point!

One thing this shoulder cannon does for us; we no longer need to discuss what would be the best thing to have with you in case of a bear attack.;)

JShirley
August 18, 2004, 01:18 PM
Heh. We can talk about "one shot stops" with some reality, now! :D

El Tejon
August 18, 2004, 01:37 PM
Everything old is new again, get out top hat . . . :D ATRs become AMRs.

Have been reading about this and testing on other AMRs down at Crane for a while. If the hibeens can get the weight down, this will be an outstanding special purpose tool!:cool:

Let's just hope they take their time and get it to work for our boys.:uhoh:

Preacherman, there are many ideas we should, er, um "borrow" from Suid Afrika.:D

armoredman
August 18, 2004, 02:05 PM
Like the SA Buffalo APC? That would work well with IEDs in Iraq...

jhisaac1
August 18, 2004, 04:15 PM
For some long-range sniper missions, a .50 caliber (12.7mm) round just isn’t big enough. <snip> Designed to destroy light armor...
Just a minor question. Since when is anti-armor a sniper mission?

O.F.Fascist
August 18, 2004, 04:35 PM
It will be pretty neat when they get the airbursting rounds working in this.

While a .50 cal could take out one person, with an airbursting round you could taking out a group of people at range.

Harry Tuttle
August 18, 2004, 04:38 PM
i think the SA chaps thought out the recoil issues a tad more than Barrett:
One drawback to the weapon is the heavy recoil of the round. Barrett is working on reducing the recoil. Finally, a company slide describes the weapon as a “payload rifle” and also alludes to the ability to remove the muzzle break and replace it with a sound suppressor

http://club.guns.ru/images/ntw/ntw2-sm.jpg
http://club.guns.ru/eng/ntw20.html

Reduction of weight is made possible by the efficient recoil system, which is built into NTW-20. First of all, 65% of the total weapon weight resides in the barrel action. This is able to recoil in a lightweight cradle or chassis. This free recoil is reduced by three separate devices that work in concert with each other. And that's where this rifle is interesting from the point of its concept!

_ The first of these is the hydraulic double acting damper, which soaks up the initial high velocity recoil (see diagram "NTW Recoil Management System"). The damper is provided with an expansion valve and chamber, which absorbs expansion of the fluid during climatic extremes. The standard damper can cope with temperatures of - 10° to + 60° Celsius. Also available are the dampers that can operate under the temperatures of - 25° to + 35° Celsius.

_ The second recoil absorber consists of a double acting spring buffer located in the lower rear chassis.
_ As the recoil slows, the hydraulic damper begins to do less work, but the spring buffer, as it begins to be compressed, works more efficiently near the end of its stroke. The graphs of these two systems neatly overlap each other to flatten the recoil peak, and extend the time over which the whole force is experienced. This yields a shove rather than the sharp high velocity kick, which is produced by systems not equipped with recoil management system (RMS).

_ Recoil is finally moderated also by an efficient double baffle muzzle brake, which has been carefully designed to minimize sound blast and dust signature.
_ The major factor with recoil is not the total amount of energy but the rate and the manner with which it is generated.

lbmii
August 18, 2004, 09:53 PM
Here is a link to the 25 mm machine gun that is to replace the M2 50 cal. I assume it uses the same ammo as the sniper rifle.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/heavy_machinegun.asp

JShirley
August 19, 2004, 12:14 AM
Harry, it still weighs 9 kg more than the Barrett, if I'm understanding the figures correctly.

John

Andrew Wyatt
August 19, 2004, 01:23 AM
I guess thisn't really a sniper rifle as much as a stupendously long range grenade launcher.

SunBear
August 19, 2004, 10:29 AM
DOD site claims the XM312 (50 BMG) weighs 43 lbs. -66% lighter than the 128 lb. M2 (50 BMG). Happy trails.

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