Gun Control in Darfur


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Nathanael_Greene
August 18, 2004, 01:04 PM
Don't think it couldn't happen here, if we were disarmed...

From The National Review Online:

Avoiding Genocide
The right to bear arms could have saved Sudan.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/kopel_gallant_eisen200408180824.asp

It is long past time for the United Nations and the rest of the international community to do more than bemoan genocide after the fact. It is time for formal international law to recognize the natural right of self-defense, and to acknowledge the universal human right of "having arms for their defense" so that, as a last resort, victims can "restrain the violence of oppression." As history has shown, as long as dictatorships exist, the only way to ensure the primary right to life is to guarantee the auxiliary right to arms.

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Pilgrim
August 18, 2004, 01:50 PM
Well, expanding the Lautenberg Amendment to include all misdemeanors would be a start.

Pilgrim

Standing Wolf
August 18, 2004, 03:28 PM
It is long past time for the United Nations to be sent packing to Zimbabwe, where it will fit right in with the local culture.

El Tejon
August 18, 2004, 03:55 PM
Same as it ever was, those without weapons are slaughtered by those with weapons. And Americans are told we must be disarmed for the "common good.":scrutiny:

If the U.S. and U.K. really cared about the Blacks in the Sudan, they would airdrop the arms caches they captured in Iraq into the Sudan. By not doing so they admit that control over people is far more important than preventing murder, genocide and saving lives.

The mission of government is to control you, not save you. :uhoh:

DesertEagle613
August 19, 2004, 01:45 PM
If one in twenty of the guys in Darfur had rifles and the skill to use them, the killing squads would wet themselves.

This is not difficult. Many are dying now who could have been saved.

moa
August 19, 2004, 02:17 PM
I did notice one odd error in the article. To give an idea of Sudan's size, the article said:

"ARMED RESISTANCE
Sudan is the largest country in Africa, over four times the size of Alaska."

I got a large Rand McNally world map right in front of me. Alaska is almost twice as large as Sudan. Algeria and Libya are almost as big as Sudan.

I guess geography is not one of the authors strengths.

Andrew Rothman
August 19, 2004, 03:13 PM
Fun with Google, math and geography:

sudan: 2,505,810 sq km (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html)

alaska: 656,425 sq mi (http://www.netstate.com/states/geography/ak_geography.htm)
= 1,700,133 sq km


1 sq mile = 2.5899 sq kilometers
(http://www.google.com/search?q=sq+miles+to+sq+kilometers)

2,505,810/1,700,133=1.4738

So, Sudan is almost exactly one-and-a-half times the size of Alaska.

Sizes on maps can be deceiving -- it depends on the projection (Mercator, etc) of the map. (Here's a fascinating little illustration of different projections: http://www.btinternet.com/~se16/js/mapproj.htm )

Here's an equal-area projection:
http://www.stanfords.co.uk/img_repos/mapcoverage_img/MAP_COVERAGE_121604_0000029047.jpg

I guess that geography isn't one of moa's strengths either! :D (duck)


edit: if you take "land area" only (leaving out lakes and such), Sudan is 1.6x the size of Alaska. Still nowhere near 4x...

KLR
August 19, 2004, 03:22 PM
From an Alaska facts website: Alaska covers 656,425 square miles

From Britannica.com: Covering 966,757 square miles (2,503,890 square kilometers), the Republic of the Sudan is the largest country in Africa.

Depending upon the projection used, maps/charts tend to distort the apparent size of land masses near the poles. Greenland typically looks huge when it actually isn't as big. Take a look at a globe which has no such distortion- you can tell the Sudan is bigger than Alaska.

This has a somewhat convoluted explanation of projections:Map Projections (http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/fwmg/projections.html)

Four years of navigation classes will do that to you! :D

KLR
August 19, 2004, 03:28 PM
Oh hell Matt, you beat me!

Read any good "Badge of Honor" books lately?

Andrew Rothman
August 19, 2004, 03:29 PM
One more thing: if you take 2.5 million (the sq km of the Sudan) and divide by 656,000 (the sq mi of Alaska) you get about 3.8. I think that the authors, like NASA on the Mars mission, forgot to change consistently to metric units!

Eek!

Andrew Rothman
August 19, 2004, 03:39 PM
Oh hell Matt, you beat me!

Read any good "Badge of Honor (http://www.webgriffin.com/badge.html)" books lately?

Thanks for noticing. The last one, "Final Justice," wasn't all that great, but I do own them all.

KLR
August 19, 2004, 03:49 PM
COOL! I just checked the link. :D :D :D

I didn't know a new one was out yet. THANKS!!!!!!!

Must . . . buy!

Andrew Rothman
August 19, 2004, 04:30 PM
KLR - where are ya in the Midwest? If you're in Minneapolis you can read my copy...

KLR
August 19, 2004, 05:43 PM
SE Michigan, actually. I'll pick it up this weekend or ask the wife to.

Thanks! :cool:

Trebor
August 20, 2004, 12:52 AM
KLR,

Where in SE Michigan are you? I'm in Novi and I could meet you at a range some time next week and loan you the book. It's really a dissapointing book in a couple ways. The worst thing is that Griffith updated the setting from the '70s to now. The characters didn't age though, they just now are in contemporary times and have cell phones, computers, Glocks, etc.

twency
August 20, 2004, 08:25 AM
Interesting quote from the linked article:The solution to the worldwide violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the worldwide recognition of one more human right. As the great English jurist William Blackstone explained, core human rights would be "the dead letter of the laws" if not guarded by "auxiliary rights." So the law "has therefore established certain other auxiliary subordinate rights of the subject, which serve principally as barriers to protect and maintain inviolate the three great and primary rights, of personal security, personal liberty, and private property."

Thus, "The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject...is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute ...and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."Particularly interesting in the context of this board, as the right to self defense is frequently described and/or thought of as the fundamental human right above all others, by some on this board (including, I assume, our illustrious board owner). This seems to be a slightly different formulation: personal security is the basic core right, and the right to keep and bear arms defensively is an auxilliary right supporting that core right.

I suppose one might say it's all just semantics, but it caught my eye because of the context of being linked from THR.

-twency
____________________

A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

Andrew Rothman
August 20, 2004, 12:39 PM
One more thing: if you take 2.5 million (the sq km of the Sudan) and divide by 656,000 (the sq mi of Alaska) you get about 3.8. I think that the authors, like NASA on the Mars mission, forgot to change consistently to metric units!

Sheesh.

I contacted the National Review over 24 hours ago, pointed out the error, and gave them the calculations and citations above.

They haven't fixed it.

Apparently they don't care all that much about their credibility. :(

KLR
August 20, 2004, 07:40 PM
Trebor-

Thanks for the offer, but I am very busy over the next few days (reserve weekend etc.) I have no time. :mad:

Why would Griffin mess with a good thing? That makes no sense, whatsoever.

I work in Detroit proper, and live on the west side, not too far from (but a little to the south of) you.

Been to Top Gun shooting sports yet? I know Taylor is a little out of the way, but it is a cool shop. Nice atmosphere.

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