Bear stopped by 12ga slug in NY State


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gunsmith
August 19, 2004, 04:36 PM
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1769&dept_id=74969&newsid=12727600&PAG=461&rfi=9
It seems not everyone in NY is terrified of having a shotgun in the house.
Bear's dinner visit proves deadly
By Steve Earley , Freeman staff 08/19/2004
HIGHMOUNT - A 3-year-old black bear that had been repeatedly harassing a Highmount woman and entering her home was shot dead Tuesday by the woman's uncle when the bear entered the home again just after the two sat down to dinner.

Robert Grennie said the bear had chased his niece, Candice Backstrom, inside from gardening four times and had entered her Rolling Brook Road home on several occasions, destroying an aluminum sliding door, freezer and about $125 worth of food.

"Her life was in danger," Grennie said of Backstrom, who was unavailable for comment Wednesday.

Grennie said he shot the male bear around 7 p.m. Tuesday. He said the bear broke in to the kitchen through a screen door and looked like it was rising up to claw at him when he shot it from three feet away with a 12-gauge shotgun slug.

"I am very, very sorry it had to happen, because I love animals," said Grennie, a retired Ulster County sheriff's deputy.

While it is technically illegal to shoot a bear out of season unless it is attacking a beehive or livestock, Department of Environmental Conservation Police Lt. Deming Lindsley said the 80-year-old Big Indian man was within reason to destroy the bear that he said was forcing his niece to be prisoner in her own home.

"You have a right to defend your property," said Lindsley. "I don't want to have to wait till I see claw marks on an individual."

Lindsley said measures that most of time succeed in driving bears away, such as removing outside food sources and shooting the animal with rubber buckshot, failed in this case.

In response to Tuesday's incident, Grennie said he wrote State Sen. John J. Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, encouraging the lawmaker to push for an earlier start to the bear hunting season, a measure Grennie said would help control a Catskills bear population that, according to wildlife officials, has quadrupled since 1995.

After a three-year freeze on bear hunting 15 years ago, the bear hunting season, which used to coincide with the start of deer hunting season in mid-November, now begins more than a week later.

"When you open the deer season two weeks ahead of the bear season, the bears are already instinctively warned," Grennie said. As a result, he said, fewer bears are killed and the population grows.

Bonacic said if the number of bear encounters continues to rise he will pursue amending the hunting schedule.

"There has been a problem with black bears in the Shandaken area moreso this year than last year," he said. "If the aggression of the bears is going to get worse, (I) will put pressure on the DEC to enact changes."

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ZeroX
August 19, 2004, 05:04 PM
And we score another point in the eternal struggle known as "Man Vs. Nature".

Brat7748
August 19, 2004, 05:33 PM
While it is technically illegal to shoot a bear out of season unless it is attacking a beehive or livestock, Department of Environmental Conservation Police Lt. Deming Lindsley said


So I guess if it attackes you or your "chillen" it ok, just not beehives and livestock...well this is New York and law may well have been written by people who have never even seen a bear out side of the zoo!

Drjones
August 19, 2004, 06:25 PM
When I toured my local FBI headquarters, I got to see a piece of 2" thick bullet-resistant plexiglass that had a 2" diameter hole in it, courtesty of a 12 ga slug.

Doesn't surprise me that it would take a bear right down.

mete
August 19, 2004, 07:43 PM
They wouldn't even invite him for dinner ! That's the northern end of my county. Had one knock on my door last year but chased him away.There are lots of bear here.

RCL
August 19, 2004, 08:51 PM
There were 95 bear killed during hunting season last year in a 6 county area the NYS DEC calls the Allegany Region. Since you can't use a rifle to hunt big game in this area, chances are good most of them were killed with shotgun slugs (handguns, muzzleloaders and bows are also legal hunting implements in this area).

middy
August 19, 2004, 09:14 PM
And why not? A 12 gauge is the perfect close range anti-bear weapon. Low-cost, high-power, tough, and reliable.

Stand_Watie
August 19, 2004, 09:31 PM
So I guess if it attackes you or your "chillen" it ok, just not beehives and livestock...well this is New York and law may well have been written by people who have never even seen a bear out side of the zoo!

It may have been that the law was written under the presumption that black bears do not attack humans, period. I've seen reputable claims that this is the case, regarding black bears which have a normal exposure to humans. I've even heard one biologist claim that a black bear typically won't even defend her den or cubs against humans (who'd like to test that theory?).

I think that there is however, a new norm regarding the relationship between black bears and humans in a lot of the country due to decreased hunting and increased share of habitat, and that we're going to see a lot more of these sort of attacks in the near future. An infant was killed by a black bear at a NY campground a few years back.

Sunray
August 19, 2004, 11:31 PM
Say Gunsmith, did you or can you forward this to the guy in KY who got charged for almost the same thing? May give his lawyer a bit of ammo. Mind you, it's not quite the same thing considering the NY kid was chased 4 times by Yogi. Either way, it can't hurt.

nico
August 20, 2004, 12:04 AM
Could it be that the law was an old one that was written under the presumption that noone would be stupid enough to prosecute someone who shot a bear in self defense? Oh wait, it's new york:p

tcsd1236
August 20, 2004, 05:28 AM
It seems not everyone in NY is terrified of having a shotgun in the house.
Where did you ever get the idea that we were?

mete
August 20, 2004, 05:40 AM
Here's another way you could do it. [url]www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/08/18/bear.beer.reut/index.html Stand_Watie, the infant that was killed here a few years ago could hardly be called an "attack", it was an accident waiting to happen.....

stevelyn
August 20, 2004, 08:38 AM
Okay folks, here is some unsolicited advice for those of you who live where bears are making a comeback.
Alaska law allows for killing of bears in defense of life and property. However, be prepared to justify your actions to the Fish and Feathers guys. One of the questions on the DLP form is what action you took to discourage the bear(s) from coming back.
Out here on the Penninsula we have probably the largest population density of bears compared to anywhere else in North America with the probable exception of McNeil River. These aren't wimpy little black bears either. Our's are big honkin' coastal browns. However the methods will work for either.
Preferably you will need a short barrel 12ga (18") with an open choke. Load a round of #4 steel shot or #6 lead in the chamber (No Magnums). Top off the magazine with one round of 00 or 000Buck backed up with slugs as the remaining rounds (we use Brennekes, more on that later).
When you get a bear on your property you will need to maneuver around him to make sure he has an exit route away from you. From a range of no closer than 25 yards, to a maximum of 35 yards get into a position behind him. Aim at the base of his tail making sure the head and face is tuned away from you and dump a load of shot in his arse. He should plow a furrow leaving the area. As soon as you shoot you should have the 00Buck in the pipe to break up a potential charge and of course the slugs are to anchor him in the event he charges.

Reason for the the equipment. Short barrels cut down on the velocity a bit and open chokes allow for faster spread. Both #4 steel and #6 lead have the same ballistics. Bears are tough critters and can take getting hit in such a manner as to cause pain from a load of birdshot without causing injury.
Some points to consider. Longer barrels and tighter chokes dictate increasing minimum distances. Stay away from magnum loads. The energies they generate can cause a wound rather than pain. Be aware that most encounters will take place at night or twilight. Any successful shot done in this manner conditions them to fear humans. I swear they understand what the smell of gunpowder means.
In my experiences and the guys I work with, none of the bears hit solidly with a load of birdshot has come back for a return engagement except for one. He happened to be a young misfit that was too low on the food chain for the other bears pawing around in the landfill. He kept returning to town to get an easy meal out of the dumpsters and had completely lost his fear of humans. I ended up having to kill him. I shot him using a 1 1/8 oz Brenneke slug at 40 paces. The slug passed through both shoulders and exited on the far side dropping him instantly. Your results could vary.
Out of the dozens I've dusted with the birdshot, I've yet to have one turn and charge. I am however, prepared for that eventuality.
I love adrenaline!
:D

Lennyjoe
August 20, 2004, 09:24 AM
Had that been me, the only remnants of the bear they would of found was his hide hanging to dry.

The dinner menue for the following day would of been bear roast, mashed potatoes and gravy.:D

Big_R
August 20, 2004, 03:00 PM
Justice prevailed. It took some seeds to wait until the bear was inside. If it had been outside, I wonder if it would have been a good shoot.

I wonder why the article wasn't titled "80 year old Big Indian man shoots bear"?

Ryan

nico
August 20, 2004, 03:04 PM
I wonder why the article wasn't titled "80 year old Big Indian man shoots bear"?
because it'd look even weirder in the headline than in the story to dummies like me. The first time I read it, I was thinking "is it politically correct for them to call the guy a Big Indian?":D

jojosdad
August 20, 2004, 03:45 PM
It may have been that the law was written under the presumption that black bears do not attack humans, period. I've seen reputable claims that this is the case, regarding black bears which have a normal exposure to humans. I've even heard one biologist claim that a black bear typically won't even defend her den or cubs against humans (who'd like to test that theory?).

ROFLMAO

IIRC in the recent past a woman hiking the Appalachian Trail was stalked, killed and eaten by a black bear.

Black bears have been proven to be predators of humans, and like any other predator, must be taught to fear us if they are to continue to exist as a species.

carpettbaggerr
August 20, 2004, 08:35 PM
Robert Grennie said the bear had chased his niece, Candice Backstrom, inside from gardening four times, and had entered her Rolling Brook Road home on several occasions Man, once would be too much for me. She's lucky she wasn't mauled.
But bears aren't dangerous, right?

Stand_Watie
August 20, 2004, 10:55 PM
IIRC in the recent past a woman hiking the Appalachian Trail was stalked, killed and eaten by a black bear.

Black bears have been proven to be predators of humans, and like any other predator, must be taught to fear us if they are to continue to exist as a species.

I vaguely recall reading about that, and I agree 100% that bears need to fear humans. I don't agree (and I don't know that that is what you are saying) that black bears are naturally predators of humans, but those that come to view humans as a food source are becoming predators of humans. I think what is occurring today regarding black bears is exactly synonomous with what has started occurring with cougars and humans in the last 15 years. For 100 years in America there were virtually zero attacks on humans by cougars, and then in the last 15 years there has been a literal explosion of attacks. I think the next 15 years are going to see the same for black bears.

I think the trick is to find a reasonable balance between overhunting and decimation of the populations of both, and overpopulation and subsequent attacks on humans that that entails.

Also occurring in America, possibly on a much larger scale, but due to much smaller size with much less dramatic effect is the urbanization and overpopulation of coyotes.


COYOTE ATTACKS: AN INCREASING SUBURBAN PROBLEM*

(warning, graphic photo of small child mauling included)

Introduction Coyote (Canis latrans) attacks on humans, once thought to be rare, have increased in frequency over the past decade. In expanding suburban areas such as those found in several counties in Southern California, residential developments are often near steep, brushy wildland areas. Coyotes inhabiting such wildlands are drawn into suburban landscaped environments that can support an abundance of rodents and rabbits, and where they can utilize water sources, pet food, household refuse, and even house cats and small dogs as prey.
Our observations indicate that in the absence of harassment by residents, coyotes can lose their fear of people and come to associate humans with this safe, resource-rich environment. This problem is exacerbated by people who intentionally feed coyotes. In such situations, some coyotes have begun to act aggressively toward humans, chasing joggers and bicyclists, confronting people walking their dogs, and stalking small children...

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/awm/docs/coyoteattacks.pdf

jobu07
August 21, 2004, 12:03 AM
Yepper, shotguns are the big game weapon that ya need to use lest you be a farmer with nuisance permits or happen to venture out into the adirondecks for a hunt. Bears drop just as dead from a 12 gauge ad deer do. Of course, rifles are always nice too. I don't generally like to be within shotgun range of the black bears if I can help it...

Stand_Watie
August 21, 2004, 12:15 AM
Bears drop just as dead from a 12 gauge ad deer do.

I'm the size of a small (175 lb) black bear. Punch a 1 inch hole in me and I'd be liable to drop dead too...

jojosdad
August 21, 2004, 05:52 PM
Stand_Watie - I agree with what you said
I think the trick is to find a reasonable balance between overhunting and decimation of the populations of both, and overpopulation and subsequent attacks on humans that that entails.
However, bears are effective, intelligent (able to learn from experience and capable of teaching their young) omnivores. To be an effective omnivore, an animal must be curious and opportunistic. (Like Human animals). I didn't mean to imply that bears will feed exclusivly on humans, just that they can view small, sick or injured humans as another available food source if the opportunity to do so presents itself. If they have learned to avoid humans by being hunted then they're much less likely to do so.

Drjones
August 23, 2004, 01:33 PM
Stand_watie:

Thanks for posting that report.

It is particularly salient to me as I live in kalifornistan.


It is awful what happened to that little girl. Unfortunately, they don't go into detail at all about the circumstances, but I'll bet a lot of money that:

a) Her parent's did not, and still do not, own a gun

b) This situation could have been entirely prevented, or stopped before the girl was so totally mauled, had her parents owned a gun.


Survival of the fittest and all that.....its just a shame that this girl had to suffer for her parent's idiocy.

If I had it my way, her parents would be prosecuted for negligence for NOT owning a gun, if they in fact do not. :fire:

aut2no
August 23, 2004, 08:49 PM
(SAME POST i MADE ON ANOTHER "BEAR" THREAD)


http://massbackwards.blogspot.com/

scroll down to Wed Aug 18

2 Palmer Mass stories - very funny

Check out photo of guy who shot bear - just set back for years all our efforts at revamping Mass gun laws ;^)

Stand_Watie
August 24, 2004, 01:16 AM
DrJones, and it's not at all exclusive to California either. Just the other day they ran an article called King of the Coyotes in the Fort Worth star-telegram about a particular urban coyote population around white rock lake in Dallas (link below).

I honestly think our society may have just been so disneyized that people are incapable of applying critical thinking skills to any situation that they haven't been pre-indoctrinated in. For example they understand that their children should ride securely buckled in a car seat and have a working smoke detector in their room, but it never occurs to them that wild (and most domestic) animals are inherently dangerous given the right situation.

http://timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=1645

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