Army safety practices


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Houndawg
August 20, 2004, 01:46 AM
Can somebody tell me what idiot came up with bore rodding? For those who don't know, whenever entering or exiting a range, somebody is standing there with a steel rod that is carelessly shoved down the bore of the rifle to make sure it's clear. I cringe everytime they do this, and wonder what the poor rifle ever did to deserve such punishment. They never did this when I was in the Marine Corps. The Corps actually taught us to take care of our rifles.

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fgr39
August 20, 2004, 05:45 AM
I don't know who came up with it but I feel the same way. It burns me up when I see some retard grind a rod around the crown trying to shove it down the barrel. of course these are the same idiots that refuse to put any clp on their rifle when qualifing cause it will be more to have to clean and then b!tch about their rifle jamming and how much of a peice of junk it is. Just as a note for all the AR bashers out there, in 11 years in the Army I can't recall a single malfuction in any of my issued M-16s.

Sergeant Sabre
August 20, 2004, 01:23 PM
When I was in the Marines ('99-'04) you broke your rifle down and they looked down to bore to make sure it was clear and unobstructed. When leaving after shooting, everybody formed up at the range exit with all magazine pouches open and magazine followers visible at the top of every empty magazine, and bolt open so a coach can inspect the chamber for a round. When the coach came around to each Marine, you were required to make a legal declaration: "I have no brass, trash, or live rounds". I dunno what brass or trash has to do with anything, but not having live rounds was important.

I can see the Army doing what you said, though. They don't care about accuracy and most of those dog-faced soldiers don't really know how to use that rifle anyway :neener: :D

[flame suit on] :D

Byron
August 20, 2004, 01:36 PM
The Army does care about accuracy. I was in basic, March 1968. Leaving the rifle range, we lined up in two columns with the muzzles pointing out,the bolt open, magazine out and the weapon on safety. We had to state no brass or ammo. The rifle was the M-14. The trainee in front of me had the bolt closed,safety off and finger on the trigger with the muzzle pointed at the Sgt.The Drill Sgt ordered the bolt open. A live round came out. I did not see the trainee again.
The same procedure was followed in Infantry AIT. I do not recall the rod scaping the inside of the barrels. It is a safety procedure used for trainess to prevent accidents. These rifles shot well. Byron

rbernie
August 20, 2004, 01:42 PM
US Army, circa 1983-1989 - we lined up with muzzles pointed up/downrange, actions opened, and with the ejection port facing the Rangemaster/Instructor. "No brass, no ammo" was the standard declaration, followed by a visible check of the action by the Rangemaster/Instructor.

At no point did anybody stuck anything down the bore of the weapon to ensure that it was cleared.

Turk
August 20, 2004, 09:20 PM
The reason for the cleaning rod down the bore was to be sure there wasn't a round chambered or obstruction in the bore. Can't you just see what the news would be "Basic Trainee shoots fellow trainee by accident?" It's all a safety thing.

Sergeant Sabre, your post.

//////// can see the Army doing what you said, though. They don't care about accuracy and most of those dog-faced soldiers don't really know how to use that rifle anyway ///////

You're not quite right. In Vietnam we didn't worry about aimed shots due to the fact we were using blanks. Now you know why Army grunts M-16's worked and jar heads M-16 didn't. Blanks put less wear on the receiver and barrel


:D

Have a good day and remember to pray for our troops.

Turk;)

Destructo6
August 21, 2004, 05:17 PM
The Corps actually taught us to take care of our rifles.
Well, my experience on a Marine Corps range and subsequent cleanup was a bit different. We walked up with actions locked to the rear. An instructor sprayed 3-4 shots of CLP into the open action with a spray bottle. With CLP dripping out of the magwell, we took our positions, waited for the command, then commenced fired. After firing, we lined up, were checked for live ammo/brass, then walked off the line.

This is where the real fun began. We cleaned those M16s so much and with such poor equipment that they probably would have been better off not being cleaned at all. Sectional cleaning rods from the muzzle end, screwed up bore brushes, bent patch holders, filthy CLP (6 people per ammo can filled with CLP), you name it. In order to turn them in, an instructor had to be able to rub a single Q-tip on several areas (flash hider, bolt, bowells of the lower, etc) without that Q-tip turning more than grey.

I was most unimpressed.

VG
August 21, 2004, 09:35 PM
I can see the Army doing what you said, though. They don't care about accuracy and most of those dog-faced soldiers don't really know how to use that rifle anyway Disdaining the Army is Marine Corps doctrine. As independent thought or action is not allowed by this doctrine, you are absolved.

Gunsnrovers
August 21, 2004, 10:03 PM
Bore rodding goes way back to the land of muskets and it's a fast way to check for obstructions and ammunition when you've got a lot of folks to clear in a short period of time.

If you don't hear that nice metalic "ting", somethings done gone wrong.

Houndawg
August 22, 2004, 02:16 AM
Gunsnrovers,

I realize why it's done, but I still cringe.



Destructo,

When I was in boot camp at San Diego in 87, we all had our own buttstock cleaning kits with our own little bottles of CLP. We were taught the correct methods and the correct amounts to put on the different parts. Our a2's were brand new and they were expected to look that way when we turned them in. No DI or PMI would have stood there with a bottle of CLP to drench our rifles with.

Redlg155
August 22, 2004, 04:16 AM
I went into the Army in 1987 as a 13B (Field Artillery). Standard procedure was to line up and have one of the range officers run a rod down your barrel until it tapped the bolt face and the bolt released. Back then we were still using crappy old M16A1s.

Heck, it wasn't until about a year before we left for Iraq in the early 90s that we were issued M16A2s. And we were a heavy mech rapid deployment unit. Go figure that one out. Commanders and 1st Sgts still carried the 1911 and maintainance still had the ol M3 grease gun .45s.

Good Shooting
Red

Langenator
August 22, 2004, 10:44 AM
the rods are brass, not steel. At least the ones we use are. Using cleaning rods is a no-no.

redneck
August 22, 2004, 12:20 PM
Am I the only one who thinks regardless of wear and tear, its a pretty moronic idea to shove anything down the bore of a gun you think might be loaded? Especially when its in the hands of someone that was too stupid to clear it by themself :confused:

goon
August 22, 2004, 01:09 PM
It was my experience that the Army was incredibly lax on teaching safe gun handling. We never had even one lesson. I still shiver when I think of idiots running around in our barracks pointing their rifles at eachother like they were toys.
I said something to them about it.
The reply?
"It doesn't have any ammo in it."

:eek:

Redhat
August 22, 2004, 05:44 PM
Excuse me gents, but doen't the M16A2 operator's manual say to clean the weapon by inserting the rod into the muzzle? And how does one clean the M1 or M14 from the rear (breech)?

Just curious

Thanks

SOT_II
August 22, 2004, 07:29 PM
Much a do about nothing:

Most are No brass no ammo...if they do stick a rod down it's brass and the barrels are chrome lined...the barrels will wear out from shooting and normal cleaning WELL before a rond down the barrel once a range session makes any noticeble difference.

Houndawg
August 23, 2004, 01:39 AM
SOT_II,

They don't use brass rods on our rifles, they use steel rods. And wallowing the rod around the crown trying to get it into the bore doesn't help one bit. It's just an all around stupid practice and the safety check could be accomplished other ways.

Redhat
August 23, 2004, 02:37 AM
WE check the bore without using a rod. The shooters lock it to the rear, then the line instructors come along and open the receivers, remove the bolt carrier to check the bore, then close it and make it rack safe. After that it's off to the cleaning area.

Destructo6
August 23, 2004, 03:53 AM
When I was in boot camp at San Diego in 87,
My experience in this case was Field Medical Service School (run and instructed by USMC) in 1994, at Camp Pendleton. I was shocked and disgusted.

Destructo6
August 23, 2004, 03:53 AM
Dbl tap due to sluggish server.

VG
August 23, 2004, 08:35 AM
SOT_II,

They don't use brass rods on our rifles, they use steel rods. And wallowing the rod around the crown trying to get it into the bore doesn't help one bit. It's just an all around stupid practice and the safety check could be accomplished other ways.


__________________
Rob

Proud TFL Ulumnus
NRA Life Member

Who is they?

Most are No brass no ammo...if they do stick a rod down it's brass and the barrels are chrome lined...the barrels will wear out from shooting and normal cleaning WELL before a round down the barrel once a range session makes any noticeble difference. I went through Infantry OSUT in 1981 and was a Corporal in the same unit for six months before going to OCS. And one of the Senior NCO's was a former member of the Army Marksmanship Unit, also at Fort Benning as is the Sniper School. He put a clip of .45 through the face of a silhoutte target at 50 meters, by way of demonstration, and he was years past his competition days. As the AMU builds their own weapons, they also know a thing or two about maintenance.

If and when a bore was rodded, it was done so with an unsectioned brass rod that had a circle on the end for a handle so it could be pulled back out. It was done by the Safety NCO, who was personally responsible for insuring that every weapon was clear. I never saw it done in any regular unit - only BRM training.

By contrast, my brother was a Marine Corps Infantry Company Commander. I'm thus somewhat more familiar with the fundamentals of marksmanship taught by these services than most. BTW, guess who trained his son to shoot? Most of us that have compared the training in detail believe that elements of both should be incorporated, but both services are too hide-bound to change. There are plenty of active duty Marines who wish they had M4 Carbines now that they are mostly vehicle borne, as one example.

There is simply no sense arguing with a closed mind. The Marines seem to teach disdain for the Army - it helps define them, or used to. And Marines Corps recruiting appeals to a particular mindset that reiforces this. As one book says, "Marine Corps training may not make better infantrymen, but they make better Marines." By contrast, I don't remember the Marine Corps even being mentioned in my Army training.

Nowadays, the active duty forces are so short-handed that everybody goes everywhere. Everything is "Joint" and a Navy Commander told me he's had more Army than Marine Corps officers on his bridge in the last year, as one example of how much things have changed.

If somebody is fighting for us, as long as it says U.S. I don't really care what the rest of the tag says, and good luck to them all. None of them care what old civilian veterans say in internet forums, nor should.

Houndawg
August 23, 2004, 12:47 PM
"They" refers to our range safety NCOs.

VG
August 23, 2004, 01:56 PM
What range safety NCO's? At an Army base? Which one? Are you in the Army, or NG, or? Or were you just an observer?
http://images.pravda.ru/images/newsline/4a5.gif

Houndawg
August 23, 2004, 02:47 PM
IL ARNG. I've had it done at multiple ranges.

SOT_II
August 23, 2004, 03:47 PM
You must have been in a different Army than I, the range NCO's used a brass cleaning rod at Ft. Benning same stipid one from the cleaning kit..and even still a steel rod in a chrome lined barrel in a weekend warriors gun or even active duty gun once each pass at range, ain't gonna do much in the life cycle of the gun or barrel and it's "potential" accuracy.

Much a do about nothing...

VG
August 24, 2004, 09:03 PM
One of the best books about WWII weapons was written by an IL state High Power champion and National Guard officer, LTC John George. He fought on Quadalcanal and later with Merrill's Marauders. "Shots Fired in Anger." Hard to find, but terrific book with sections on both U.S. and Japanese weapons.

Vern Humphrey
August 24, 2004, 09:38 PM
This talk about damaging the crown of an M16 by running a cleaning rod down the bore leads me to a question -- where IS the crown on the M16?:D

13A
August 25, 2004, 12:02 AM
I think much more wear occurs with the cleaning required before the rifle goes back in the rack. Soldiers are not gentle with their equipment.

strambo
August 25, 2004, 03:10 AM
Whether you agree with the practice or not Houndawg, the rod is supposed to be one piece brass and they are picked up from range control with the other "range gear" to run the range. This shows the Army took bore damage into account by creating brass rods for the purpose.

The problem is there aren't enough of the correct brass rods (or any, cause they got lost) so the cleaning rods get used. I cringed as well at steel rods going down my bore from the "wrong" end,...still shot expert more often than not though, so "combat accuracy" must have been maintained.

Yes, looking down the bores from the back side with the bolts removed is better and done in certain units. The bigger problem, as mentioned, is how soldiers clean the rifles...not pretty.

:eek:

Houndawg
August 25, 2004, 03:33 AM
I've never seen a brass rod, but my armory keeps a steel rod that isn't a cleaning rod. It's a steel rod with a loop on the end like the grass rod described earlier.

Oh well, I guess I'm the only one disgusted at this practice.

Redhat
August 25, 2004, 01:58 PM
Geez Houndawg,

Why don't you offer them some gun savy advice??? Straighten them boys out.

Still waiting for an answer to my question about how the Operator's manual says to clean the M16A2 from the muzzle end?

Houndawg
August 25, 2004, 02:00 PM
I've made comments before, but they just shrug and move on to the next guy.

VG
August 31, 2004, 01:32 PM
It's no wonder that some units continue to have CYA safety policies:

August 31, 2004

Judge rules against suit by father of Marine killed in training

Associated Press


SALT LAKE CITY — The government cannot be held liable for the death of a Marine killed during a training exercise, a federal judge ruled in rejecting a request by the young man’s father that he ignore a U.S. Supreme Court ruling.

Pfc. Jeremy Ross Purcell, 19, was killed during an August 2002 training exercise at Camp Pendleton, Calif. He was shot in the chest four times with live ammunition, rather than the blanks the Marines were instructed to use.

His father, Jon Purcell of Provo, sued the federal government for negligence.

/snipped/

Purcell has been proceeding in the lawsuit on his own, without an attorney.

His lawsuit alleged his son’s death was the result of failure by the Marine Corps to formulate and enforce policies for the proper use, storage and accountability of ammunition used in training activities.

Such policies, rather than relying on individual Marines to check their ammunition, would have prevented the accident, Purcell contended.

The Marine who fired the fatal shots was not named in Purcell’s suit. He pleaded guilty to negligent homicide as part of a plea agreement and was sentenced in August 2003 to one year in a military jail.
Complete article at http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-329391.php

UnknownSailor
August 31, 2004, 03:07 PM
I think the problems the Military is having is a reflection of the society they draw their personnell from. City kids without any experience with firearms at all by far outnumber the country folks who hunt for their dinner. In times past a much larger percentage of the population who enlisted had experience with firearms at home beforehand, and as such, were much more familiar with safe handling practices.

Now, we get the urban and city youth who have been fed nothing but what the movies have shown them, and never laid eyes on the real thing until handed one at boot camp.

IMO, this means the military has to change their training practices. Expand their basic firearm instruction, and allow their personnell more hands on time.

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