Editorial calling for extensive AWB in Indianapolis


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Night Guy
August 20, 2004, 07:08 AM
Not surprisingly there are already emotional cries for an extensive assault weapons ban in Indianapolis as a result of the unfortunate death of an IPD officer. Their logic is of course filled with holes, but you have to give them credit for crying out so quickly. It certainly doesn't help that we have such a vocal idiot selling guns, and he's supposed to be on our side. :rolleyes:

*****************************************************

http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/171702-2345-104.html

Time to outlaw assault-style guns


August 20, 2004


Our position is: State, local and federal governments should act to keep assault-style weapons off the streets.

Although the 1994 crime bill banned most of the assault rifles that were in circulation at the time, a loophole in the law has led to the proliferation of similar types of weapons that are proving just as deadly.

Law enforcement officers are at a dangerous disadvantage when they must take on gunmen armed with weapons similar to the semi-automatic SKS rifle used to kill Indianapolis Police Officer Timothy Laird on Wednesday.

The SKS is patterned after the AK-47. Most police officers carry a .40-caliber Glock handgun, which is what Laird had. It's no match for the SKS. Although Laird was fatally struck above his chest protector, the SKS fires a 7.62-caliber bullet that is powerful enough to pass through body armor.

The 1994 federal crime bill prohibited the importation and sale of assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition. But gun manufacturers have circumvented the law by making a few design changes and producing different models of weapons that remain just as deadly.

"What do you do with these guns other than kill a cop?" asked gun shop owner Don Davis. "You certainly don't use them to go hunting."

Police have little defense against bullets designed to penetrate their protective vests. Besides Laird, four other IPD officers were wounded Wednesday by a gunman who had a history of mental problems. In June, an assailant armed with an SKS killed three Birmingham, Ala., officers.

Between 1998 and 2001, 41 officers nationwide, including three in Indiana, were slain with the type of weapon that felled Laird. Unless lawmakers take a harder line on assault-style weapons, there will be more casualties.

Indianapolis should join other cities like Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland and New York City in banning such weapons. The Indiana legislature should also tighten restrictions. And Congress must close loopholes in the 1994 law.

The lives of police officers such as Timothy Laird are at stake.

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R32
August 20, 2004, 07:21 AM
Its a sad time we live in when EVERY tragedy like this is exploited for the use of passing more anti-gun legislation.
All the more reason to keep a very close eye on things until the ban sunsets... and to always remain vigil afterwards.

Norton
August 20, 2004, 07:23 AM
Uh, wasn't the SKS the predecessor of the AK?

Funny how a year ago no one in the general public kew what an SKS was. The media has decided that this is going to be the next rifle demonized.

Night Guy
August 20, 2004, 07:54 AM
I was trying to compose a response to this nonsense. The only problem I have is that I want to back every statement I make with citations to a verifiable source. I will not submit a response based on emotion. This is the first time I've felt motivated to respond and I'm hitting a brick wall.:banghead:

Hopefully someone with more knowledge or at least easier to find sources will respond in my place. I don't have the time to dig up everything myself, nor could I likely keep my response short, sweet and to the point like so many of you can.

Please tear them a new one for me...politely of course.:D

mattx109
August 20, 2004, 08:00 AM
"What do you do with these guns other than kill a cop?" asked gun shop owner Don Davis. "You certainly don't use them to go hunting."

:scrutiny:

When I was a kid, my best friend got an SKS as a gift for completing the hunter safety course. He carried it through his first season with his dad. He still has it and uses it as a plinker.

Don needs to be quiet.

Beren
August 20, 2004, 08:18 AM
I've sent a letter about this article to "SKS Owners for Kerry." It's sad that they don't realize their SKS is next on the hit list.

Dean Speir
August 20, 2004, 09:56 AM
 

You missed yesterday's drivel, the first shot of the ol' media one-two punch:

Demand drives sale of assault-style weapons (http://www.indystar.com/articles/5/171566-5945-P.html)

Excerpt: Don Davis has been telling TV audiences for years how he loves to sell guns -- but even he thinks the semiautomatic rifle used to kill an Indianapolis officer Wednesday and wound four others should be outlawed.

"They're terrible," said Davis, owner of Don's Guns, 3807 Lafayette Road.

And, he added, "I sell them like crazy."

In 1993, Davis said he would stop selling the weapons, which have military features allowing rapid, accurate firing. He burned 44 AK-47s in a pit to make his point.

Four years later, he began selling them again. He said politicians bowed to pressure from groups like the National Rifle Association to keep the weapons legal.

He said there was just too much demand for the AK-47, which sells for about $300 and the cheaper $150 knockoff, the SKS -- both of which are imported.

"They're all legal, and we sell them every day to 18-year-olds," Davis said. "Isn't that terrible?" I asked a friendly gunwriter colleague who isn't far from Indianapolis, who this jerk Davis is. His response:It was my great misfortune to have to sit next to this guy on a flight when the SHOT Show was in Houston. He is a real scum bag. Rumor has it he used to be a body guard for Jimmy Hoffa, obviously he wasn't very proficient at his craft!?! He has a small chain of gunstores in Indy where they sell mostly low-end junk and he is always raising hell over the big gunshows out at the Fairgrounds or the small ones at Stout Field. He is usually seen on late night ads touting "I don't want to make money, I JUST LOVE TO SELL GUNS." Yeah, right.

He is a true p.o.s.
Another member of the crew, currently residing in Bloomington, added:This guy allows gang-bangers (yes, they even shoot sideways) in his indoor range to commit safety infractions like waving their muzzle everywhere, and he does nothing because, actually, HE JUST WANTS TO MAKE MONEY. The Houston SHOT was '94 as I recollect, so this bastid has been around for awhile.

The operative question is, or should be, who would patronize an SOB like this? How does he stay in business?

 

glocksman
August 20, 2004, 10:45 AM
I wrote a letter to the editor about it:

To the editor of the Star.

In reply to your editorial of August 20, 'Time to outlaw assault-style guns', I'd like to offer the following observations.

First, you claimed that the SKS rifle is a 'knock off' of the AK-47 assault rifle. This is false. The SKS was developed
in 1945 and has a fixed magazine with a 10 round capacity and a conventional shoulder stock and fires one shot with each pull of the trigger. The AK-47 was developed in 1947 and has a pistol grip stock and a 30 round detachable magazine. The SKS is in no way under any conceivable definition an 'Assault Weapon' as it doesn't even have a detachable magazine. The only thing the AK and the SKS have in common is the ammunition. Both rifles shoot the same 7.62x39 cartridge.

Second, the editorial mentioned that 'the SKS fires a 7.62-caliber bullet that is powerful enough to pass through body armor'.
This is true enough, but you fail to mention that almost all centerfire rifle cartridges will do the same thing. Banning rifles that can penetrate body armor would result in banning Grandpa's old Winchester .30-30 lever action or Dad's Remington 700 bolt action. Police body armor is designed to stop pistol bullets, not rifle bullets. In fact, the SKS's cartridge is less powerful than the .30-30 chambered in the Winchester 1894 lever action cowboy rifle. A ban on rifles that can penetrate police body armor would effectively ban 98% of all non .22 rimfire rifles in existance.

Third, Don Davis of 'Don's Guns' needs to get out of his shop and observe hunters in our neighboring states who do use arms such as the SKS for hunting. I know several hunters in Kentucky who use an SKS, as its medium power level cartridge and compact design make it an ideal inexpensive brush hunting weapon for game such as deer. A civilian legal semiauto only AK clone would make a similarly good brush gun for deer due to its size and ease of use.

Finally, rifle ammunition isn't 'designed' to penetrate body armor, it's designed to perform on game. The problem is that police armor is designed to protect against pistol ammunition and rifle ammo is much more powerful than pistol ammo. To sum it up, laws such as the ones you propose would do little to make it safer for the police, but would make criminals out of anyone who owns a 100 year old Winchester lever action cowboy rifle.

Henry Bowman
August 20, 2004, 11:02 AM
It does amaze me how unsupportive of the 2A many gun shop owners can be. Most in my area are not anti, but do not make ANY effort to stay informed about to pro-gun cause or any issues that do not directly affect them. For example, they only passively supported the Ohio CCW movement - until it passed and they finally realized that they could make a bunck of money selling more handguns and holsters. I don't think you find many people like our Tamara on this board or others. For so long (in Ohio) there was no CCW other than cops and the long guns were view by most as being for "sport" only (hunting, clays, and target) that they catered to that mentality - i.e., cops and sporters.

Maybe I just haven't found the right gun shop.

mainmech48
August 20, 2004, 03:13 PM
Glocksman: Thanks for the effort in taking the time to write the letter to "The Indianapolis Star" and attempting to correct their several misstatements of fact in the Op/Ed piece.

Sad to say, but I'd be very surprised if they print it. Rational thought as we know it isn't a part of their equation, nor their agenda.

Don Davis, Sleezeball Extraordinaire and self-crowned King of the Bottomfeeders, is their go-to boy whenever they're looking for a good negative spin on a "gun-related" story. They know that he'll provide the immflamatory quote(s) they want while providing them with "plausible deniability" from bias charges.

He is not, nor has he ever been "on our side" despite what his business interests might seem to imply.

He is more-than-willing to play the Judas Goat so long as it serves his purpose. That purpose has always been the aggrandizement and personal enrichment of Don Davis, period.

As far as he's concerned, anything that keeps his name out there and could possibly keep the stream of suckers willing to pay top-dollar prices for his merchandise flowing into his business.

I believe that he has made a concious, cynical and self-serving choice to position his business to cater to the margins of the market: the marginally informed, the marginally qualified, and the marginally scrupulous. By broadcasting his own willingness to set aside whatever his publicly stated "ethical" stance might be in the interest of profit he projects an image that he is willing to sell them anything that they can pay for so long as the letter of the law isn't completely erased. In essence, "If you've got the cash (or the credit), and will tell us what the law says we need to hear, we'll sell it to you."

I don't know about you, but it really burns my beans that the "Star" and the rest of the local media constantly present this contemptible shmuck as being a "rational and responsible" firearms dealer simply because he can be counted upon to echo their idealogical line and deflect the flack from them.

Unfortunately, as long as it's their ball, their bat, and their ballpark I'm afraid that theres not much of any substance that we can do to change that.

(Heavy sigh) Rant over.

TimRB
August 20, 2004, 04:14 PM
I don't see why anyone would object to local or state level assault weapons bans. We have had one here in California for years, and as a result violent crime is virtually unheard of.

Tim

mainmech48
August 20, 2004, 04:39 PM
If you think that violent crime is "virtually unheard of " in California, perhaps you should look into getting a hearing aid.

Or take a little stroll through any of the several violent crime-free urban areas of your Earthly Paradise some evening. A public park in SC or East L.A., let's say.

Dean Speir
August 20, 2004, 05:00 PM
 

Someone… no names, please!… and Irony need an introduction.

Mainmech48, meet Irony… Irony, Mainmech48.

There, everybody on the same playing field now?

 

boofus
August 20, 2004, 05:51 PM
Hehe, don't you mean sarcasm?

GunnySkox
August 20, 2004, 06:10 PM
Verbal Irony == Sarcasm
Verbal Irony - saying something you don't mean to make a point.
Sarcasm - saying something you don't mean (usually in a flippant tone) to make a point.

~Slam_Fire

Dean Speir
August 20, 2004, 06:11 PM
  boofus giggles:Hehe, don't you mean sarcasm? It's a wise and tactical poster who opens his dictionary before challenging a writer's diction.

sar·casm: A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.

A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
i·ro·ny: The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous. Now, Boofus, which do you think TimRB intended?

And which one do you think I'm using?

 

Zundfolge
August 20, 2004, 06:13 PM
The SKS is patterned after the AK-47

Isn't it like saying the Model T is patterned after the new Ford Expedition? :p



...the SKS fires a 7.62-caliber bullet that is powerful enough to pass through body armor.

Okay kids ... pay attention ... this is the next tactic the antis are going to use.

The future of attacks on gun rights are going to take the "its evil because it will pass through body armer" tact. Gotta protect their JBTs ya know.

High capacity and "scary/military looking" aren't getting the attention of Joe Sixpack ... now they will try to convince the sheeple that "Nobody needs a gun capable of piercing body armor ... deer, pheasant, rabbit, etc don't wear body armor!"

Gixerman1000
August 20, 2004, 06:36 PM
I guess soon these will be called assault rifles too,

http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/7400wd.jpg

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/031218m.jpg

and when people hear that they are twice as powerful as the "evil SKS" they will be easy to ban.


And look guys!!!! There is even an evil “Sniper” version http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/031001m.jpg

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Standing Wolf
August 20, 2004, 09:42 PM
"You certainly don't use them to go hunting."

The Second Amendment isn't about hunting. Never was. Never will be.

EricOKC
August 20, 2004, 09:53 PM
I don't see why anyone would object to local or state level assault weapons bans. We have had one here in California for years, and as a result violent crime is virtually unheard of.

Are we talking about the same California? That big piece of America way out in left field, er i mean, way out on the west coast? Here on planet Earth right?

boofus
August 20, 2004, 10:12 PM
Bleah, I was thinking of the literary device definition of irony where something unexpected but not completely opposite happens.

In any case if irony and sarcasm are synonyms we were both right. :)

Jim K
August 20, 2004, 11:24 PM
So that guy likes to sell guns to cop killers. I bet right now the cops and ATF are working a scam to set him up and send him off with the crooks he peddles guns to. His big anti-gun mouth won't help a bit in club fed. It is to be hoped.

Jim

Gillster
August 20, 2004, 11:57 PM
"high-capacity ammunition"
Where do I get some of this?

reagansquad
August 21, 2004, 12:12 AM
Nooooo... Nobody hunts with an SKS... preaching to the choir

Justin
August 21, 2004, 12:20 AM
So that guy likes to sell guns to cop killers. I bet right now the cops and ATF are working a scam to set him up and send him off with the crooks he peddles guns to. His big anti-gun mouth won't help a bit in club fed. It is to be hoped. We can only hope so. I only ever went into one of the Don's Guns shops. It was my first and last visit. The guy is a Grade-A sleazeball. Only shop I've ever seen that actually had prices higher than MSRP.

ARperson
August 21, 2004, 12:58 PM
The Indianapolis Star is a piece of ????. It's even worse since being bought by Gannet.

A couple of years ago, I was reading a story involving a kid who took a gun to school. The caliber was a .25mm. Yep, that's right. One quarter of a whopping millimeter.

It gets better. The next day, same story, different article, the caliber was reported as a 25 mm.

Geez. The kid goes from carrying a pin-prick to a bleepin' hand cannon.

mainmech48
August 21, 2004, 02:20 PM
Dean, boofus, et al: Consider me duly chastised.

In mitigation, I would offer that if someone else - no names, please! - had just finished reading several pages of semi-hysterical and patently specious drivel designed to incite the fatal goring of one of his personal oxen he might well have been distracted enough to overlook a bit of irony himself.

After reading the even-more-outrageous fabrications published in today's edition of the "Star", I need to go decompress. I believe I'll go out to the range with the SKS from my "extensive arsenal" and burn up some of my "vast horde" of "high-powered military ammo" while I still can.

Dean Speir
August 21, 2004, 04:21 PM
 

Not to worry, Main mech48… now you've "got" it.

No such "pass" should be afforded EricOKC or Jim Keenan, however. If'n you're gonna post, you should be able to at least read.

 

Johnson
August 21, 2004, 04:52 PM
someone should explain to the writer that the SKS was not one of the rifles covered in the ban.

GLOCKT
August 21, 2004, 06:30 PM
In yesterdays Star paper they showed a SKS and printed all the evil criteria on the cycle rate and bullet caliber.
The TV news showed a helicopter view of the crime scene.It clearly showed a AK variant on the ground redish brown pistol grip,detachable 30 round magazine.Since when does a AK turn into a SKS?
Then the main lead story on channel 6 news, the lead anchor states the weapon was a fully automatic SKS.O.K time to change the channel.
You'd think the media types would want the truth in reporting in understanding what they are actually talking about.Instead they aim for sensationalism in reporting a story filled with constent misleading info.
Officer Koe missed all his shots from his M4 and took down the shooter while swinging his rifle in a baseball bat fashion, eventually stopping the shooter with his issued pistol.Now where is his accountability for those flying .223 rounds?

ZeroX
August 21, 2004, 06:59 PM
Here's Don's website for the non-IN folks:

http://www.donsguns.com/

Attractive man, eh?

And I don't know about what most ranges charge but 13 bucks for a half hour of shooting seems a bit much.

nico
August 21, 2004, 07:17 PM
"It's better to own a gun and not need it
than to need a gun and not own it."

- Don Davis


so that's who coined that phrase. :D I almost fell out of my chair when I saw it. What a sleazeball

R.H. Lee
August 21, 2004, 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------
The SKS is patterned after the AK-47
-----------------------------------------------

Isn't it like saying the Model T is patterned after the new Ford Expedition?


Zunde-Don't be talkin' smack 'bout my SKS..............:p

Johnson
August 21, 2004, 07:29 PM
on the cycle rate and bullet caliber.

I wonder what they said, 800 rounds per minute? Where do you get those 800 round magazines, anybody know?

Dean Speir
August 21, 2004, 10:38 PM
 

If I was likely to see a guy that looks like Don Davis yelling on late night TV all the time, I probably wouldn't turn the set on after 2200 hours!

And speaking of looking like Davis, he reminds me of another notorious ol' gun-banner, Tom Lantos (http://www.house.gov/lantos/about.html), D. CA.

 

GLOCKT
August 22, 2004, 04:06 AM
As wacky as this has all become, Don Davis did bring 1 of the first indoor shooting ranges to Indy.He's made his money here in Indy,this could be his bow out of the Indy eye.
Those of us with any character know what kind of buisness this man does.
It's a shame those of the unknowing, tend to believe, what this type of person has to say.
It's also a shame how blinded this citys' media is from the newspaper to tv reporting.Once again it makes us all look like hooligans.
Get the facts straight then report them is all I'm askin'.

Daedalus
August 22, 2004, 11:23 AM
Well if he was not allowed to stock SKS rifles he would be able to fit a couple more Gold plated TEC-9s and maybe another Nickel plated MAC-11 on his wall.

http://www.donsguns.com/Display/images/disp058b.jpg

Jspy
August 22, 2004, 11:43 AM
Most people educated in firearms around here will tell you that Don Davis is thought of as a joke in the business. Most of business is from the first time, I just need some kind of weapon, buyer who is as clueless as him. IIRC his name and business was also listed as one of the top producers of firearms listed as being used in crimes in this region of the US. Instances of straw purchases, etc. Of course he is the "go to guy" for local media because he always tells them what they want to hear, and that he isn't doing anything wrong, technically, because he is just doing business as the law allows. What a POS. He is right about one thing tho, its all about the money!

Also in a related issue, Congress- woman Julia Carson has suddenly appeared in all of her drunken glory, telling the media and such what a shame to have all of these assault weapons on the streets, and urging President Bush to extend the AWB. It shames me that people in this area would even vote someone with her character into public office. Gun issues aside, this woman is a joke as a representitive of the people who voted for her. Hell, she makes even Ted Kennedy look good.

mainmech48
August 22, 2004, 01:34 PM
Jspy: Think "Adam Clayton Powell" and it'll all become clear to you about the Julia Carson thing.

fallingblock
August 22, 2004, 10:40 PM
After being subjected to the late-night ads, I visited Don's shop.:scrutiny:

I never went back.

Ugh!

The man does more damage to our cause than the 'antis' do.:fire:

glocksman
August 23, 2004, 11:45 AM
Well, the Star printed my letter but edited it quite a bit.

Original:
To the editor of the Star.

In reply to your editorial of August 20, 'Time to outlaw assault-style guns', I'd like to offer the following observations.

First, you claimed that the SKS rifle is a 'knock off' of the AK-47 assault rifle. This is false. The SKS was developed
in 1945 and has a fixed magazine with a 10 round capacity and a conventional shoulder stock and fires one shot with each pull of the trigger. The AK-47 was developed in 1947 and has a pistol grip stock and a 30 round detachable magazine. The SKS is in no way under any conceivable definition an 'Assault Weapon' as it doesn't even have a detachable magazine. The only thing the AK and the SKS have in common is the ammunition. Both rifles shoot the same 7.62x39 cartridge.

Second, the editorial mentioned that 'the SKS fires a 7.62-caliber bullet that is powerful enough to pass through body armor'.
This is true enough, but you fail to mention that almost all centerfire rifle cartridges will do the same thing. Banning rifles that can penetrate body armor would result in banning Grandpa's old Winchester .30-30 lever action or Dad's Remington 700 bolt action. Police body armor is designed to stop pistol bullets, not rifle bullets. In fact, the SKS's cartridge is less powerful than the .30-30 chambered in the Winchester 1894 lever action cowboy rifle. A ban on rifles that can penetrate police body armor would effectively ban 98% of all non .22 rimfire rifles in existance.

Third, Don Davis of 'Don's Guns' needs to get out of his shop and observe hunters in our neighboring states who do use arms such as the SKS for hunting. I know several hunters in Kentucky who use an SKS, as its medium power level cartridge and compact design make it an ideal inexpensive brush hunting weapon for game such as deer. A civilian legal semiauto only AK clone would make a similarly good brush gun for deer due to its size and ease of use.

Finally, rifle ammunition isn't 'designed' to penetrate body armor, it's designed to perform on game. The problem is that police armor is designed to protect against pistol ammunition and rifle ammo is much more powerful than pistol ammo. To sum it up, laws such as the ones you propose would do little to make it safer for the police, but would make criminals out of anyone who owns a 100 year old Winchester lever action cowboy rifle.

As printed in the Star
In reply to the Aug. 20 editorial, "Time to outlaw assault-style guns," I'd like to offer the following observations.

First, you claimed that the SKS rifle is a knockoff of the AK-47 assault rifle. This is false. The SKS was developed in 1945 and has a fixed magazine with a 10-round capacity and a conventional shoulder stock and fires one shot with each pull of the trigger. The AK-47 was developed in 1947 and has a pistol grip stock and a 30-round detachable magazine. The only thing the AK and the SKS have in common is the ammunition.

Second, the editorial mentioned that the SKS fires a 7.62-caliber bullet that is powerful enough to pass through body armor.

This is true enough, but almost all centerfire rifle cartridges will do the same thing.

Third, Don Davis of Don's Guns needs to get out of his shop and observe hunters in our neighboring states who do use arms such as the SKS for hunting.


Some hatchet job, eh? :barf:

notbubba
August 23, 2004, 12:56 PM
Why isn’t anyone in the area setting up a boycott of this :cuss: guy?

mainmech48
August 23, 2004, 02:06 PM
Having read your posted letter prior to your sending it to the 'Star' I knew immediately that it had been changed significantly by the Op/Ed editor(s).

Were one to ask 'why?', I'll bet that their answer would refer you to the policy statement where they reserve the right to edit for 'space considerations'.

IMCO*, I find it only too predictable that the things removed to 'conserve space' consisted entirely of substantive points which directly addressed where and how their 'factual' data and reportorial inferences were in error.

The quite deliberate result is to present to those unfamiliar with the original text as submitted a rebuttal which seemingly accepts their premise and has been reduced to near-pedantry. In essence, 'Yes, but...' with all of the substance of the contradiction removed.

As a matter of curiousity, I'd be interested to know what rationalization the editor would present to explain his choices. Betcha it's a masterpiece of ethical sophistry.

*: In My Cynical Opinion

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