30-30 vrs Kevlar


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yorick
August 20, 2004, 01:52 PM
Sad story - but shows what even the old 'assault' 30-30 deer rifle can do against body armor.


http://www.local10.com/news/3665577/detail.html

excerpt:

"...two BSO deputies who were part of a 12-person task force attempted to serve a search warrant at 1950 N.E. 57th Street. When the deputies entered the house and turned a corner, Kenneth Wilk, 42, shot them with a high-powered, 3030 hunting rifle. Other officers returned fire at Wilk, but he was not injured, Jenne said. ..."

and:

"...they believe the bullet passed through Fatta's body and then hit Sgt. Angelo Cedeno, 36, in the hand and shoulder..."

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FedDC
August 20, 2004, 02:02 PM
And people still wonder why the cops ask for M-4s and do no knock warrants. This was Low Threat and the officers were still killed while awaiting the suspect to come to the door. The waiting outside while the suspect gets his gun will get you killed. Perhaps if they had just taken the door down first instead of knocking, the scumbag child molestor would be the one in the ground.

yorick
August 20, 2004, 02:04 PM
I believe the story clearly stated that they had already entered the house when they were shot.

It also stated that they did try to lure him out initailly - so it seems to me they were doing it the right way....

But - knock/no-knock wasn't mentioned at all, though I suppose if they tried to lure them out, they probably had knocked.

- oh - and also quoted:

"...Jenne said that the task force knew Wilk and Jones were "weapons enthusiasts" and that they may be armed..."


so no I don't think they went in expecting a 'low threat' evolution...


read carefully - lest your preconceived notions run away with your brain....

FedDC
August 20, 2004, 02:10 PM
I am familiar with the story from several threads. They knocked, waited, waited, waited, and then finally decided to kick the door. It was not a SWAT team doing the entry, it was uniformed guys and detectives. That's the problem with "Low Threat", there is not such thing. There is only High Threat and Unknown Threat.

I do not like to second guess the guys on the scene and in this case, they did what we allways do on low threat, knock and wait....but they also faced what we all fear while doing this, that the suspect has time to kill us if he want to. It gives the suspect the initiative and in a gunfight initiative is a big advantage.

FedDC
August 20, 2004, 02:12 PM
Also, the suspect had no prior convictions which is a big deal in evaluating threat levels. Everyone has guns so we can't just say that since the suspect has guns, we get to go in without knocking.

Many judges will not sign off on no knock or after hours warrants without prior convictions and even moreso with non violent crimes like this guy was being charged with.

Justin
August 20, 2004, 02:19 PM
Can we please keep this from degenerating into another 'cops are all jack-booted thugs' flame fest?

Sergeant Sabre
August 20, 2004, 02:23 PM
Wonderful liberal spin. "High powered 30-30 hunting rifle". So is my .300 an "insanely-powered .300 anti-tank rifle"? What's next? "The suspect used a high-powered .22 cal target rifle?"

I'm wasting my breath....

R.H. Lee
August 20, 2004, 07:52 PM
From the article:
Jenne said last year Wilk got into a fight with officers who served a warrant then. He was charged with various counts of obstructing law enforcement officers

Jenne said that the task force knew Wilk and Jones were "weapons enthusiasts" and that they may be armed.

When the deputies entered the house and turned a corner, Kenneth Wilk, 42, shot them with a high-powered, 3030 hunting rifle. Other officers returned fire at Wilk, but he was not injured, Jenne said.


Somebody didn't do their homework before they attempted to "serve the warrant". In hindsight, it's easy to see the writing on the wall. Why didn't they just use tear gas and flashbangs?

Smoke
August 20, 2004, 08:13 PM
High powered 30-30. IS mine an average powered? Where do I get a high powered one.

Was it black? Green? Loaded hot?

I hate the press.

Smoke

yorick
August 20, 2004, 09:14 PM
Similar discussion about the same incident over on legal - but RileyMC - if the fact that a guy is a 'weapons enthusiast' is reason enough for going in no-knock w/ flashbangs - where do you draw the line?

When I was a dumb 17 yr old kid I had a 'summons' served at home for unpaid parking fines. Because my family were 'known gun enthusiasts' should the sheriff have come out with a tac-team and done a no-knock with flashbangs?

Of course not - but therein lies the problem - it's a judgement call - and it's easy to second guess after the fact - not so easy to make the right call every time when lives are at stake.....

R.H. Lee
August 20, 2004, 09:27 PM
Similar discussion about the same incident over on legal - but RileyMC - if the fact that a guy is a 'weapons enthusiast' is reason enough for going in no-knock w/ flashbangs - where do you draw the line?


Uhhhh....read the rest of the article, yorick. ... "last year Wilk got into a fight with officers who served a warrant then. He was charged with various counts of obstructing law enforcement officers".........they were serving a warrant for child porn.....they had already confiscated child porn on a previous warrant...........Wilk was living with a convicted sex offender.....

You think the fact that he's a "weapons enthusiast" should shield him? :rolleyes:

LAK
August 20, 2004, 09:51 PM
30-30 is a very good effectiveness of the 30-30.

As for the issue of serving warrants; easy .... make such arrests in a public place away from the residence or other "support" a suspect may have.

TarpleyG
August 20, 2004, 10:21 PM
Here's my take on this--kiddie porn is a horrible thing but caused the unecessary death of a deputy and the injury of another in this case. Was it really necessary to meet these guys on their own turf to make the arrest in this case? I think not. What prevented them from nabbing these guys when they went out to the Publix around the corner? Pedophile's gotta eat too, ya know. This is in the same vein as busting into a potentially hostile situation because some guy is growing a pot plant in his closet. Is it going to be of more harm tomorrow or the next day? Is there a reason to go in now?

Greg

SASS#23149
August 20, 2004, 10:34 PM
How in blue blazes did he not get harmed?!!
There should have been a hail of gunfire from trained shooters after the jerk blasted away with his rifle.!He should not have walked away from that inicident.
Too many times over the last few years that the perp wasn't hit or was wounded and recovering.
As you can see,it boils my oil to hear of a cop getting murdered and the perp walks out...and usually away after a slap on the hand.grrrrrrrrr

reagansquad
August 21, 2004, 12:14 AM
Why are all rifles 'high powered"???

Sunray
August 21, 2004, 12:29 AM
No plain Kevlar vest will stop any CF rifle bullet. They're not designed to stop them. Vests are rated by what they'll stop. The average issue vest will stop some, but not all, handgun rounds, knives and will dissipate blunt instrument blows, but won't do squat against a CF rifle. Stopping rifle bullets takes a heavy(18 lbs or so), expensive vest with ceramic armour inserts. These guys just ran into a puke with a CF rifle. Sad just the same.

Don't Tread On Me
August 21, 2004, 03:19 AM
Sorry....as bad as child pornography is, it isn't worth getting officers killed.


Police need better tactics - not suprise attacks. If they were aware this guy wasn't coming out, perhaps they should have called the SWAT out with their heavy shields and type 3 body armor.



There is nothing wrong with doing a search warrant. I don't believe in no-knock searches. Why?


Because if the police NEED to NOT knock in order to avoid danger or death or achieve suprise because the situation is sticky- then they ALREADY know enough or should fear enough to call in close quarters combat specialists like a SWAT team.


Still, like I said above I am against no-knock searches and raids...if they know there is criminal activity there, are 100% certain of it, and know there is danger -- they regular cops ought to lay seige to the building where the offending occupants are until serious professionals can execute the arrests with the proper methods and equipment so that no one (except maybe the perp) gets killed.



Believe me, no one who is critical of JBT's will ever say a word about a good clean bust of child pornographers. It is just a shame that the police methods used got an officer killed. It could have been prevented with a more defensive strategy.


Expect the unexpected.



Reminds me a lot of those people who argued against concealed carry using statements like "now the police won't know who is and isn't armed".....it is my understanding that all police are trained to assume that each person they approach may be armed with a gun and to be cautious. To do otherwise is to make assumptions of safety and to let your guard down....



Don't worry one bit, this is Florida and this thug is getting the NEEDLE 100%

TallPine
August 21, 2004, 11:44 AM
Some days the dragon wins.

mattHP
August 21, 2004, 12:04 PM
"Investigators had to wait for another search warrant to go in the house. While the first warrant was sufficient for the child pornography investigation, law enforcement officials had to get another one after the shooting."

*** is this? is one of your brothers being shot and killed not "just cause" for continued action? are they really bound this strictly? this just gives opportunity for rearming, repositioning, and setting up booby traps, if the guy was determined to fight it out.

Mixlesplick
August 21, 2004, 01:17 PM
As for the issue of serving warrants; easy .... make such arrests in a public place away from the residence or other "support" a suspect may have.

I can't figure out why this isn't done more often. It seems like people in their homes are more ready to "fight to the death" or barricade themselves in. If a warrant can be served on the street or someplace where there isn't a lot of other people around the police wouldn't have to worry as much about something like a 30-30 rifle. A person has access to all their "tools' at home but usually don't walk around outside their home with that hog leg shoved down their right trouser leg.

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