[Bob79]

OK I work in a town of about 100,000 people, mixed race, with about 7-8 homicides a year, and maybe an average of 1 legit shooting a month.

I was talking with another guy about guns, showed him my S&W 342PD as back-up, and he checked it out. Another guy calls me "paranoid" and further goes on about how all he needs is his glock. I asked what if it breaks, or you're in a fight (for the gun)? And he said his Glock won't break, and said most cops talk themselves into fights. And he just went on about how he doesn't put himself in situations or act to cause himself to need a back up:uhoh:

I tried saying that you never know what could happen, and I did acknowledge there are a few knucklehead guys who trouble always seems to find, but he didn't even listen one bit.

I felt like slapping him and saying "you never know what you're gonna run into out here, its better to be prepared". Back-up guns have saved lives and thats a fact, and whenever I talk w/ guys who don't carry a back-up I try making suggestions...some listen, most don't:(

[Darkside]

Ask him if he has a spare tire in his car.....Hummm planning on having a flat????

If you have enough reason to carry a gun then you have enough reason to carry TWO.:)

"whenever I talk w/ guys who don't carry a back-up I try making suggestions...some listen, most don't"

You are spot on about that.:( I think most who CCW don't want to go to the "extra trouble" of a BUG.

Darkside

[Ransom]

But do you have a backup to the backup?

[moa]

You mean you only carry ONE back-up! :D

[SoCalGeek]

You know the old saying, "One is none and two is one."

But seriously? Screw what he thinks. If he doesn't feel it's necessary to have a BUG, that's his choice. If you feel it is necessary, that's your choice. It's all about personal preference.

[dairycreek]

Let me make a suggestion FWIW. There will always be those who criticize you for that which you think or do. Such is life! If you opt to carry a backup weapon as part of your concealed carry/self defense strategy then, by all means, do so. That is absolutely nobody's business other than yours.

But when YOU choose to discuss these matter with others, then you make it THEIR business too. So, my suggestion is that you talk with nobody about your concealed carry status.

You indicate that you live in a city of 100,000 and, even in a city of that size, word does get around. I submit for your consideration that anybody knowing that you carry concealed does not necessarily well serve your personal interests.

I have carried concealed for over twenty years and the only people that know that I carry are my closest family members. That has always part of my concealed carry/self defense strategy and it has worked well for me. Good shooting;)

[Gunsnrovers]

The Brady Bunch will tell you you don't need ANY guns.... Whose opinion do you need?

[m39fan]

See my post on derringers. I know of one officer who had his duty weapon AND backup taken away at a bar fight. An unauthorized derringer (3rd gun) saved his life. I took note and put one in my pocket they night they pinned my badge on. Backups make you paranoid? Wonder what your "friend" would think of me? :D

It's YOUR life. What right does he have to say ANYTHING. Ignore him and plan on sending flowers if his one and only fails.....

Take Care,
Mike

[Texas Bob]

Large or small city, all the same, "gunfights happen at a place and time, not of your chosing." "My Glock don't break.".....YET. In over three decades of shooting I've seen or had happen to me a "breakage" of one type or another that the shooter could NOT fix. Mr. Murphy is alive and well, if someone doesn't care to ccw a backup, so be it. Be content in the knowledge that most of the truely professional people ccw a backup and have an obsession with safety.:)

[magsnubby]

Ask him to name you as beneficiary of his life insurance policy, smile and put another 342PD in your other pocket.

[M2 Carbine]

Number one, the guy is an idiot.
Number two, the guy is a wet behind the ears punk.

At sometime or another you meet these kind of people in most activities.

Ignore them, they are generally too stupid to educate.


The one place I very seldom ran into any of these type of people is flying. They usually didn't live long enough to irritate too many people.:)

[Standing Wolf]

There's nothing paranoid about being prepared for emergencies.

[mountainclmbr]

I don't always carry a backup 100% of the time, but I have been in situations that made me wish I had one.

[gbelleh]

I almost always carry a P-32 BUG. It's so light I forget it's there, but it's nice to know I have another 8 rounds if needed.

BTW, I had a brand new Glock 36 self destruct on me in the first 100 rounds. The recoil spring assembly broke apart completely disabling the gun and damaging the frame. Glocks can and do break.

[Zach S]

I'm assuming his sidearm is a G17 or G22, since they seem to be the most popular. Ask him why he carries extra mags. Surely 18 or 16 rounds is enough. When he says he might need them, tell him he's just being paraniod.

[Black Snowman]

The truth is that he's already much better prepared than most and that's a point in his favor. Denying Murphy is a good way to get him to come pay a visit however.

I can't CCW in KS yet so I have to settlese for carrying tools with me. In particular two 4 inch folding knives, a flashlight, and a Leatherman Wave. If I get to CCW the knives and light aren't going away but will be accompanied by a CZ RAMI and when possible a CZ 85 Compact as well.

It's not just about the reliability of the weapon, or it's effectiveness. What if you can't get to your primary? What if you need the hand that can reach the primary for something else?

I truly hope I never need to use any of it to defend myself or others but I'd feel a lot better having the option than not. I'm not paranoid either, I just refuse to be an easy victim.

Everyone has differant acceptable levels of risk. You know what you're are and he's found his. Live and let live, you can only control your own actions.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Paranoid? I think not, as I myself have carried a BUG for years.
As I recall, a fellow I know was working as a S/O in a housing
project with a gated community. Around 0200 hrs he was in
the process of catching a few Z's, when a 14 year old started
banging on the door to ask the time. When this individual got
up and opened the door to tell the kid what time it was; he
snatched the door open and put a handgun to the S/O's face
and said. "Give it up! This is the way we do it in the 'ville*".
He relieved him of his wallet, and his firearm. In talking with
the victim a few months later, he stated too me that he only
wishes he had a BUG that morning!

Who knows how it might have turned out; but it might have
given the S/O a fight'in chance?

* FootNote- "the 'ville" is reference to the Collegeville area
of North Birmingham, which is a very dangerous area of town.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[PBIR]

I'd say Dairycreek hit it spot on.

[Tamara]

I'd say Dairycreek hit it spot on.

I'd say that Dairycreek delivered his lecture on CCW without picking up the hint that Bob79 is a cop. ;)

[MrMurphy]

Just nickname the guy "Death Wish" and get everyone else to start calling him that.

I know some sheriff's deputies who are an hour away from backup who carry a shotgun, rifle, duty pistol, backup pistol, backup to the backup, and sometimes another one under the seat or something just in case.

Paranoid? Possibly..... but when you're the only cop within forty miles and everyone around you has a .30-06, I would be too.



There's a lot of street cops even in small towns with a P32 in their vest or on their belt to backup their backup. Enough cops have survived due to a third gun to where for the extra 9 ounces, why not?


I've carried a .38 to back up my .45 CCWing in wintertime because the .45 was buried under two layers and the .38 was in an outer pocket and easy to get to. Paranoid? Maybe, but having Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in hand crossing a parking lot late at night sure was nice.

[El Tejon]

Paranoid? I'm carrying 2 guns, what the heck do I have to be paranoid of?:D

[wasrjoe]

When you need a gun, you REALLY NEED A GUN. Nothing wrong with having two in that situation.

[dairycreek]

Tamara! Didn't mean for it to be a lecture. Just advice.

I was talking with another guy about guns, showed him my S&W 342PD as back-up, and he checked it out.

Police officer or not - advice still stands. Good shooting;)

[armoredman]

KelTec P11 rode in a body armor rig with me when I did armored, backing up the Witness 40 that still rides the hip. BUGs just make sense.
Now, we did have one messenger who overdid it...showed up to work in a black trenchcoat wearing...
Right side belt, Bersa, left side, Witness 45, tactical thigh, BOTH sides, Glocks, shoulder holster, Smith mod 10, slung under coat left side, AK47 with 75 round drum and 37mm flare launcher. I am serious. The boss made him leave most of the hardware at the shop.
He usually carried a Davis derringer in his back pocket, until he blew his pocket open and put a nice silver dollar burn mark on his buttcheek....

[Double Naught Spy]

I just have to laugh at the reasoning. So you carry a BUG and that makes you paranoid? Don't you love the double standard? Apparently if you carry more guns that this guy, then you must be paranoid. Of course, to some non-gun folks, carrying one gun means you are paranoid. Some folks just do not understand the difference between paranoid and prepared, although some paranoid people are prepared and some prepared people are a little paranoid.

I was stopped by Dept Public Safety officers for an expired inspection. I did the whole disclosure about carrying and informed the officer I was carrying two guns and explained where they were. While not what I thought was a question that really mattered, he asked why I thought I needed two guns. Now during the stop, I kept an eye on the second officer as well who was standing behind the C pillar of my car with his hand on his gun, trying to use the pillar's blind spot as concealment so that I would not notice him. I have the little convex mirrors that are specifically to give me a view of the rear blind spots so that I don't change lanes into another car that might be in my blind spot. I explained to the officer that I had two guns because unlike him, I didn't have a partner watching my flank, ducked behind the C pillar with his hand on his gun. The officer questioning me was apparently the much older and senior officer. He scowled and looked back to his younger partner. They both then retreated to the front of their vehicle where the senior officer spoke with the junior officer for about a minute before getting in their car and writing my citation. On the return trip, the junior officer stayed well back behind my car. I had no problem with his actions, but the senior officer apparently was not impressed at how his partner performed and the fact that I was aware of the junior partner's activities.

I often wear a ballistic vest to the range and folks ask if I am paranoid about getting shot. My usual reply is that since I have seen them shoot, the necessity of the vest is clear. They usually don't think that comment is funny.

As noted with the officers who are often more than an hour away from the next closest officer should they need backup, as a civilian, I don't have the option of getting on the radio with an 'officer needs assistance' call and expect local cops to drop everything and descend on my location. Where I live and where I work both have appropriate police populations, but if I call 911, I can't count on anyone being to my location in my home town any quicker than 4-8 minutes and where I work, no sooner than 26 minutes. They might get there more quickly, but I can't count on it. So, I am my own backup. So, both of us get one gun!

[Dienekes]

The current phraseology is a "go to hell plan". Anyone who doesn't think that things can go completely to hell in seconds is hopelessly ignorant. I admit that I didn't carry a BUG in my LEO days--but I should have.

I do now. No, I don't "expect" to need it. Heck, I don't expect to need the primary piece. But if everything *does* go south it's there.

Never take advice from anyone who doesn't have as much to lose as you do.

[The_Antibubba]

Hmmmm. I wonder what he's really up to? :scrutiny:


:D
-----------

Paranoia: The belief that someone REALLY cares.

[HiWayMan]

I consider myself prepared with an extra piece. Two Taurus 651s, one for each front pocket when out on the town. Saves me reloading for one thing. Another thing I've considered is that when I'm out with my gal, CCW or no CCW, she is gonna need something to back me up and if it gets real ugly, to protect herself. That is why she is always on my left side with her hand inches from my pocket;) .

[Bainx]

And he just went on about how he doesn't put himself in situations or act to cause himself to need a back up

Hey, if your buddy has the absolute ability to keep himself out of 'situations' then he does not need to carry a gun PERIOD!
Nor does he need insurance, spare tire, fire extinguisher.

[MrMurphy]

Hiwayman, it's either that or she wants to periodically inspect if you're happy to see her.

I'd carry another speed strip or two in a pocket anyways.. you never know.

[OF]

Isn't it just a bit funny that someone who carries a gun, making them one of the extremely small percentage of people on earth who carry a gun because they are: a) paranoid or b) like to be prepared, would berate someone else who carries a spare gun for being a) paranoid or b) over prepared.

"Man, carrying a gun is just common sense but carrying a spare gun!!? That's just crazy!!."

No matter where some people find themselves in life, the first thing they do is have a look around for someone to piss on so they can feel tall.

- Gabe

[Onmilo]

It is good to be paranoid.
Be one with the back-up.

[Nick96]

Were I in LE, I'd carry a BUG. Something small & light - type & caliber doesn't matter much - but a BUG all the same. For most of us "common folk" though, it's probably unnecessary.

In LE you have a duty to "get involved". As a private citizen, your duty is to protect yours & the lives of youre loved ones - not to "inject" yourself into situations that are of no immediate threat to you.

Do what you think is best - as long as it doesn't significantly impeed on your daily life.

[one45auto]

I have two words for the backup gun skeptics - "onion field."

Enough said.

[nhhillbilly]

Onion Field is reasonable. I carry a back up. I am LE. My cruiser has two rifles and a shotgun along with a pepperball gun. Use the right tool for the job.

My back up will be min. of 10 min. away. The whole world can fall apart in a minute.

[DontShootMe]

One day I carried 4 concealed guns at once - 1 on each side of my shoulder rig, one IWB, and one in an ankle rig. Went to my sis' house and some of my other family members were there, and a few of them swore I was 'looking for trouble' simply because I had 4 guns on me at the time. They all know I carry, and never accused me of looking for trouble with 1 gun, so here is my theory:

If you are carrying:

1 gun - you're a level-headed CCW'er
2 guns - you're paranoid, you'll never use all that firepower
3+ guns - you're a gun nut looking for trouble

My retort: I'm not looking for trouble, but if trouble finds me, I'm going to do my best to go home alive at the end of it all. But really day-to-day I usually only cary 1 gun w/no backup or spare mags.

[Kamicosmos]

some paranoid people are prepared and some prepared people are a little paranoid.

True words. Awesome quote!

[HiWayMan]

MrMurphy

I'm always happy to see her:D

I usually carry two reloads for each piece. Hey, she's too damn special not to carry enough gun or enough ammo to get the job done.

Besides I'm easy to spot. I'm the guy with two ammo belts, bulged pockets, and a big a** grin on my face.:p

[Stand_Watie]

You want to talk about paranoid...You should read 'Ned and Zeke' by Larry McMurty. There's one guy in there who has, shall we say, "an abundance of prudence" who carries 3 or 4 pistols and has learned when walking down the street to always walk sideways with his back to the wall...and has taught his dog to do the same:D :D

P.S. On the topic of 'The Onion Field', I think Joe Wambaugh is one of the greatest 'true crime' novelists of this generation. A lot of his stuff is supposed to be tongue in cheek like Larry McMurty's descriptions of the old west (cited above), but there's a lot of real truth hidden amongst the humorous fiction. If you want pure 'true crime', "Firestarter" is Wambaugh's best recent work. Almost everything else, with the exception of 'the onion field' and 'the blooding' is lighter, more humorous reading.

[Ben Shepherd]

Sounds like your glock buddy is someone who's very confident in his choice of weapons. Fine. Good for him.
But he better hope that he never, ever has a spring break, a jammed round, or something of the like. 'Cause if he does he's S.O.L.

As for me, a back up gun is SOP.

One other prospect rarely considered: There are numerous situations when arming a second individual with your back up gun would be a prudent choice.

[JerryM]

I think every LEO should be required to carry a BU.

But for a CHL holder, I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would need a BU. I believe any shooting would take place at a few feet, and be over in a few seconds. After all the BG doesn't want to hang around until the cops get there.
It is not reasonable to think a CHL is going to get into a lengthy gunfight in a parking lot or elsewhere.

So for me I have no thought of carrying a BU. If one wants to do so, then have at it. I would like to know what scenario one who does carry BU with a CHL visualizes that would require a BU. If your gun breaks or malfunctions in a close range gunfight it is all over for you as I see it. It is then fist and feet.

Jerry

[Nick96]

DontShootMe,
All I have to say is - if your realitives readily spotted you carrying 4 guns - you might as well have been carrying them in the open (since apparently it was obvious to the whole world anyway). As wierd as it may sound, in my younger days I'd conceal carry in a variety of ways around realitives since I know for sure that if they spotted me they'd ask "why the heck are you carrying that thing"? If they didn't ask - and I was carrying - I knew I had a good system going.

Stand_Watie,
In the "olde'n days", I understand that it was popular practice to carry more than one firearm - since it took a "Month of Sundays" to re-load a cap & ball "six-gun". Walking down walls side-ways & training dogs to be on the "look out" sounds excessive - but for literary imbellishment, it's effective. In those times - if I was that concerned - I'd avoid going to town - and tie a grocers note and some money to the dog to fetch me my "store bought vittles".

Bottom line - if you reasonably think you need one - carry a back up gun. Those charged with public safety are most in need of such things - the rest of us are probably not.

[unspellable]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

(If you don't believe this, try riding a motorcycle for a while.)

OK, so a Glock is infallible. But my Glock jammed up because of a factory loaded cartridge that was out of spec and couldn't be driven into the chamber with a mallet. So even the perfect gun can jam. (Had the exact same thing happen with my Winchester Model 1894.) Also had a mousegun misfire with a factory load because the primer was loaded into the pocket sideways.

Murphy was an optimist.

[Series 70]

I would like to know what scenario one who does carry BU with a CHL visualizes that would require a BU.

How about sitting down?

I carry a 1911 IWB 99% of the time. If I'm driving, or riding the bus to/from work, or otherwise sitting where I can't get up quickly or really lean away from the pistol to reach it, what's my solution?

Answer: J-frame in an ankle holster.

What about wearing a coat that inhibits access to an IWB holster, but not wanting to give up the faster access vs. an ankle holster? Or what if you find yourself in a situation where you'd like a gun in hand, but not obviously so, since the threat is not yet confirmed? Or you do find yourself in a gunfight and your primary goes down?

Answer: pocket carry. P3AT in my case.

That's right, three guns. A little more inconvenience, but only a little. If I'm sitting, I have easy access. Standing - easy access. Cold weather - easy access. Primary goes down - I have another. Need to give a gun to a friend - I have a spare.

I believe any shooting would take place at a few feet, and be over in a few seconds.

Most likely so. But in the event that it is not, what then?

Most likely, there will only be one or two assailants. But what if there are more?

Most likely, you will never need to draw your sidearm, yet you carry one.

It's the exceptions that prove the rule.

[OF]

So for me I have no thought of carrying a BU. If one wants to do so, then have at it.If only everyone had that attitude! Each to his own. As it should be. I don't (often) carry a BU, but I can't imagine disparaging someone who decides that it's right for them.

Now 4 guns, that's CRAZY MAN! :D

- Gabe

[MrMurphy]

I was in a situation once where I nearly had to engage four large hostile guys. There were three of us, only I was armed. A backup could have armed one of the other guys (who was a shooter and whose CHL was being processed, but didn't have it yet).

[CAS700850]

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you...

Bob79, I work law enforcement in a community where the entire county population is not much more than your community, yet every good officer I work with has a Glock 22/23 on his/her hip, and either a Glock 27 or a snubby .38 (Smith or Taurus) on an ankle or strapped to the body armor. Most carry spare mags (beyond the two on the belt) in the cruiser with the shotgun and AR-15. It's not being paranoid, it's being prepared. Kepp carrying, and keep safe.

[carpettbaggerr]

a few of them swore I was 'looking for trouble' simply because I had 4 guns on me at the time. How did they know you had 4 guns? :scrutiny:

Perhaps you should line your holsters with tin-foil to block their X-ray vision.....

[Bob79]

Thanks for the positive comments people. Its my opinion that it should be mandatory for LEO's to carry a back-up, and I still continue to recommend others to carry a BUG (when the conversation comes up, I don't go around preaching non-stop).

I always recommend a 5-shot revolver first (my opinion), and I usually point out a P-32 is MUCH better than no BUG, and only costs about $225. Stay safe!

[Partisan Ranger]

Tell the guy to read Boston's Gun Bible. In it, the author has a section where he advises you what to carry as your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th:what: carry piece. I mean, simultaneously!

[FRIENDLY]

You only have to ask yourself what you are going to do to ensure you come home at night in good condition and act accordingly.Your choice nobody elses.

[355sigfan]

Your paranoid so what. Thats a compliment. In my line of work paranoia has saved a lot of Narcs their lives. Its good to think about the worst thing that can happen and plan on it. If he is a cop and he is not a little paranoid then he is asking to get hurt.
Pat

[Jack19]

My back up is an AR...and I'm not paranoid. Well....not much. ;-)

[caz223]

You're only paranoid if the fecal matter never hits the air circulator.
When the SHTF, and you're prepared, you'll thank yourself.
It depends on the situations you find yourself in, and what kind of luck you have had in past SHTF situations.

[Jeff Timm]

I grew up in a small bedroom community outside Cleveland, OH. One of the first Officers on the local Police force was there 30 years, he never made chief, so we elected him mayor.

He carred a Colt 357 revolver and a Colt .25 pocket automatic, every day on duty. Off duty he carried a Colt Cobra and the .25.

He died of cancer in his 70's.

Geoff
Who learns by example. :cool:

[Andrew Rothman]

I think that this thread serves as the justification I've been looking for to get one of those cute little Kahr 9mm pistols.

When my wife hits the ceiling, I'll send her here to talk to you guys. :D