ND last night. Listen and learn.


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Brad Johnson
August 21, 2004, 02:47 PM
Guys (and Gals) after 30+ years of handling guns safely I had my first - and hopefully last - negligent discharge last night. The blame is purely mine. Read on and learn...

I spent the evening at some friends. They are thinking about getting their concealed carry license. Since neither of them has much experience with handguns so I was going over some basic safety tips and showing her how to safely operate a semi-auto. After a while we called it quits. As always, I was going to check the chamber condition of each gun before putting it away. I pulled back the slide on the my friends' Ruger MarkII, noted that the chamber was empty, released the slide, pointed in a safe direction to release the trigger...

BANG!!!

After I had a chance to collect my thoughts I discovered that my friend, trying to be helpful, had slipped the mag back in the gun as I was turned to talk to his wife. When I checked chamber condition I failed to tip up the gun and check the condition of the magazine well. Although the chamber was indeed empty when I checked it, releasing the slide chambered a round. Thank God I had the thing pointed in a safe direction, as all it did was punch a quarter inch hole in the sheetrock. Chalk that one up to my "treat it like it's loaded even when you think it's not" mentality.

After sitting up all night running it through my head, I have come to this conclusion; Since I set the gun down, and it was in the same position as when I set it down, I unconsciously left out the step of tipping the gun so I could see the mag well. Also, all my other guns have an American style mag release, and I always thumb the release as part of my condition check. This particular gun has a European style mag release. Many reviews in my head later I can distinctly recall my thumb pressing on the side of the grip to activate the mag release, but there was none there to activate.

So, my errors include:

- An assumption of condition based on my recollection and not a physical check of the gun

- A reliance on my wrote following of a safety routine that was negated by the operating controls of this particular gun

- A failure to completely check the physical condition of the gun prior to dropping the hammer

Lessons learned are:

- Never, under any circumstances, let yourself fall into an unconscious safety routine. CONSCIOUSLY VERIFY EACH PARAMETER EACH AND EVERY TIME!

- Never, under any circumstances, assume the condition of the gun EVEN IF YOU ARE CERTAIN YOU WERE THE LAST ONE TO HANDLE IT!

I'll be up several more nights reviewing it in my head, just to make sure I never, ever, forget that I could have caused a tradgedy last night. My friends are not mad at me, but I am mad enough at myself for all three of us. I just hope someone reading this takes a lesson away from it, and that my friends aren't turned off from firearms because of it.

Brad

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Ala Dan
August 21, 2004, 02:54 PM
Greeting's Brad -

Certainly glad that no one was injured. I'm sure you learned
a very valuable lesson as well; "every firearm is ALWAYS loaded"!
I will assure you, it will help in teaching others.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Jim K
August 21, 2004, 05:19 PM
Auto pistol (and rifle) rule:

Always remove the magazine before checking the chamber. Had you done that, you would have realized that he had put the magazine in.

But you get a "naughty boy" for having the magazine loaded, unless the Ruger is either your carry gun or your home defense gun, which is probably not the case.

Glad no one was hurt, and that your good gun handling in that respect kept things from being worse.

Jim

mussi
August 21, 2004, 05:28 PM
In the Army, I also had a SIG P220 9mm with a 'Euro' mag release. Big advantage - one gets used to check with the finger reaching into the mag well whether there's a mag inside....

magsnubby
August 21, 2004, 05:44 PM
Sounds like a lesson well learned.

I've never had an n/d but i did have to shoot a matress once that was attacking me. That ole S&W .38 took care of the problem right quick.

One question:
What's the reason for pulling the trigger on an empty weapon? To relive the pressure on the trigger spring? Or......?

nhhillbilly
August 21, 2004, 05:47 PM
Thanks for reminding us. But use both your eyes and fingers to tell if the firearm is empty. YOu then can check it in the dark. I bet if you put your little finger in the chamber you would have felt the magazine and bell would have gone off not the gun.

sendec
August 21, 2004, 05:54 PM
Checking the chamber and magazine well is both a visual and physical drill, we need to look AND feel.

Triggers are typically pressed during an unload to "relax" the hammer and springs. The other reason, the reason no one mentions, is cases just such as this - to have the ND in a relatively controlled environment: to wit, if you are unloading at the range the absolute last action before casing the gun is to aim it downrange and dryfire. If the unload was screwed up the round goes into the backstop instead of your spouse who is reading in the next room while you are cleaning your pistol. It is a means of "forcing" the ND sooner rather than later.

Of course all of this is avoided by a visual and physical inspection of the chamber, magazine well and follower prior to a trigger press.

Glad no one was hurt.

Brad Johnson
August 21, 2004, 06:05 PM
Glad no one was hurt.

Me too, brother. Me too.

Brad

JohnKSa
August 21, 2004, 10:45 PM
Common ND scenario 1

Multiple people handle a single firearm with ammunition in the same area.

X hands Y an empty gun, Y hands the gun back loaded (trying to be helpful usually). X doesn't check or checks half-heartedly since he "already KNOWS it's unloaded"--gun goes bang.

Common ND scenario 2

Experienced shooter unloads gun for display, reloads it without thinking.

X pulls out carry gun to show someone. X unloads carry gun (drops mag and locks slide back). X goes into autopilot and puts mag back in before dropping the slide--gun goes bang.

BHPshooter
August 21, 2004, 11:04 PM
NDs suck, I can attest to that.

Learn from it, but put it behind you... the hardest part for me is to not be haunted by it.

Wes

Chut1st
August 22, 2004, 11:58 AM
Thanks for the graphic reminder, Brad.

When we're around guns every day, even with good habits developed, it's hard to not become complacent.

El Tejon
August 22, 2004, 12:59 PM
Glad everyone is O.K.

Even though you violated Rule #1 (All guns are always loaded), you followed Rule #2 (never point the muzzle at anything you do not intend to destroy).

Clear the weapon, lock the slide, mag out, USE YOUR FINGER (pinky) to check it.

We've had this debate on THR before. I think this settles it: USE YOUR FINGER, NOT JUST YOUR EYES.:what:

SAWBONES
August 22, 2004, 01:17 PM
Also, not to add insult to injury, but you should never drop the hammer/striker on an unloaded, unprotected .22LR pistol like the Ruger MkII. You may damage the firing pin or striker tip, since it's a rimfire pistol. Put an empty .22LR case in the chamber or use a snap cap if you feel you MUST drop the hammer.

CGofMP
August 22, 2004, 03:12 PM
It takes a real MAN to suck it up and admit his own failings, especially to those who are not predisposed to patting you on the head. What you did was stupid but posting it for all to see and learn from was courageous. Perhaps you saved a life down the line... Perhaps one of us perfect people who read this site will think twice because of your post and not make the same error.

Bainx
August 22, 2004, 05:14 PM
Glad you and others are OK

Bump back to top---newbies please heed this posting.

gunsmith
August 22, 2004, 07:31 PM
Once though I had to shoot my radio which was assaulting me with a mattress,I got the radio with a 9mm the bullet went thru and went thru the mattress as well finally stopping in the wall which was part of the conspiracy too.
The radio has learned it's lesson-no light rock when loaded guns are present!...

Anyway I am glad everything is OK and that you shared your story here, as we all learn.

JohnKSa
August 22, 2004, 07:40 PM
SAWBONES,

The Ruger MK II and the Ruger 10/22 have firing pin stops which allow the gun to be safely dryfired without the possibility of damage.

cordex
August 22, 2004, 07:51 PM
I tend to work the action multiple times in addition to a physical check.

Just in case.

It's worked for me so far.

YammyMonkey
August 22, 2004, 09:46 PM
My ND was with an airgun. Fortunately the BB didn't ricochet off the concrete wall and back to me. Learned that lesson real quick. Beat myself up for it for at least a week as well. Never happened again but it still makes me uncomfortable when I think about it more than 10 years after the fact.

Brad Johnson
August 23, 2004, 07:02 PM
Bump, in the hopes that it will keep someone from pulling the stupid stunt I did.

Brad

Muzzleflash
August 23, 2004, 07:17 PM
My ND was with a .410 shotgun while running, years ago.

Shocked the crap out of me and turned me into an obsessive gun safety person.

Gordon Fink
August 23, 2004, 07:19 PM
Brad, are your friends still interested in getting handguns and carry permits?

~G. Fink

Brad Johnson
August 23, 2004, 07:26 PM
Yeah, she's still a little shaky, but he and I went to the range yesterday for a couple of hours. No unintentional holes this time.

Brad

Blackcloud6
August 23, 2004, 08:38 PM
When we're around guns every day, even with good habits developed, it's hard to not become complacent.

Sometimes experience and familiartiy can work against us. I've heard that some of the most dangerous pilots in the air force are Majors and Lieutenant Colonels with a few thousands hours behind them.

I once knew of a full bull Colonel fighter jock who was making his pre-flight checks on a F-16C. Like a good boy he was using his checklist book to ensure he did everything as it should be and in order. He leaned down to check under the air intake and place his checklist on the intake. He proceeded to the cockpit, lowered the canopy and started the engine. A cloud of "snow" farted out the back end and the engine warning lights came on. The snow was the shredded pages of his checklist book and the warning lights were warning of compressor blade failures from the nice metal rings the pilots use to hold the checklists together. What impressed me was that the very next day he gathered all the officers of the fighter squadron into the ready room and stood up at the podium and told the whole story. His was a lesson in 'experienced' complacency and what can happen when you loose your concentration. I admired him for that.

Mr. Johnson, thank you for taking the time to share your story with us and to provide us with the warning that it can happen to everybody and anybody. We must always be on guard.. against ourselves, as we can be own worst enemy.

Dave R
August 23, 2004, 08:52 PM
Thanks for sharing that vivid reminder.

The good news is, that your experience also reinforces the need to follow all four of the rules all the time.

The violation of just one of the 4 rules will generally cause only embarrassment, not injury. You need to violate multiple rules to generate injury.

TimH
August 23, 2004, 09:37 PM
Count your blessings

Brad Johnson
June 28, 2007, 02:10 PM
Found while digging through some of my old posts for an unrelated item.

BTT as a reminder for all.

Brad

Oleg Volk
June 28, 2007, 02:31 PM
With .22s especially, look and feel into the chamber. Extractors fail to pull out live rounds more often than we expect.

Dave Dembinski
June 28, 2007, 02:40 PM
Thanks for bumping, Brad. Those of us who've had NDs have gained, if nothing else, an exceedingly visceral reminder of the necessity of safety rules. Spending a few hours freaking out wondering if the police are going to show up over that shot, spending a few nights unable to sleep wondering about what-ifs, spending a few weeks feeling like the biggest hypocrite alive when you tell other people about gun safety... it all adds up to spending a lifetime with a slightly louder angel on your shoulder telling you to check that gun just one more time before pulling the trigger.

James T Thomas
June 28, 2007, 03:08 PM
Brad:

You confirm one of my statements as to some benefits of revolvers. I was surprised at the convoluted argument here in THR that I received on this, but I am of the opinion that the revolver is more readily examined for loaded or unloaded condition than the semiautomatic pistol. Especially for the novice shooter. I even find examining the chamber for a round in place, in pistols, to be chancy when just glanced at. Therefore I make it a procedure to insert my finger in there and feel. Some chambers obscure the round well.
And as you had happen; the magazine is another source to be checked.

I witnessed an ND with a 1911 pistol that resulted in the button being cut off from the man sitting beside the man holding the gun. He was preparing to clean it. It resulted in a fist fight and bitter feelings.

Thanks for posting.

Bobo
June 28, 2007, 04:45 PM
Thanks for overcoming your embarrassment and sharing your lesson with us!:D

S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
June 28, 2007, 05:00 PM
That's the beauty of the four rules: a failure to follow any one of the rules still means that nobody dies.

beaucoup ammo
June 28, 2007, 05:44 PM
Thanks, Brad. I've been carrying cocked and locked for the last month..but unchambered the round after reading your post. Absolutely no reason for me to do that other than, in the back of my mind, I've felt a little uneasy about that mode and was trying to overcome my reluctance.

Situations are unrelated, but the prospect of a ND has lurked in the back of my mind. Just one of those things I have to work on.

Your experience was just enough to push me back to a wheelgun for concealed carry..for a while anyway. Thanks for sharing that..I admire you for doing so. "The Four Rules" can never be over stated.

Leanwolf
June 28, 2007, 06:00 PM
In addition to the Four Universal Rules, the very first Rule of Firearms Instruction is.....

Never, Ever, have live ammunition anywhere in the vicinity of the firearm(s) you are using to instruct. Never!!

Instructing at a Range where you're later going to have your student shoot, yes. But no ammo whatsoever availible until you are ready to load and fire downrange.

L.W.

chefman
June 28, 2007, 08:42 PM
Hi guys, newbie to posting here but I've been reading for weeks. Great site! Anyway I had to share this experience. I and a friend were in the woods plinking away with our .22 revolvers. Both of us being safety conscious would always count our shots (each others). After 6 shots each we would reload. My friend had just fired off his 6th round and pulled the trigger one more time and the gun fired a 7th time!! We were both taken back by this because we were not counting out loud! We agreed that it was time to put them up.

Stevie-Ray
June 30, 2007, 01:49 AM
Brad, at least you performed the most important step properly.

pointed in a safe direction to release the trigger...

No matter where I am, I never fail to do this. Upstairs, it's out the doorwall and pointing to the ground. Downstairs, it's into my old couch, beneath which is the cement floor. The 2 NDs I've had were with the guns pointed at the target, thank God, but they were lousy shots.;)

Brad Johnson
December 5, 2007, 05:51 PM
BTT because safety can't be reiterated often enough.

Brad

Cannonball888
December 5, 2007, 06:17 PM
I'm glad no one was hurt. But can someone tell me how one can not notice a round in an inserted magazine when looking at the chamber?

Brad Johnson
December 5, 2007, 06:24 PM
Cruddy ammo, dark room, and severe grip angle.

Brad

1911Tuner
December 5, 2007, 06:28 PM
Brad...Kudos for doin' the "Man Up" thing and sharing this with us as a reminder that it can happen to anyone at any time whenever guns are on the table. You can't count on what somebody else will do while your back is turned. If the gun leaves your possession or is out of your sight for even a second...always check it to see that it's clear.

We can avert tragedy...even if we fail to follow all the rules...except the one that demands that we point the gun in such a direction so as to prevent destroying anything that can't be replaced with money.

Yes. It's loaded. it's always loaded.

Be aware of where the muzzle is pointed. Always.

Don't touch the trigger until you are prepared for the gu to fire. That's what the trigger does.

Be sure of your target, and what lies behind it. Always.

Be safe, all.

Templar223
December 5, 2007, 06:58 PM
Thanks for your candid explanation of a ND.

Personally - and I don't mean this as sounding like I'm on a high horse because it could happen to anyone of us in a weak moment - I literally double check the gun if I'm going to pull a trigger.

Open the slide, see daylight in the mag well, see an empty chamber (including locking open the slide and using tactile verification if I can't clearly see into the chamber).

Then I repeat the process over. It feels 'stupid', but only after that second look will I then carefully pull that trigger while pointing in a safe direction. I even have an old, ill-fitting ballistic vest (LOL... it was a gift from a LEO friend... must have been worn by a 300# man and I'm 98 pounds soaking wet) in my toy room that serves as a "safe direction".

It is because of NDs that I prefer to leave my gun in the holster where possible. The less I handle loaded guns unnecessarily, especially when tired or distracted, the less likely I am to hear any clicks that go "BOOM!".

Everyone should have their own procedure and follow it religiously. This is just what works for me.

John

SASS#23149
December 5, 2007, 07:08 PM
how one can not notice a round in an inserted magazine when looking at the chamber?

It's call complacency.(sp)

speaking as one who also has 30 years gun handeling experience,it does set in .

The ND was a bad enough thing to happen,but to have it happen under these circumstances is doubly embarrasing.

Glad you knew to keep the muzzle away from people.

I for one do NOT 'drop the hammer' on an 'empty' gun. I"ve read WAY too many reports like this to want to do so.

atblis
December 5, 2007, 07:14 PM
I always look at the chamber as the slide is closing. Basically, I watch the slide close on an empty chamber. Get's around the magazine being in the gun thing.

Open the slide, see daylight in the mag well, see an empty chamber (including locking open the slide and using tactile verification if I can't clearly see into the chamber).
Yep, that's more or less what I do. Works so far. I'll do that repeatedly if I am handling a gun in a store or whatever.

frogomatic
December 5, 2007, 07:24 PM
not the first ND I know of, won't be the last. I too learned the lesson the hard way after I blew a hole in my living room wall with my 45. I hope your experience with ND will have the same effect on you that mine did on me. I'm now borderline paranoid about checking, double checking, and triple checking my firearms to prevent any ND's. Live and learn, sir, live and learn.

ArfinGreebly
December 5, 2007, 08:24 PM
Happily, all of my AD/ND events have been at the range with safe backstop.

Most embarrassing moment, showing wife the XD-40: Drop mag from pistol, "See, dear, one of the safety features of this model is that it won't fire without the magazine . . ." Point pistol downrange without mag, pull trigger. BANG! Oh, crap! No mag disconnect in the XD.

:(

:o

However.

When I turn in for the night and lay out my gear (flashlight, pistol, etc.) I completely unload the pistol. Always. Drop mag, lock slide back, check chamber. And then I reload it. Deliberately.

For a few seconds, it's unloaded, and I verify that. And then I make sure it is positively loaded again. Always. Even with the revolver. Always.

It's a ritual.

Its purpose is to assure myself that the pistol is fully loaded and loaded with the correct ammo.

There is one more thing I need to do, and I might recommend it for anyone who keeps a pistol: I need to get a sand bucket.

I don't mind running the vacuum cleaner if I completely screw up and ND/AD over a sand bucket.

Not having to repair the house or pay hospital bills? Priceless.

For everything else, there's MasterCard.

1911Tuner
December 5, 2007, 08:33 PM
There is one more thing I need to do, and I might recommend it for anyone who keeps a pistol: I need to get a sand bucket.

I don't mind running the vacuum cleaner if I completely screw up and ND/AD over a sand bucket

A two-foot thick stack of dry newspapers will serve the same purpose without havin' to run the vacuum cleaner...

Cheers

DoubleTapDrew
December 5, 2007, 08:34 PM
With .22s especially, look and feel into the chamber. Extractors fail to pull out live rounds more often than we expect.

Ain't that the truth. Almost had a ND with a 10/22 when I was about 12. Had just come back from a weekend of varmint shooting and we're in the basement back home unpacking gear. A quick pull of the bolt, nothing comes out, rifle is handed to me. I do the same and quickly glance in there, let it slap home, and start to shoulder the rifle...wait, something wasn't right. Look in there again under the light. Thats...the rim of an unfired CCI Mini-Mag in the chamber! Rack the bolt a few times and it's stuck in there. Delicate cleaning rod action removed it.
That's the only time I can recall that gun having a failure to extract, and (naturally) it's a live round, discovered back at home where it would have done the most damage if a ND occurred.
Double and triple check those .22 chambers!

hksw
December 5, 2007, 08:34 PM
But can someone tell me how one can not notice a round in an inserted magazine when looking at the chamber?

For most semis, because of the indexing hood above and to the rear of the chamber, it is easier to view the chamber from the side. Looking into the chamber is also easier from the rear. The ejection port of most semis (unlike Beretta 92-type guns) covers the chamber half way up the side. Pull the slide back slightly just enough to look into the chamber but not far back enough to lock the slide back and see under the chamber and into the magazine well and you'll never see the top round.

Charles S
December 5, 2007, 08:46 PM
I am glad no one was hurt. We all can learn from this.

Once though I had to shoot my radio which was assaulting me with a mattress,I got the radio with a 9mm the bullet went thru and went thru the mattress as well finally stopping in the wall which was part of the conspiracy too.
The radio has learned it's lesson-no light rock when loaded guns are present!...

Anyway I am glad everything is OK and that you shared your story here, as we all learn.
__________________

ROTFLMA...Sorry man, that was funny. Glad you shared.

Brad Johnson
July 8, 2008, 02:05 PM
BTT for the semi-annual reminder of how stupid I was, and a hope that someone else will learn from it.

Brad

Blackbeard
July 8, 2008, 02:17 PM
So did your ND cause your friends to rethink their CCW permits? Or did they get them anyway?

XD Fan
July 8, 2008, 02:55 PM
I appreciate the careful post-event analysis.

Brad Johnson
July 8, 2008, 03:02 PM
So did your ND cause your friends to rethink their CCW permits? Or did they get them anyway?

They both have their CHLs now. Thankfully the experience didn't turn them away.

Brad

La Pistoletta
July 8, 2008, 03:11 PM
What's the difference between a Euro and US style mag release?

shdwfx
July 8, 2008, 03:15 PM
BTT for the semi-annual reminder ...

Thanks for sharing.
Is it part of your penenace to occasionally bump the thread for your sin? :)

P.S.
Distinctly remember my ND like it was yesterday. At thirteen years old, had the Ruger out one summer night to dispatch a critter holed up in the corner next to my dog's house. Back inside, dropped the mag and pulled the trigger.
The only losses were a glass lamp shade (bad) and my pride (good).

BryanP
July 8, 2008, 03:24 PM
What's the difference between a Euro and US style mag release?

A US style magazine release is the little button that sits just behind the trigger. That's what most of us are used to.

A European style mag release is on the bottom of the magazine well.

Old Grump
July 8, 2008, 03:29 PM
American-button on one or both sides
European-catch on the bottom

Learned to stick my finger into the chamber to check it before closing the slide but like most of my buddies we got complacent and stopped doing it. A friend of mine took over the watch at the ASROC station and his mind was elsewhere as he performed the usual count the bullets accept the gun etc. routine. Only this time he inserted the magazine before he let the slide go forward and pulled the trigger on a loaded chamber. He was still standing there with the gun in the air when they came to take the gun away from him and relieve him of his watch. The Captain had just stepped onto the flying bridge and the round came up between his feet. Since that day in 1968 I have been fanatic about sticking my finger in the chamber even though the light was good and I could see down into the barrel and down the magazine well.

That being said, 3 years ago I discharged my 300WBY through the wall of my deer blind in front of 2 people after I had just bragged I had never had a serious incident with a firearm in 40 years. There is a God and he has a way of making proud people humble. Only thing hurt was my pride and my credibility. On the way home I had to stop my car, go into the ditch and throw up. I don't get shook up very easy but that got me.

FCFC
July 8, 2008, 03:35 PM
Good reminder, Brad. Thanks.


Ain't that the truth. Almost had a ND with a 10/22 when I was about ...

This was a good story and reminded me of the time I was in a pawn shop/FFL when an employee was opening up a shipping box which contained an AR-15 that had been shipped in for a transfer to a local buyer. He removed the weapon from the carefully packed box, saw there was no mag in the rifle, picked up the gun without going near the trigger, pointed the gun toward the ceiling, yanks on the charge handle to check the chamber and.....out pops a metallic object which bounces off the counter and clinks onto the floor!

It was a A-Zoom .223 Snap Cap.

Scared the hell out of him. Kinda scared the hell out of the rest of us in the store too.

U.S.SFC_RET
July 8, 2008, 03:35 PM
I have said it before and i will say it again. I have one dead uncle and one dead brother in law due to "empty" and unloaded firearms.

Brad Johnson
July 8, 2008, 04:33 PM
Thanks for sharing.
Is it part of your penenace to occasionally bump the thread for your sin?

It really shook me up. A lot. Far worse than anything I can immediately recall.

I do this as a personal reminder that complacence is the enemy, and in the hope it will keep someone else from pulling the same dumb stunt.

Brad

30 cal slob
July 8, 2008, 04:37 PM
Multiple people handle a single firearm with ammunition in the same area.

Yup.

If I am in a non-range setting and handling firearms with others, I make sure there is no ammo present (except that which is physically in my CCW).

And I always assume that if multiple people handle a weapon, the weapon needs to be UNLOADED before being put away.

If dry firing is done ... muzzle gets pointed at bucket filled with sand.

Regen
July 8, 2008, 05:06 PM
I've been following the four rules ever since I touched my first gun. But recently someone asked me how I know what a safe direction is. We were unable to locate a safe direction in the room in which we where standing.

When I got home, I realized that in the room in which I have my gun safe, I don't have a safe direction. I was assuming that the safe itself could be used as a back stop, which may be true, but odds are the bullet would ricochet can come back out of the safe.

So I wound up purchasing a Safe Direction to use when loading and unloading my guns.

I have not had a chance to test the Safe Direction (and I hope I never will) but I now am much more confident that if I do have an ND, the round will be contained.

BTW, I have no association with Safe Direction other than as a customer.

wally
July 8, 2008, 05:11 PM
With .22s especially, look and feel into the chamber. Extractors fail to pull out live rounds more often than we expect.

+1! .22 pistols often have failures extracting loaded rounds.

Other than for my carry gun, which I never show anyone, my guns and their ammo only meet at the range, otherwise they are stored separately.

For most guns I keep a spare mag in them to facilitate locking back to show clear, but the loaded mags are never with the guns except at the range.

--wally.

SsevenN
July 8, 2008, 05:12 PM
I've never had an n/d but i did have to shoot a matress once that was attacking me. That ole S&W .38 took care of the problem right quick.

One question:
What's the reason for pulling the trigger on an empty weapon? To relive the pressure on the trigger spring? Or......?

Reminds me of the crazed coffee table I had to put down once.

.....Nope, never had a ND, just one crazy table with a death wish..............;)

Mainsail
July 8, 2008, 05:18 PM
I’m glad to hear everyone came out of it smarter and uninjured!

Even though you violated Rule #1 (All guns are always loaded)…
This is another case of saying something that sounds good because it sounds good, not because it has any substance. It is the dumbing-down of the real firearms rules that contributes to these NDs.

All guns are not always loaded.
If they were always loaded we would never clean, admire, show, or dry-fire them.

By definition, a RULE must be inviolate. You cannot teach and practice, “all guns are always loaded” and then demonstrate behavior completely inconsistent with the statement. By bastardizing the real rule you enable dangerous situations like the one in the story.

If I say I have a rule that I will not drive after drinking alcohol only to decide later, when I’m drunk, that I can probably make it home and drive, then I really have no rule at all. I will have demonstrated that the “rule” is a lie.

The real rule is, “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.” To which I add; “If it leaves your hand for any amount of time, check it again.”

If you or the person to whom you’re teaching firearms safety cannot intellectually grasp the real rule and you have to simplify it so much that it becomes a lie, it would be best for everyone if you/they didn’t own a firearm.

I don’t think the OP violated Rule 1 as much as he failed to properly clear the weapon. He tried, but missed a crucial step. Fortunately, he does know the rules of handling a firearm and had it pointed in a safe direction. Please, do not teach, “every gun is always loaded” because nobody really believes or follows it.

Brass Rain
July 8, 2008, 05:55 PM
Glad you're okay. I always try to be extremely sure a gun's unloaded when I think it is. Release the magazine, look down the magwell, look down the chamber, put my pinky finger to the chamber to check again, then look down the business end of the barrel. Then it's 100% unloaded.

SSN Vet
July 9, 2008, 12:56 AM
Wow! Just Wow!

Thanks for sharing your story.

Now for my daily reminder....

I will be a safety fanatic.

I will be a safety fanatic

I will be a safety fanatic.

O.K. That should get me through untill the a.m.

abrink
July 9, 2008, 01:44 AM
In the Army, I also had a SIG P220 9mm

Don't mean to bust your bubble, but there's no suck thing as a SIG 220 9mm. They come in .45 and that's it.:neener:

Mil-Spec45
July 9, 2008, 02:42 AM
there's no suck thing as a SIG 220 9mm He must have meant a 226 or 229

Brad,
It takes a lot to admit you had a ND, especially because once you tell about it, all the OSHA-wannabes come out of the woodwork to make you feel stupid by letting you know exactly what you did wrong and what you should have done (as if you don't know). I, on the other hand, know that having one changes your attitude more than what some strangers on a forum can tell you. Having one is enough to remind you forever.

It is a dumb move on people's part, but you're not stupid. That is the whole reason why you practice "safe direction". I had a ND with my XD, and I'm not afraid to admit it...I'm more of a safety freak now then any of my friends who haven't had one. I shot "safetly" down into a mattress, and nobody else was around. Stupid, but safe direction nonetheless. I personally wouldn't feel bad about it...I keep the case on display to remind me.

rainbowbob
July 9, 2008, 02:59 AM
Very glad it was a non-injury event - and thanks for sharing.

However...the simplification of this rule:

...All guns are always loaded...

...always drive me crazy!

If this is true - with absolutely positively NO EXCEPTIONS as everybody seems to be so fond of insisting, will someone please explain:

How you clean a loaded gun?

How you load a loaded gun?

How you thoroughly inspect (crown, rifling, etc) a loaded gun?

yhtomit
July 9, 2008, 03:01 AM
Thanks for your honestly and willngness to dissect that experience -- I hope it helps at least one person (me, for starters!) to avoid doing the same.

timothy

straightShot
July 9, 2008, 07:31 AM
It's not always easy to admit mistakes. It makes us all think, however. Thanks.

lordgroom
July 9, 2008, 08:03 AM
I appreciate reading this thread. It helps me review my own safety precautions. Thanks for your openess about this.

RobMoore
July 9, 2008, 08:45 AM
Gotta agree with mainsail and rainbowbob, and add a bit. An unloaded gun never hurt anyone unless it was used as a blunt instrument. If it goes off, it was loaded. You just didn't check it properly.

From what I read, and I hate to bring this old story up again, the OP made the same mistake as Mr. "Professional" DEA. He checked the chamber, but not the magazine well. Sorry to put you in with that character, Brad.

Reverend73
July 9, 2008, 12:54 PM
Well said Mainsail. All guns are NOT always loaded. Makes no sense.

Rule 1: Treat every gun as if it is loaded until it is verified that it is not, and even then, do not violate the rest of the rules. :)

U.S.SFC_RET
July 10, 2008, 11:36 PM
Mainsail Quoted:[QUOTE][All guns are not always loaded.
/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying in your post but think of it this way.
"Treat all firearms as if they are loaded and ready to fire"

Pay that kind of respect to a firearm.
If you are not taught to respect firearms then trouble could be brewing in the future.
I have seen Range personnel, average shooters, Good shooters to include myself if I don't watch it, get careless. You get careless because you get too comfortable with the firearms you see everyday.

I store Ammunition seperate and away from my firearms. Never together with the exception of the house protection.

Get into the good habits.

Stevie-Ray
July 10, 2008, 11:48 PM
"Treat all firearms as if they are loaded and ready to fire"Until you have verified that they are not!

ReadyontheRight
July 11, 2008, 12:04 AM
The best Safety is between the ears. Thanks for making us all a little smarter by your experience. I am so glod no one was hurt.

With any autoloader, I always rack the slide twice when I think it's empty. For this exact reason. Of course, my routine could easily get too routine, so thanks again for the post and your reminder.

nerfsrule2
July 11, 2008, 12:13 AM
Thank you very much for the post...You might take a little heat but in sharing your situation it is a safety reminder to all... Thanks

Mainsail
July 11, 2008, 12:37 PM
I understand what you are saying in your post but think of it this way.
"Treat all firearms as if they are loaded and ready to fire"
That’s pretty much the same thing. If I sub in your rule, it works out the same. If I treat all firearms as if they are loaded and ready to fire, how will I get it clean? I’m not about to ram a cleaning patch down the barrel of a gun that’s ‘loaded and ready to fire’. I’m not going to dry-fire a gun that’s ‘loaded and ready to fire’ either. So again, the rule is a lie because you’ve allowed unstated exceptions.
You get careless because you get too comfortable with the firearms you see everyday
That’s certainly one way to get careless, but by no means exclusive. People also get careless when they don’t ‘practice what [they] preach’ with regards to firearms safety. If I’m teaching my son the four rules of firearms safety and I teach him that he should “treat all firearms as if they are loaded and ready to fire” and he later observes me NOT treating the gun as if it were loaded and ready to fire, he will find disrespect for that rule as well as the other three. By clearly demonstrating that I am above the rule (again, dry-firing or showing it off to someone else) I am teaching him that the rule, and the other three rules by association, are not inviolate, and thus really not rules at all. “Do as I say not as I do” can only lead to contempt for all the rules. While that may be acceptable for minor things like “don’t use the F word”, it is entirely unacceptable for rules about dangerous or deadly equipment. “Don’t clean out the grass chute on the lawn mower” is not as good a rule as it sounds, because it’s unrealistic; you’re not going to throw the mower away if the chute becomes clogged. “Don’t clean out the grass chute on the lawnmower until you’ve verified it’s shut off and unable to start” ensures you’ll keep all your fingers and is practical enough that you’ll actually follow it.
Get into the good habits.
As Stevie-Ray points out, you’ve only recited half the rule, and half a rule is not a good habit.

TX1911fan
July 11, 2008, 12:58 PM
Mainsail, I tried to preach that same concept a year or so ago, but too many people we stuck on the good old short rule "All guns are always loaded" bit. Hope you have more success than I did.

rainbowbob
July 11, 2008, 03:04 PM
...you’ve only recited half the rule, and half a rule is not a good habit...

Mainsail:
I'm so relieved I'm not the only one who is always bothered by the recitiation of the always rule.

You have described precisely why it makes no sense and why the complete rule should be recited. Reciting a rule that everyone routinely breaks is ludicrous and breeds contempt for the rules as you pointed out.

I always handle my unloaded firarms safely because the rule (in my universe) says they are loaded until you verify - TWICE - that they are not loaded. I never short-circuit or short-change that verification process. Consequently I am able to handle an unloaded firearm as though it was unloaded without fear.

DrewH
July 11, 2008, 06:52 PM
Don't mean to bust your bubble, but there's no suck thing as a SIG 220 9mm. They come in .45 and that's it.

Hate to burst your bubble in return, but SIG made P220s in 9mm and .38 Super as well as.45. Don't think they make P220s in anything but .45 any more, but they imported the other calibers back in the day.

And thanks for the original post, always a good reminder about the safety rules.

U.S.SFC_RET
July 12, 2008, 01:51 PM
Mainsail You are right in alot of regards. The intent is exactly the same. Its no big deal so lighten up.
To me firearms are always loaded until I verify that they are unloaded. I dry fire pistols in the house because I train in the house. I clear the pistol as I was trained to do.
Read into the intent and explain the intent as to why. the rule works when you are passing a firearm from a dealer to a customer and customer to a dealer. Mistakes happen from time to time.
However you do it just respect firearms, I am sure that you respect them.

ChrisVV
July 16, 2008, 07:52 AM
First off, glad to hear no one was hurt.

Second, you were stupid, but you already know that.

Third, at least that is how I felt when I had mine...

Every time I think about it I feel sick to my stomach, this is 2 years later. I can honestly say it was the stupidest thing I have ever done.

Gotta love well meaning friends trying to be helpful around firearms. Always a bad combination from my experience.

I would like to thank you for posting your experience here. I get so frustrated everytime I tell a friend to check and see if a firearm is loaded, point it in a safe direction, I tell them it's unloaded/loaded... and I get a reply of, "I know dude" I always try to explain that I too "knew" when I blew a hole in my kitchen wall.

be safe.

1776 Rebel
July 16, 2008, 08:43 AM
Always have a backup...yes train for safety but the following is a good idea IMHO. Not that expensive either...

http://www.safedirection.com/ballisticcontainment.html

CNYCacher
July 16, 2008, 12:46 PM
Why did you pull the trigger?

abrink
August 1, 2008, 09:57 AM
Don't mean to bust your bubble, but there's no suck thing as a SIG 220 9mm. They come in .45 and that's it.

Ooopssssssss:o

My mistake. That's what i get for running my mouth before i have the right info. Now that I do i realize that at one time they were made in 9mm. :o

Drgong
August 1, 2008, 10:04 AM
I always check it when a gun goes into my hand, even if I just handled it, as you never know when a gremlin will load a gun.

BAT1
August 1, 2008, 12:48 PM
Glad no damage was done. When I hand a weapon to another person after clearing it, if the mag has ammo in it, I put the mag in my pocket. Phew!

pax
August 1, 2008, 01:21 PM
Brad ~

Thanks for posting this thread in the first place, and for regularly bumping it to the top as a reminder. It's good for all of us to remember that it can happen to anyone who becomes complacent!

Mainsail and rainbowbob ~

I believe you are both wrong. And your restatement of Rule One (...'unless you have verified...') is extremely dangerous. In fact, that restatement completely erases the entire meaning of Rule One.

To be clear, here's Rule One:

All guns are always loaded.

Several people on this thread have suggested that the rule should be, instead:

All guns are always loaded ... unless you have personally verified that it is not.

The problem with this mentality is that you've just set in place the notion that there are in fact two sets of rules: one for "loaded" guns, and another for "unloaded" guns.

Loaded guns, you think, you will treat one way. You will keep them pointed in a safe direction at all times. You will keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target. You will be sure that the target you select is a good target and has a safe backstop.

But "unloaded" guns -- guns that you personally have verified -- don't have to be treated with such caution.

That's the mindset.

And that's the mindset that gets people killed.

Rule One is actually very simple, but some folks can't wrap their brains around it. The basic meaning of Rule One is very simple:

The safety rules always apply.

They apply regardless of whether you have "checked" the chamber or not. Take a look at this old thread and note how many of the incidents involved a poorly-performed chamber check: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282550

When you decide it's okay to throw out the rest of the Four Rules because you've "checked," you are literally saying that you will NEVER make a mistake when you check. That's a lie -- as Brad and countless others have discovered, human beings make mistakes.

The purpose of the Four Rules is to prevent tragedy when a human being makes a predictable and utterly understandable human mistake. Even if you think the gun is unloaded, you STILL never point it at a human being. Even if you are intending to disassemble the gun, you STILL never put your finger on the trigger until you've picked out a good place for a bullet to land (a "target," by definition!). Even if you are intending to dry fire, you STILL select a deliberate target with a solid backstop capable of stopping the most powerful round your firearm is capable of containing.

And you do all that because human beings make mistakes. Your chamber check -- no matter how carefully performed -- might have failed. The ammo fairy might have come along and loaded your gun when you blinked. Your extractor might be broken. Whatever.

As for the question:

How you clean a loaded gun?

How you load a loaded gun?

How you thoroughly inspect (crown, rifling, etc) a loaded gun?

I take my loaded gun. I unload it. I visually inspect the chamber and magazine well. I run my finger into the chamber and into the magazine well to be sure both are empty.

And then I continue to follow the remainder of the Four Rules anyway!! -- because that is how I treat an allegedly "unloaded" gun.

Specifics?

To disassemble my Glock, I empty the gun via the procedure above, check and double check.

I remove all ammunition from the room.

Check the gun again -- without pointing it at my children, my cat, or my own favorite body parts (Rule Two).

Because I must put my finger on the trigger to disassemble the gun, I choose a target -- that is, a deliberately-selected spot which is the best place in the area for a bullet to land. Just because I think the gun is unloaded is no reason to violate Rule Three. I point the firearm at a deliberately-selected target before I ever touch the trigger.

And when I select that target, I make darn good and sure that it is something I am willing to shoot, and that the area behind it will stop a bullet without creating any further damage. (Rule Four.)

By the way, a lot of people get hung up on that word, "willing." I don't want to shoot a bucket of sand in my bedroom, or destroy my expensive Safe Directions bag. I'm just willing to risk shooting these things if I make a mistake.

After the gun is disassembled, it is no longer a gun (no longer a mechanism capable of launching a bullet), and thus I may complete all the cleaning, crown inspections, rifling checks that my little heart desires.

But I damn sure don't fool myself into believing that I am the only human being on the planet capable of checking a firearm and being sure that it is indeed unloaded. Because I am human, and human beings make mistakes.

When you rely on only ONE layer of safety (unloading the gun), all it takes is ONE mistake to cause a tragedy.

pax

Mainsail
August 1, 2008, 02:06 PM
Mainsail and rainbowbob ~

I believe you are both wrong. And your restatement of Rule One (...'unless you have verified...') is extremely dangerous. In fact, that restatement completely erases the entire meaning of Rule One.

To be clear, here's Rule One:

All guns are always loaded.
I don’t know what you’re reading, but at no point do I ever say, write, or imply that the other rules do not apply once you have verified your firearm is unloaded. I spoke of rule #1, and only rule #1. Even after one has verified their gun is unloaded, they must still follow rules 2, 3, and 4. Since the rest of your argument is based on this incorrect assumption, I see no reason to go point by point with you on it.

You do, nonetheless, erroneously state rule #1. If all guns, including your Glock, are always loaded, then it would be foolish to clean them because it’s foolish to clean a loaded gun. It’s not semantics. A rule must be inviolate or it isn’t a rule at all. The mindset that gets people killed is one that allows exceptions to the rule but doesn’t state what those exceptions are. Are you familiar with the phrase, “Give someone an inch and they’ll take a mile”? If you have arbitrary and unspecified exceptions, like dry firing, cleaning, showing, gunsmithing, demonstration of the trigger pull, etc., you are demonstrating the rule (rule #1) doesn’t always apply and you’re setting the stage for an accident. I would never attempt any of those things on a loaded gun, yet those things are sometimes desirable or necessary.

rainbowbob
August 1, 2008, 02:12 PM
Pax:

That is the most thorough and convincing treatise on "Why I own revolvers" that I have ever read. :neener:

You do make some good points (particularly for handling one of those dreaded Glocks) :what:

..."unloaded" guns -- guns that you personally have verified -- don't have to be treated with such caution...That is the mindset...

That is correct...When I have verified - TWICE - that my revolver is unloaded, and there is no ammo in the immediate vicinity, and there is nobody around "helping" me - then I am CERTAIN it has been rendered incapable of firing. I can then inspect the crown, run a brush down the barrel and chambers, dry-fire it, etc.

It is a very simple thing to verify that a revolver is empty. While aiming it in a safe direction with my finger off the trigger I open up the cylinder, visually inspect each chamber and the barrel, and run my finger over each empty chamber. Then I close it and open it again and repeat. It is now unloaded. I am certain it is unloaded. If I so much as turn my back on it - even if I'm alone - I'll check it again.

Seriously...as a revolver owner who has never owned a bottom-feeder, I guess perhaps I don't appreciate the difficulties involved. Or perhaps that is why they are so far down on my must-have list (not that I wouldn't have one).

pax
August 1, 2008, 02:33 PM
Mainsail ~

Let me try it again.

I disassemble my "unloaded" gun with exactly the same cautious and deliberate respect I would give it if I knew for sure the ammo fairy had crept into the room and magically loaded it.

In other words, when I disassemble my gun, I'm always disassembling a "loaded" gun -- because all guns are always loaded.

The safety rules always apply.

Telling people that they should treat the gun with the respect they'd give a loaded gun "unless you've checked that it's unloaded" just gives them permission to ignore the rest of the rules. (Even though you never have & never would explicitly say so, that's what people hear.)

This isn't theory. I bet every single one of us on this board has seen someone do something unbelievably unforgiveably stupid with a gun at one time or another. I encountered one person just last weekend who pointed a gun at their own left arm while packing up a range bag. Friend of mine. I pointed it out, and the person replied, "... but it's not loaded."

!!!!

If this does not make your blood run cold, I don't know what else to tell you. This person is an accident waiting for a place to happen, because someone, somewhere along the line, told them that "... unless you've checked" is the rest of Rule One. And having got that in their mind, they could not process the notion that an EMPTY, inert piece of steel could bite them.

Too bad.

By the way, if you cannot figure out how to safely "clean, admire, show, or dry-fire" when starting with a loaded gun, then you should not be doing any of these things with an allegedly "unloaded" one either. As you agree, the other rules always apply.

They apply no matter what you are doing with the gun, no matter why you are handling it, no matter what you expect to happen when you touch the trigger, no matter whether you are indoors or outdoors or on the range or in your own home ... No matter what: All the other rules always apply.

The other rules still apply simply because that's the mindset you must have when handling a gun: it must be treated with the cautious respect you would give it if you knew for sure it would go bang when you pulled the trigger. All guns (even the one you just checked) are always capable of dealing out death and dismemberment if you treat them casually.

That's the meaning of Rule One: The safety rules always apply. By putting an exception on it, "... unless you've checked," you give people permission to throw out the rules once they have checked.

And that means they are betting their very lives on NEVER making a single mistake when they do check.

pax

pax
August 1, 2008, 02:36 PM
Pax:

That is the most thorough and convincing treatise on "Why I own revolvers" that I have ever read.

:D LOL!

Actually, though ...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=253509

Revolvers can bite, too. And revolver owners are not immune to the "but I thought it was unloaded" bug.

pax

Mainsail
August 1, 2008, 03:15 PM
Pax, I think we’re closer on this than the volume of words we’ve written would suggest. For me, rule #1 is: “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.” This allows me to recognize that there are times when a gun isn’t loaded, but certainly does not exempt me from the other rules. There is a certain rhythm to this because it layers the rules to prevent a catastrophic accident in the event I’ve failed at any point. I wouldn’t dry-fire my Sig if it were loaded, but I would (and do) when it isn’t. If for some ungodly reason I screw up and fail at rule #1, I will still be following rule #2 and the surprise discharge will end up somewhere where it does little damage and absolutely no physical injuries.

I find the simplification of the rule (rule #1) to be intellectually dishonest, since nobody ever obeys the rule (rule #1) as stated in your post. This may be due to my military training\life or my flying experience. I tend to view things as black and white, not shades of gray, for certain issues. Death is a black and white issue. The rule must be inviolate. I will not, in fact cannot, intellectually grasp a rule that “every firearm is always loaded” when I know that I and others I observe, don’t and won’t hold to the rule 100% of the time. This makes it sound like a semantics issue, but for me a rule is a rule; and a rule that is open to capricious interpretation is a lie.

There is also the issue of third person perception. I have a son (17 now) who looks up to me. My words must have meaning, again, more so with issues of life and death. It would be monumentally foolish for me to teach him that ‘all guns are always loaded’ -knowing that he’s going to observe me NOT practicing that rule (dry firing for example). If I thought he was so mentally or intellectually deficient (a nice way of saying ‘too stupid’) to understand and follow the real Rule #1 without dumbing it down to ‘all guns are always loaded’, I would not allow him to handle a firearm at any time. (I feel the same way about adults who need the rule dumbed down for them.) I properly teach him ALL the rules, and that rule #1 is to treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not. (I also impose additional burdens on him, like, he does not touch any firearm without me present) By this he knows that what I say and what I do are consistent. He also knows that I accept no variations on any of the rules.

pax
August 1, 2008, 03:56 PM
For me, rule #1 is: “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.”

You've just stated that there are -- in actual practice -- TWO sets of rules. By this mode of thinking, one set of safety rules applies only to loaded guns, while another set of rules applies to "unloaded" guns.

That just seems foolish to me. Incredibly so. It implies you're willing to be the poor sucker dripping blood from a fresh wound while saying, "I know I didn't treat the gun with respect, but I thought it was unloaded!" (Or worse, it implies that you're willing to be that guy's friend and mentor who actually taught the poor sucker that "unloaded" guns can be treated with less respect than loaded ones.)

I guess what I really want to know is, what are you needing to do with your "unloaded" gun that cannot be done while giving it the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun?

Here's what cautious respect ("treating a firearm as if it is loaded") looks like, by definition:


Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

Be sure of your target and what's beyond.


These are not so much "rules" as they are the simple and inevitable outworking of an intelligent person handling a gun with the respect they'd give a loaded weapon. They are the basic definition of what it means to treat a gun as if it is loaded.

So when you say it's okay to treat an "unloaded" gun without that same respect, I wonder why. I wonder which of these obvious and necessary corollaries you wish to violate with your "unloaded" gun, and under what conditions.

pax

rainbowbob
August 1, 2008, 04:12 PM
I wonder which of these obvious and necessary corollaries you wish to violate with your "unloaded" gun, and under what conditions.

How about looking down the barrel of an unloaded revolver with a flashlight to inspect the cleaning you just performed?

Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

I'm certainly not willing to destroy myself - and I am absolutely certain I am in no danger of doing so.

Again...I'm only speaking of revolvers. You guys are convincing more than ever that I don't need a Glock. I still want one though. If/when I have one, I guess I'll re-assess this whole question.

pax
August 1, 2008, 04:25 PM
rainbowbob ~

When the cylinder is removed or blocked open on a revolver, it is not a mechanism capable of launching bullets. Thus it is not a "gun" at that point, loaded or otherwise.

pax

rainbowbob
August 1, 2008, 04:31 PM
Revolvers can bite, too. And revolver owners are not immune to the "but I thought it was unloaded" bug.

True. This animated tutorial at "The Cornered Cat" (see link) is the best I've ever seen on how to cerify that a revolver is in fact unloaded.

http://www.corneredcat.com/RunGun/loadrevo.aspx

When the cylinder is removed or blocked open on a revolver, it is not a mechanism capable of launching bullets. Thus it is not a "gun" at that point...

Well...OK...but now we really ARE slicing semantic hairs. If I asked my wife, or my 4-year-old grandson what I was holding in my hand (not that I clean my "gun" around either of them) - they would both reply..."Your gun." They would also probably both look at me funny, wondering why I would ask such an obvious question. I mean, who doesn't know a "gun" when they see one?

pax
August 1, 2008, 04:41 PM
rainbowbob ~

Sure, we're splitting hairs. Freely admitted!

Nevertheless.

A gun is a mechanism capable of launching a bullet. That's what a gun is, regardless of what your toddler grandson believes.

If you have the cylinder blocked open (not just open, but blocked open), the collection of gun parts in your hand is no more capable of launching a bullet than is the empty frame of a disassembled semi-auto. The receiver of a semi-auto might be a gun in legal parlance, but for purposes of firearms safety, it is not. Because it cannot by any conceivable turn of events actually launch a bullet.

Until it gets to that point, it is capable of launching a bullet, and must be treated with the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun.

pax

RobMoore
August 1, 2008, 04:47 PM
Here's what cautious respect looks like, by definition:

Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

Be sure of your target and what's beyond.


None of those do I violate with an unloaded gun (with the possible exception that I don't want to destroy an interior wall to my house when I'm dry firing.)

Its the "all guns are always loaded" that is an impossibility. I can't see how this argument continues.

No matter what you do with your firearm, no matter what your habits are, I bet there are things you do with an unloaded gun that you don't do with a loaded one. If you make that distinction, rule #1 (as stated above, without the qualifying addition of "unless verified otherwise") is violated.

You either allow the qualifying statement, or you break the rule.

I DARE anyone to say that the list of actions they perform with an unloaded gun matches 100% with the list of actions they perform with a loaded gun.

blackcash88
August 1, 2008, 04:56 PM
I carry a firearm and violate rule #2 all the time. It's impossible to carry and not sweep people below you if you're upstairs, pocket carry and sitting across the table from someone, standing in line carrying in a horizontal holster rig with people behind you, etc.

pax
August 1, 2008, 05:06 PM
I DARE anyone to say that the list of actions they perform with an unloaded gun matches 100% with the list of actions they perform with a loaded gun.


I have never done anything with an unloaded gun that I was not willing to risk doing with a loaded gun.

pax

rainbowbob
August 1, 2008, 05:15 PM
Its the "all guns are always loaded" that is an impossibility...

...I can't see how this argument continues.

There can be no further argument if everyone accepts Pax's definition that an unloaded gun is no longer a gun.

We can't deny that "All guns are always loaded" if we agree that "All unloaded guns are no longer guns".

But with all due respect Pax, I think re-defining terms in the middle of an argument is kind of "cheating". I think we all can agree that we must fully understand and respect the need for absolute safety all the time, every time we handle a firearm. The rest is just hair-splitting.

pax
August 1, 2008, 05:16 PM
rainbowbob ~

That is NOT what I said.

Please correct your post.

pax

rainbowbob
August 1, 2008, 05:24 PM
That is NOT what I said. Why lie about me?

There is no "with all due respect" when you lie about someone.

Yikes! :what:

I sincerely didn't intend to "lie" about you, Pax. Take it easy. Here is what you wrote in a previous post:

When the cylinder is removed or blocked open on a revolver, it is not a mechanism capable of launching bullets. Thus it is not a "gun" at that point, loaded or otherwise.

I don't know how else to interpret that other than an unloaded gun is no longer - by your definition - a gun. If I've somehow misinterpreted that, I apologize.

pax
August 1, 2008, 05:26 PM
To be clear, here is what I actually said:

A gun is a mechanism capable of launching a bullet. That's what a gun is, regardless of what your toddler grandson believes.

If you have the cylinder blocked open (not just open, but blocked open), the collection of gun parts in your hand is no more capable of launching a bullet than is the empty frame of a disassembled semi-auto. The receiver of a semi-auto* might be a gun in legal parlance, but for purposes of firearms safety, it is not. Because it cannot by any conceivable turn of events actually launch a bullet.

Until it gets to that point, it is capable of launching a bullet, and must be treated with the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun.


Disagree all you like, but please deal with what I actually said.

pax

* (You could criticize this phrase, if you wish. I meant to type 'without a slide atop it,' but that's not what I actually did type.)

BryanP
August 1, 2008, 05:27 PM
(never mind)

pax
August 1, 2008, 05:29 PM
rainbowbob ~

My apologies re the word "lie" -- I edited it out nearly immediately, but you'd apparently already read it and begun to respond. Please forgive me; it was unwarranted.

Anyway, the point was that a disassembled gun is not a "gun" for purposes of firearms safety. The equivalent of removing a semi-auto's slide is blocking open the cylinder of a revolver.

pax

Henry Bowman
August 1, 2008, 05:31 PM
But with all due respect Pax, I think re-defining terms in the middle of an argument is kind of "cheating". rainbowbob: Go look at post #91 in this thread again. That is where pax first entered the discussion and set forth her definitions. Nothing has been re-defined. You are arguing nomenclature over mechanics.

Mainsail
August 1, 2008, 06:11 PM
You've just stated that there are -- in actual practice -- TWO sets of rules.
No, one rule with two parts separated by a comma. The second part represents the only acceptable exception.
These are not so much "rules" as they are the simple and inevitable outworking of an intelligent person handling a gun with the respect they'd give a loaded weapon.
Uh, what? The discussion was about rule #1, which is a rule, not that thing you said above. It seems like you're trying to change the entire playing field in the middle of the game to support an argument with little substance.
So when you say it's okay to treat an "unloaded" gun without that same respect, I wonder why.
Except I never said any such thing and I find it puzzling that you would suggest I had. In fact, I said the exact opposite. You’re looking at it as though I would somehow treat an unloaded gun with less respect than I would a loaded one. By following the other rules respect is maintained, even when dry-firing. Break it down to simple terms. Would you ever intentionally discharge a firearm inside your house for mere practice? By the logic that ‘every firearm is always loaded’, you would have to admit that you do whenever you dry-fire.
The receiver of a semi-auto might be a gun in legal parlance, but for purposes of firearms safety, it is not. Because it cannot by any conceivable turn of events actually launch a bullet.~~~
… (You could criticize this phrase, if you wish. I meant to type 'without a slide atop it,' but that's not what I actually did type.)
Off topic, I’m going to disagree with this statement as well, even though I’m ignoring the word ‘receiver’ in your statement. If you pull the slide off your Glock with a round in the chamber (which is possible with some force) you still have a ‘gun’ and it’s still capable of firing. Push in the little round doohickey and then pull back the bar on the firing pin and let it snap forward; it should fire.
I have never done anything with an unloaded gun that I was not willing to risk doing with a loaded gun.
Again, you’re trying to change things in the middle. The rule you are supporting is; ‘All guns are always loaded” which is not the same as; “All guns are always loaded only so far as one is willing to risk that it isn’t”. That might be where we’re having the breakdown. To me a rule is inviolate, especially a rule about something deadly.

Thanks for the interesting debate and my apologies to the OP for derailing his thread.

rainbowbob
August 1, 2008, 06:11 PM
Disagree all you like, but please deal with what I actually said.

I'm sorry, Pax - but here is what you actually wrote in Post #99 - exactly as I quoted in my Post #106

When the cylinder is removed or blocked open on a revolver, it is not a mechanism capable of launching bullets. Thus it is not a "gun" at that point, loaded or otherwise.

Henry Bowman wrote:Go look at post #91 in this thread again. That is where pax first entered the discussion and set forth her definitions. Nothing has been re-defined. You are arguing nomenclature over mechanics.

You are right Henry. I did not mean to imply that Pax was being dishonest - and I regret using the term "cheating". I only meant to express my thought that defining a gun as not a gun if it is "disassembled" (or in the case of a revolver - with the cylinder blocked open) as using semantics to win an argument (i.e., "friendly discussion").

I'm afraid we're kind of chasing our tails here with edits and re-edits and clarifications, and semantics v mechanics, etc.

I'm going to go away for a little while, take a deep breath, and let the dust settle.

And I meant no offense toward any of the fine folk involved in this thread.

scrat
August 1, 2008, 06:16 PM
Ouch. on my auto loaders. I always slide them twice. I have a mark II. I would have pulled the slide back released it then pulled the slide back again. This has always been my practice. Just incase. Like in your situation. the first pull you saw an empty chamber. then released the slide loading the chamber. i would have pulled the slide back again. Exposing and releasing a bullet. That would have raised my attention fast.


Always pull the slide twice not once.


Always pull the slide twice not once



Always pull the slide twice not once.

RobMoore
August 1, 2008, 06:40 PM
6 of one, half dozen of another, but if you actually check the chamber and the magazine well twice, you don't need to worry about racking the slide (because then you're relying on the extractor to work).

ChrisVV
August 1, 2008, 06:57 PM
Every few months I read one of these. Always the same story. Always reminds me of mine.

Glad to hear no one was hurt, It happens to the best of us.

pax
August 1, 2008, 07:19 PM
You’re looking at it as though I would somehow treat an unloaded gun with less respect than I would a loaded one.

Um, that's what you said, yourself. To be precise, you wrote:

“Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not.”

(Emphasis added.)

Mainsail, when you say "until", you are saying that something different happens after that point in time. You're doing one thing, and then after that point in time, you're doing something else.

For instance:

If I said to a friend, "We can visit until it's time for my next appointment," I am in actual fact saying that after my next appointment rolls around, we are not going to visit any more.

If my boss said to me, "You are working nights until next week," he has most definitely told me that something will change in my schedule next week. He might have meant, "... after that I'll fire you." Or he might have meant, "... after that we will look at the schedule again and reconsider." Or he might have meant "... after that you will work days instead." But regardless of which it was, when he used the word UNTIL in that sentence, he clearly meant that something in my schedule of working nights would change after the point in time he referred to.

This is just the way the language works.

So when you say “Treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not," you are most definitely communicating that something changes at that point in time. The strongest and most obvious implication, impossible to avoid, is that you'd no longer be treating the firearm with the cautious respect you'd give a loaded gun.

And that's just wrong.

Dress it up however you like. But the plain sense of the rule you proposed is that you consider it safe for people to have two sets of rules: one set that applies until the gun is checked, and another set that applies after the gun is checked.

So ... what are your "unloaded gun" rules? What rules are you following with that allegedly "unloaded" gun that you are not willing to follow with a loaded one?

(For me, it's rather simple: ALL guns are ALWAYS treated with the cautious respect I'd give a loaded gun, and that includes obeying all the necessary corollaries such as not pointing the gun in stupid directions, keeping my finger off the trigger until my sights are on target, and always being certain that my target is appropriate and the area behind it able to safely stop a bullet.)

But what is it, for you? What are you doing with your "unloaded" gun that you are not willing to risk doing with a loaded one?

pax

RobMoore
August 1, 2008, 07:25 PM
I can give you a list of things I do with an unloaded gun that I don't do with a loaded one.

#1 Take it apart
#2 Clean it
#3 Hand it to someone
#4 Dry fire in my house
#5 Transport it to someplace with it not on my hip
#6 Ship it to the factory/gunsmith for work
#7 Work on it myself

Would you agree, Pax, that all of these things either require or its a good idea to make the gun unloaded?

If you draw no distinction, then you either don't do these things, or you do them with loaded guns.

Mainsail
August 1, 2008, 07:51 PM
…when you say "until", you are saying that something different happens after that point in time. You're doing one thing, and then after that point in time, you're doing something else.
Yes, exactly. That doesn’t mean there’s any loss of respect for the danger of the firearm or that I’m disregarding the other three rules. I do not treat my unloaded gun with less respect, but I DO treat it differently than I do when it’s loaded.

Like it or not Pax, you DO treat your unloaded gun very differently than you do a loaded one. You would not dry-fire a loaded gun. You would not function check a loaded gun. You would not clean a loaded gun. Yet you DO all of those things. Even though you’ve dumbed down the rule, you yourself ignore it! When you say that ‘all guns are always loaded’ you’re telling a lie because you admit to cleaning, dry-firing, and function checking your guns; all things you WOULD NOT do with a loaded gun. Can you not grasp the hypocrisy? You say one thing (all guns are always loaded) yet your actions demonstrate something else (treat every firearm as though it is loaded until you have verified it is not). This is disingenuous at best. By stating the full rule (rule #1) you maintain your integrity, to yourself and those around you.

pax
August 1, 2008, 11:45 PM
Like it or not Pax, you DO treat your unloaded gun very differently than you do a loaded one. You would not dry-fire a loaded gun. You would not function check a loaded gun. You would not clean a loaded gun. Yet you DO all of those things.

Not so.

Let me explain.

As best as I am able, I ALWAYS, in every situation in which I am handling a firearm, handle it with the understanding and expectation that it could -- and will! -- deal out death and dismemberment if I goof up or goof off. In other words, my mindset is that all guns that I handle are always loaded as I handle them. I truly believe they will bite me if I break the rules even once. I do not give myself permission to say, "Well, it's okay to break this rule or that one 'just this once', because the gun isn't loaded." I do not give myself permission to shrug off the risks when I am handling a firearm, no matter in which condition I believe the firearm to be. When I handle a gun, I strive to always do so with the expectation and understanding that it could easily deal out death or dismemberment if I become complacent.

And in the rare situations where it seems safe enough to do something with gun in hand, I ask myself, "Would I be willing to do this if I knew for damn sure the gun was loaded?" If the answer is no, I don't do it.

That's how I follow Rule One. All guns are always loaded when I handle them.

When I dryfire, I do so with the understanding and expectation that the gun could actually be loaded no matter how many times I've checked it or how certain I am that the ammunition is out of the room. That's why I am obsessive about having a safe direction and a solid backstop in my home for dry fire: because if I would definitely not be willing to do the same action with a loaded gun, I won't do it with one I merely think is unloaded. If I don't have a backstop that would stop the bullet from a loaded gun, I won't point an "unloaded" gun at it either. Because all guns are always loaded.

When I function-check the gun, I do so with the understanding and expectation that the gun could actually be loaded no matter how many times I've checked it or how certain I am that the ammunition is out of the room. That's why I don't point it at my own left hand while pulling the trigger, as this guy (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93660) did. Or at my own leg, as this poor guy (http://www.negligentdischarge.com/) did. Or at my child, as this guy (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=49380) did. I don't point the gun at my loved ones and I don't allow my favorite body parts to get in front of the muzzle of an "unloaded" gun, because there's no such thing as an "unloaded" gun. All guns are always capable of dealing out death or dismemberment if you do a stupid thing like that.

When I disassemble the gun for cleaning, I begin the disassembly process with the understanding and expectation that the gun could be loaded no matter how carefully I think I've checked it. That's why I don't point it at people I love when I put my finger on the trigger to complete the disassembly process -- as this poor guy (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190370) did. Or at my own leg, as this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0) did. It's why I keep the gun pointed at a safe backstop until it is actually disassembled to the point where it is no longer capable of launching a bullet. Because all guns are always loaded and must be treated as such.

When I am handling guns for any reason or no reason at all, I do so with the understanding and expectation that the gun could fire no matter how carefully I think I've checked it. Distraction is a bad thing, as this guy (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282404) found out. And as this guy (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1814&postcount=12) learned. A loaded gun deserves your complete respect and attention at all times.

In other words, no matter what procedures I've followed to "unload" the gun, no matter what state I believe the firearm to be in, I am always aware that I could be wrong. I could have goofed. I am not the world's first perfect person (nor even within shouting distance therefrom). Despite taking care to check with eye and hand, I could have made a mistake in my procedure. Or I could have reloaded the gun and forgotten I did so. Everyone has brain farts. And every firearm I handle is capable of dealing out death or dismemberment if I goof when I am handling it.

When you suggest throwing out Rule One, you are simultaneously suggesting that human beings can trust themselves not to make the kinds of mistakes I've highlighted above. Follow the links. Read what these guys have to say. To a man, they will tell you that they thought the gun was unloaded and that's why they they killed or crippled their loved ones, or crippled themselves, or shat their pants with a very frightening near miss. Because they allowed themselves to become complacent. Because they thought their single layer of safety -- "I checked to be sure it was unloaded" -- was enough. Because they thought it was enough to check and maybe to double check, and did not really believe in their guts that all guns are always capable of dealing out death and dismemberment if treated with even the slightest bit of disrespect.

Tragically, "But I checked ...!" is often the first thing that goes through the mind of someone who shot himself or a loved one. Too bad. Really, too bad. My heart goes out to every one of these guys. For those whose events I've highlighted, I'm really really sorry these things happened to you. Nothing can call the bullets back, nothing can erase the pain you must have felt or the embarrassment -- but THANK YOU for sharing your stories so we could all learn from them. (Of course it would not make it "worth it," but preventing others from making similar mistakes is a worthwhile endeavour of its own. So thank you.)

For those of you reading this who right now are thinking, "But it can't happen to ME" -- you're wrong. It can happen to you. It can happen to me. It can happen to anyone who allows themselves to believe, even for a decisecond, that the gun is anything other than a dangerous object which will bite if you goof.

And sometimes, even to them.

But following all four of the Four Rules obsessively, religiously, and habitually will at least prevent you from making the most monumentally stupid of all after-an-ND statements possible: "I didn't know it was loaded..."

Because all guns are always loaded.

pax

PS Done with the thread for now. Thanks for the good conversation, y'all. :cool:

akodo
August 2, 2008, 12:19 AM
Remember, part of the 4 rules is a 'What if you are wrong?' safeguard.

What if you are wrong about how thoroughly you checked it, even after checking it twice?

My personal slight alteration is "Assume all guns are always loaded" simply because some people go into logical lockup if they are told 'all guns are always loaded'

That being said, because I assume that I might some day in my life fail to fully and carefully check a gun, even if I KNOW it is unloaded, I RECOGNISE that I am NOT PEFECT and that I shall fail from time to time. I ASSUME I might be wrong, and I ASSUME the gun is loaded because of my imperfect nature. Theirfore if I am going to pull the trigger I say to myself 'If I am wrong, and this gun is loaded, where is the safest place for the bullet to hit?' and then I aim at that point, and pull the trigger.

I also slightly alter rule 3 with 'Keep your finger off the trigger until youe sights are on target and you are prepared for the firearm to fire' because this means you can be intending to dry-fire, but you also have prepared for the gun to really fire in case you were wrong about it's loaded status.

Why should you listen to me? I have been accidentally shot by someone who broke the 4 rules. I caught part of the pattern of a 410 in the feet, just the edge thank God, plus I suspect pellets bouncing back up and dirt getting kicked back up, but I had pellets imbedded in my heavy work boots, with some going all the way though the leather to break skin on my feet. A loaded gun was brought back from the firing line, so a shooter pointed it down range when we were out changing targets in an attempt to follow safety rules, and as it was a single shot exposed hammer, he needed to hold the hammer and pull the trigger and lower the hammer to open it to eject the shell, but the hammer slipped.

It's not worth it.

HUMANS ARE NOT PERFECT THIS INCLUDES YOU

Because humans are not perfect is is POSSIBLE that a gun you have checked 3 times is actually still loaded. Hence ALL the other rules still apply.

Because all humans are not perfect, it is POSSIBLE that what you generally think is a safe direction is no longer safe. That's why you actually AIM at something before putting your finger on the trigger. Had the person who shot me put his 'sights on target' he would have seen me right there. He thought simply pointing the muzzle in a safe direction was enough, and you could skip the 'finger off trigger until sights are on target' part. Humans are not perfect, and he attempted to follow #2 about not covering anything with the muzzle, but failed. That's where rule #3 should have caught him, but rule #3 is skipped.

That's we get so worked up when people say 'It is okay to skip rule X under condition Y' because we assume that 1 time out of 100,000 you will be WRONG about condition Y existing, because humans are not perfect, and that 1 time out of 100,000 may well equal death.

akodo
August 2, 2008, 12:43 AM
I can give you a list of things I do with an unloaded gun that I don't do with a loaded one.

#1 Take it apart
#2 Clean it
#3 Hand it to someone
#4 Dry fire in my house
#5 Transport it to someplace with it not on my hip
#6 Ship it to the factory/gunsmith for work
#7 Work on it myself

Yes, but you know what else?

I don't
#1 Take it apart
#2 Clean it
#3 Hand it to someone
#4 Dry fire in my house
#5 Transport it to someplace with it not on my hip
#6 Ship it to the factory/gunsmith for work
#7 Work on it myself
while pointing it at a family member. Why? because I might be wrong and it might be loaded.

Further I don't do any of those things with my finger on the trigger, or if I have to put my finger on the trigger, I pick a target I am willing to destroy, I know what is behind/around it, and I place my front sight on it and I am prepared for the gun to discharge before I touch the trigger.

RobMoore
August 2, 2008, 03:43 PM
I don't (list of things) while pointing it at a family member.

..and you think any of us do?

DesertRat
August 2, 2008, 03:53 PM
Brad,

Thank you for your story. This is a very valuable lesson for all of us, and I appreciate your taking the time to help remind us all of what can happen.

BTW, your ND is exactly the same scenario as what happened to a close friend of mine when a buddy of his did the same exact same thing.

My friend was conducting a dry fire session with a buddy of his (they were neglegent for not removing all ammo / mags from the room) and when my friend returned to the room from a restroom break and picked his Beretta back up and snapped it, as he was preparing to wrap things up for the afternoon.... "BANG"

Fortunately... nobody was hurt and the damage was limited to a wall.

Thanks.

DR

akodo
August 2, 2008, 03:58 PM
..and you think any of us do?

if the gun is unloaded, why not? At least that is what those who demand a change to rule #1 demand.

I am like you, I don't do those things with the gun pointed at people because I realize that no matter how carefully I check, and no matter how many times, I MIGHT BE WRONG, and hence I treat all guns as if they are loaded.

Mainsail
August 2, 2008, 07:33 PM
…and hence I treat all guns as if they are loaded.
Unless you've NEVER cleaned or dry-fired your guns, this is not true.

blackcash88
August 2, 2008, 07:48 PM
To all the people who treat ALL guns as loaded ALL the time, even after a physical, visual, etc inspection who practice dry fire, drawing from concealment, etc at home...

What do you point the firearm at in your house which you are willing to destroy? Do you guys REALLY have backstops inside your house? :rolleyes:

RobMoore
August 2, 2008, 07:58 PM
well, akodo, like I posted before, there are some things I do with loaded guns, some things I only do with an unloaded gun, and some things I don't do with either (pointing them at someone is one of those....unless they deserve it, then I want it to be loaded)

Brad Johnson
August 2, 2008, 08:50 PM
Guys,

Can it on the "loaded/unloaded" snit. If you want to argue legalistic BS talking points, do it somewhere else or I will ask the mods to pull every post from this thread exept the original.

Arguing terminology is what five year olds do when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar (or certain Democratic Presidents who get caught with something else in the cookie jar). It is juvenile and trite. It shows a lack of respect for the basic concept at hand, instead putting more ephasis on how it is verbally or textually rendered.

This originally being my thread I will end your discussion by stating, unequivocally, that all firearms are to be treated as if they are loaded, condition-checked or not. There. A no-frills, easy-to-understand, flat-out statement of the basic concept without a bunch of useless, time-wasting, pointless, trite, and otherwise senseless arguing over how it should be said or written. If you don't like the terminology, tough. Get over it and go do something more productive.

So, again, take it somewhere else or I will have the mods pull your posts completely out of this thread. If I can't get that done, I kill the thread myself. I will not have something this serious sullied by a couple of pissant hotheads with nothing better to do than argue a non-point.

Got it? :mad:

Brad

Mainsail
August 2, 2008, 09:10 PM
:rolleyes:

RobMoore
August 2, 2008, 10:05 PM
You can't act like your above the argument, then toss in your own opinion on it.

There are more polite ways of keeping "your" thread within the confinds of your intent than calling people childish.

Stevie-Ray
August 2, 2008, 10:35 PM
For God's sake, when a proprietor at a gun show takes out a gun from under the counter, he normally checks it, verifying that it's unloaded, and immediately hands it to you, or more often than not, lays it on the counter where it is immediately pointed at one or more people along the counter. That doesn't much sound like a loaded gun; it sounds more like an unloaded and verified unloaded gun. If you're me, you check it again and then proceed to check out the feel. Personally I aim it at the rafters to see how it "points" for me.
Point is, that gun is probably pointed at 2 or 3 people after it comes out from under the counter. Loaded? I would hope not.

When you buy a gun and take it home, do you check which way it's facing in the box and orient the box to make sure that the barrel is pointing down as you are carrying it out to your car? After all it is a loaded gun, right?

When you ship your guns back to a manufacturer for warranty work, do you mark your gun boxes telling which end the barrel is pointing, so that nobody gets in front of it? All guns are always loaded, right?

All guns are always loaded, until you verify that they are not. I might add to all interested parties in case you are showing off your latest acquisition to friends.

To remain rigid in All guns are always loaded! is preposterous. I'm sure as hell glad I don't believe that, or my Redhawk would never come clean, which, incidently, would be a firearm to any cop if the cylinder is open or not.

blackcash88
August 3, 2008, 11:17 AM
Yeah, really, Brad. Who died and made you lord of the dance, aka moderator? You made a post and that's all. This is NOT "your" thread. You do not own it. :rolleyes:

Brad Johnson
August 4, 2008, 11:55 AM
You can't act like your above the argument, then toss in your own opinion on it.

There are more polite ways of keeping "your" thread within the confinds of your intent than calling people childish.

And my point gets hammered home, with perfect example, on the first reply.

Mods ... Lock It. I will not have something this important run into the ground because a bunch of legalistic ninnies have nothing better to do than argue semantics.

Brad

Larry Ashcraft
August 4, 2008, 11:58 AM
Locked by request of thread starter.

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