Gun Shop Antics


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rbuck82
August 22, 2004, 12:51 AM
So I was in a local gun shop today and had a comical/annoying experience. First thing I heard was a guy behind the counter explaining to a customer that H&K named its pistol line "USP" because it was designed for the "U.S." market. I really badly wanted to walk up to him and explain the term "Universelle Selbstlade Pistole", but I figured it wasn't any of my business and laughed it off, a bit amused that someone who ought to be pretty knowledgable was pulling stuff out of his butt.

So then I go on down the counter and there's a guy and three teenage kids all staring open mouthed at the semi-autos in the cases. The guy, who explained he knew nothing about guns, was holding all these different ones with his teenage contingency around him. He was asking if 9mm is really that different from .40, decided he thought he wanted a .40 because it's bigger, and got suckered into thinking $800 was a spectacular deal on a Sig. He walked over to the Sigs and decided he liked those best, only to find out they didn't have one in .40 So he pointed to a .45 and said, "Oh, well here's a .45. That's pretty close to .40, right?" The guy tried to tell him there's a difference, but he said he wanted that one because it was black and he wanted a gun that was all black. Once again, I bit my tongue because it was none of my business, but I seriously doubted this guy was currently in a position to be a responsible gun owner, nor to make a good decision on what to buy.

I just thought I'd share these stories because I was really amused. I've seen stuff like this posted before, but it's so much better to see it in person! I guess this stuff happens all over the place :uhoh:

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iamhistory
August 22, 2004, 01:34 AM
I guess this stuff happens all over the place

Yes...........everywhere there's a moron who hasn't taken the time to educate himself on what the heck he's about to do.

P95Carry
August 22, 2004, 01:42 AM
It's actually hard to believe - the apparent ignorance of some who go buying. That then sometimes is compounded by gun shops who want to sell specific items ..... to reduce inventory or whatever ..... and ''recommend'' sometimes quite the wrong thing.

I almost jump for joy if someone approaches me and actually asks what to go for ..... after which there follows some educational input and finally - a chance of a more measured decision-making process.

Dionysusigma
August 22, 2004, 03:37 AM
One morning, I was with a friend at the local gun store (Outdoor America). She was/is a total novice to guns, and was in awe that day, as she had never seen so many in her life. :eek: As the day progressed, she warmed up to the idea of holding one (a Beretta 92FS Brigadier :) ). I asked the salesguy if we could venture a dry-fire, and he gave the OK. After doing so, I handed the gun back to her and asked if she'd like to do so as well. Being the smart, conscientious (sp?), and good listener that she is (memorized the four rules on the way to the shop)...

Her: "So what do I do?"

Me: *crickets chirping* "Uh, you hold it like a gun, point it away from everybody, and pull the trigger." :scrutiny:

Sales guy is sent into hysterics, as is the girl. :D

She wants one now. :rolleyes: :p

Okiecruffler
August 22, 2004, 05:51 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love the store, but I've stopped buying bullets there because it takes at least 30 minutes to get someone to hand me a box. However , some are better than others (Russ for instance). I had a newbie shooter in there just a few days ago looking at a Browning Buckmark, when she turned to me and said, "This one shoots those little bitty bullets, right?":rolleyes:

Johnson
August 22, 2004, 06:41 AM
but I seriously doubted this guy was currently in a position to be a responsible gun owner,

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm sure all of us were born with the needed skills and ability.:)

Ala Dan
August 22, 2004, 10:01 AM
At least the guy in the original thread had good taste.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

jpIII
August 22, 2004, 10:20 AM
As for the guy in the original thread....

There is nothing wrong with not knowing anything about guns.
EVERBODY has to start learning sometime. Guns just may not be his area.

When I first started looking into guns (some time ago) I was just as ignorant as the man in the first story, and probably asked some REALLY dumb questions.
Who knows... sometimes all it takes is that first purchase... followed by research about your first purchase... followed by another more informed purchase.... followed by MORE research.... you get the idea.

Thats how it happened for me.
He may get bitten by the gun bug yet... :evil:
In my experience, once you get 2 guns they somehow tend to breed and produce more.:what: :what:

Gameface
August 22, 2004, 10:22 AM
I’ve got to agree with Johnson. The first handgun I bought was a Ruger SP101 that I saw in a catalog and wanted because I liked the way it looked. I asked my dad a few weeks before I bought it if .357 was more powerful than 9mm and that I assumed it was less powerful than .45. He told me that it was more powerful than 9mm and that he thought it was more powerful than .45 as well. My eyes lit up and I wanted the SP101 more than ever.

It wasn’t the right gun and I didn’t know a thing about what I was doing getting it. But if I hadn’t gotten it then I probably wouldn’t have developed an interest in firearms. These “morons” in the gun store might be on the way to becoming huge gun enthusiasts and RKBA supporters. If they are mistreated (I’m not implying that anyone did mistreat them) in their early shooting experiences they may give up on firearms and leave the sport with a bad taste in their mouth.

Gameface

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
August 22, 2004, 10:23 AM
I was into "Shooter's Paradise" in Woodbridge VA yesterday and overheard a bit of a dialog between a salesman and a young lady looking to purchase her first handgun.

I have to say that the salesman did a great job of cautioning her to choose wisely. He pointed out the high depreciation of new guns, recommended to her that she rent a few that she was interested in before buying, pointed out that the store has classes she can take at their range, discussed the advantages and disadvantages of various handguns for a new shooter, CCW considerations, etc.

I was very favorably impressed.

Guess it just depends on the store.

BryanP
August 22, 2004, 11:05 AM
everywhere there's a moron who hasn't taken the time to educate himself on what the heck he's about to do.

Everyone starts somewhere. I am reasonably well versed in firearms at this point, but I probably wouldn't re-purchase the first handgun I bought. I thought I had done my research but I missed quite a bit. There's no substitute for experience and there's only one way to get it.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
August 22, 2004, 11:21 AM
Everyone starts somewhere. I am reasonably well versed in firearms at this point, but I probably wouldn't re-purchase the first handgun I bought. I thought I had done my research but I missed quite a bit

Very true. I paid more than I had to for my first firearm, and didn't get what I wanted.

On the other hand, I've never purchased another gun from that shop and try to warn people off from buying there. It's one of those gun stores that should have gone out of business decades ago.

Their attitude is a shame too. They're within walking distance of me and have a decent selection of firearms, all at MSR+P+

BryanP
August 22, 2004, 11:32 AM
I didn't pay too much, it just wasn't a good choice as a First Gun. Snubnosed .357 magnums rarely are. :) I had already done my research and they sold me exactly what I asked for. They even ordered it as they didn't carry it, I have no problems with them.

I bought a Taurus 617S, which is their "Compact Frame" 7-shot snubnosed .357. Too bulky for decent CCW and that's the only reason to have a 2" barrel. Even with that larger frame shooting .357 out of it is just brutal. Fortunately my wife shoots it quite accurately and loaded with .38+P Golden Sabers it is her bedside gun. This, of course, gave me the excuse to go looking for something else for me. :D

SAWBONES
August 22, 2004, 12:10 PM
The surprising thing is that people walk into gun stores in a completely naive condition, having apparently never taken the time to learn about handgun calibers, action types, brands and styles.

Who would go to an automobile dealership in similarly ignorant condition and expect to get honest, reliable and thoroughly-detailed information from a salesman?

Yowza
August 22, 2004, 12:47 PM
Who would go to an automobile dealership in similarly ignorant condition and expect to get honest, reliable and thoroughly-detailed information from a salesman? Probably thousands of people in this country every single day.

Rick

Majic
August 22, 2004, 01:26 PM
Who would go to an automobile dealership in similarly ignorant condition and expect to get honest, reliable and thoroughly-detailed information from a salesman?
Most every first time buyer.

iamhistory
August 22, 2004, 01:53 PM
Gameface......These “morons” in the gun store might be on the way to becoming huge gun enthusiasts and RKBA supporters

yes, "morons".......................whether they end up an experienced and responsible gun owner or RKBA supporter down the line or not. If they are not taking the time to talk with knowledgeable people, get training, or do at least a MINIMAL amount of research on firearms and their ownership then that's about as sensible as letting your kid get behind the wheel of your car without any training or practice time and simply giving them a license. Or, how about betting $800.00 on a sports team b/c you like their uniforms? Oh I know......let's all give our 12 year old sons and daughters high powered hunting rifles, put them in treestands and tell them to have at it during deer season without spending any time in the woods, at the range or in hunter safety class.
When was the last time your car broke down? Did you let your next door soccer mom neighbor fix it for you?

Make sense? Of course not.

Can any of these situations mentioned be remedied with trial and error and time and eventual experience? Sure.......but why do it the hard way when a little common sense (which seems like a rare commodity in society these days and unfortunately in the gun owner community as well) will relieve a lot of wasted time, money and possible danger.

Some people say ignorance is bliss. I say ignorance is unacceptable and unnecessary. Nobody is an expert at everything of course. But if you are going to start a new venture, especially gun ownership.......take some time to square yourself away.

Onmilo
August 22, 2004, 02:22 PM
"May I help you?"

"I want to buy a handgun."

"What type of handgun were you looking for?"

"I don't know, a pistol or a revolver maybe."

"Do you have a caliber in mind?
What type of shooting do you intend to do?"

"I don't know, I just want a handgun that's really cool."

Long Pause,,,,,,,,,

"Sir, you need to buy Gun Digest and get a feel for what's out here before you make a hasty decision that you may not be happy with."

"Oh I'll be happy as long as it's cool.
Hey!! Is that a Mac 10?"

And life goes on.

Edmond
August 22, 2004, 03:14 PM
What's worse are the people who go into shops and the employee asks them if they need help. The customer goes onto to describe how cool this gun was in a certain movie and if they have that gun.:rolleyes:

rbuck82
August 22, 2004, 03:20 PM
Well, the reason I brought this up in the first place is simply because this guy honestly didn't know anything about guns - period. He was ready to buy without having even fired a gun, and everyone here recommends taking a safety course, going to the range, renting different guns, doing some reading in magazines and online, and if possible, taking someone along who has some experience. Thankfully he had enough sense not to point them at people when he held them, etc...but I'm really bothered by the idea of his having a loaded .45 next to his bed.

Some of you mentioned that although he's naive and uneducated now, he could end up becoming an enthusiast/RKBA supporter. Okay, that's true, but he could also take home his new purchase and he or someone with access to his weapon could have an accident that fires up the antis in a big way. I won't ever pick on someone for being interested in guns and wanting to purchase one, but I wonder if he'll be responsible with one if he's not even responsible enough to learn some basic information before he goes in to buy one. If these gun store guys are equally as ignorant or as willing to deceive as many of them probably are, he could be led astray, shoot a caliber that's too large for him, admit defeat and never touch a gun again. Just some food for thought.

mustanger98
August 22, 2004, 06:24 PM
Well, I grew up with rifles and shotguns, but didn't get "into" handguns till I was 18. There's this gun shop here I used to do business with, but they became impossible to deal with- won't give a straight answer, use used car sale tactics, give you all kind of dumb looks, and generally insult a customer's intelligence. I don't even go there now. They made me mad for the last time early last year. Now, to get to my point, it seems they liked me a lot better before I learned enough about guns to do my own thinking and pick my choice of weapons according to what I want, need, and expect of the weapon and not whatever they want to push out the door that day.

YammyMonkey
August 22, 2004, 08:33 PM
I guess growing up around guns I had an advantage. I was looking at catalogs and magazines for my first "real" pistol long before I was old enough to posess, let along purchase it. I'm still shocked that a lot of people don't go out, find something they like, go home, dial up the internet and make 30 minutes worth of local phone calls. I figure I've saved a couple thousand dollars by shopping around and ALWAYS ended up with the gun I wanted.

It's really too bad that more people don't grow up with firearms, we'd probably have a lot less BS floating around the gunshops.

I once had a guy tell me that Kimber made the worst 1911 on the market and that EVERY 1911 had to use Wilson mags to be reliable. If I differed from either of his points I was "setting myself up to get killed." Fortunately this was after I owned a Kimber and a Springfield and had zero mag malfunctions with either companies' stock mags or the Wilsons I bought.

I think it's partly our responsibility to try and steer some of these ignorant people in the right direction. If a gun shop doesn't want an informed customer then that's definitely not a shop I want to be handing my money over to.

Don Gwinn
August 22, 2004, 10:51 PM
I was lucky enough to grow up with a father and grandparents who could teach me the fundamentals. Even at that, I've made some silly mistakes in my time.

A lot of people find themselves, at 21 or 31 or 41, trying to get into guns with no prior experience. It's not easy. I do think if I worked at a gun shop counter, I'd try to know when the next local NRA course was going to be and point new people toward that first thing. They don't have to take it first, if they still want to get a gun after that step, but it's the first thing that should be recommended.

In Illinois, of course, this is easy. You just tell them "Here, fill out this form, then I'll take a picture of you and we'll send $5.00 to the State Police so they can do a background check on you. It'll come back in about three weeks, which gives you time to take the NRA Basic Pistol Course in two weeks."

I mean, yeah, a large percentage will be shocked enough to turn around and walk away, but the ones who remain will be dedicated. :rolleyes:

fistful
August 22, 2004, 11:27 PM
I was at a sporting goods store in Austin, TX and a couple of guys were looking for "AK-47 bullets." The proper ammo was sitting on an aisle shelf right at eye level, but they apparently didn't know what they were looking for. I didn't help them, because it really bothered me that they had an AK, presumably, but didn't know the first thing about it. I figured they were better off not having any rounds. Was I wrong?

Roc_Kor
August 23, 2004, 08:20 AM
"Well does it shoot AK-47 ammo or SKS ammo?" . . . :scrutiny:
-Something I heard at a gun show on Friday.
Gotta be kidding me.

And as for the people who don't know guns (I.E. the guy in the first post with the SIG and teenagers), it takes time to learn. Heck, even I'm still learning (I'm 15.) And it's scary to ask simple (newbie) questions. I'm too intimidated to ask "What does the grain count mean on ammo? How does this affect firing and stuff?" Looking like an idiot is scary. That guy didn't know how stupid he was. Due to my fear of asking questions, I didn't figure out how a semiautomatic pistol could be Single Action until recently. (Slide moves back then cocks the hammer for each shot. I did not know that).


Oh and P.S.: Could you all answer my ammo question in a Private Message, thanks! I finally got the courage to ask. lol :o :D

Kharn
August 23, 2004, 09:04 AM
When at the store, I just snicker and hold my tongue.
At the range, I offer one suggestion as to the right way ("I'm not too sure, I thought the .17 Remington was based on the .223 case, not the .243 case") and then fall back into listening mode with some quiet snickering.

Kharn

YodaVader
August 23, 2004, 10:32 AM
When the time came to buy my first ever handgun I always knew it would be a 357 mag revolver - even as a kid growing up - to me the 357 was THE gun to own. When the time finally came the only decision I had to make was which one - Smith 66 , 686 , Colt King Cobra or Ruger GP100. My friend who held an FFL at the time sold me one for cost so I know I got a real deal on it. I chose a 6" 686.

Rarely do I actually rely on gun shop employees for information or advice - not that I am a "know it-all" - but have been around guns , fellow gun owners and have read enough over the years to know what I am looking for before I even arrive at the store.

As far as lack of product knowledge - car salesman are the worse I have encountered - I research quite a bit before heading to the lots and usually know more about the car they are selling then they do.

MrMurphy
August 23, 2004, 10:40 AM
I try and keep quiet when total idiots are behind the counter, but occasionally.. I can't. At one gun show, i heard a guy who obviously didn't know diddly about what he was selling (from talking to him earlier) try to pass off a long-barrel Cobray M11 (Mac 10 clone) as a home defense gun to someone who obviously had no clue.

I set the guy up with a pump shotgun (which he had used before, long long before and knew the basics of how to operate). Not to mention the Cobray was way overpriced.

Another time I talked to a pair of prosecuting attorneys (married) who had a cop friend recommend a 12ga loaded with magnums for the wife when the hubby was away at work in Dallas (she was finishing her degree) for home defense. Wife was 5'3 and 125lbs.

I explained the difference between a pistol/shotgun/carbine, revolver/auto and the pros and cons of each. She handled all of them, I explained stopping power and ease of use etc.

She ended up picking all by herself a Taurus Tracker .357 7-shot with Ribber grips, loaded with hot .38s. They signed up for an NRA basic pistol course and a CHL course at the same time, and for just in case before the class, I gave her a quicky on sight pictures, expected recoil, and how to load/unload the wheelgun and proper safety and gunsafety.

Last i heard she had a S&W 642 for daily carry and he had a Glock 26 I think.

Diggler
August 23, 2004, 12:14 PM
You guys are missing the point. Obviously, the guy should have come to THR and posted his newbie question,

"Which is better, the 9mm or .40?"

followed by

"Which is better, the 9mm or .45?"

".38, .39, whatever it takes."

:neener:

Correia
August 23, 2004, 02:11 PM
Actually on the USP, I know where the clerk got that from.

Originally when the USP debuted, many of the people at the SHOT show thought that it stood for United States Pistol. Including apparently some of the folks working for HK in the US. This was passed on to the firearms press and did in fact appear in some articles in various gun magazines.

The mistake came from the fact that it had controls set up with the safety in the 'American' position. And it was so different from HK's earlier obviously Euro style guns, that the belief was that it was a gun specifically for the US market. Once again, not correct, but that is what lots of dealers were told by people who were supposed to be knowledgable.

So the belief is still out there. Not really the clerks fault if he doesn't know the German abbreviation. So not really a big deal.

As for the ignorant guy. That is why I became a certified instructor.

rayra
August 23, 2004, 05:43 PM
jpIII

There is nothing wrong with not knowing anything about guns.
EVERBODY has to start learning sometime. Guns just may not be his area.
strongly disagree. the time to Learn is NOT when you are bellied up to the counter, and very likely to be solicited by The Help that either won't know what THEY are talking about, or will solicit you to buy what THEY want you to buy.

P95Carry
August 23, 2004, 05:58 PM
There is a sorta ''half-way-house'' here ... in an ideal world (Hah! What is that?!) .... there would be someone at the gun shop who could actually give good advice ...... based perhaps on being a long standing shooter, and maybe a certified instructor too. A vendor selling firearms should know something in detail about his inventory - sadly as we know, all too often far from being the case.

The other side of the coin is personal responsibility ... knowing that going to ''buy blind'' is never good ... either for the pocket or the practical side of things either. Thus ... a prospective newbie should - by some means - gain enough information to at least have some idea of what would or would not suit.

The only way to that is generally to seak advice from several people - and that'd be at a range most usually .... or from an aquaintance who shoots. A gun shop should also even be able to refer a newbie ... to speak with a known experienced shooter, prior to a purchase.

The actual ''half-way-house'' would be a mix of both. Personal research and - vendor input. Buying blind from both aspects is a potential recipe for disaster.

This is not a solution per se but ... at least a safer way to go into it.

Rebeldon
August 23, 2004, 06:50 PM
My biggest pet peave at gun stores is with the dealer who charge full taxes on a gun, even when you have a trade-in. If I'm buying a gun for $499, and I'm trading a gun for $300, I should only be charged taxes for $199.

Gameface
August 23, 2004, 09:12 PM
Many people had the opportunity to grow up around guns in some way or another. These people probably can’t remember not knowing basic firearms safety, or the right way to hold a gun, or what one caliber feels like compared to another. That is the perfect situation. These people don’t regard guns the same way as people who have never seen a gun in “real life.” Those who have only seen guns in movies have a very misguided sense of what a firearm is and how a person should handle a firearm, in terms of holding the thing and everything else that goes along with it like cleaning, storage etc. Many of these people were probably raised by anti-gun parents. They have to start somewhere. They need a reference point in order for the reality of gun ownership to make sense.

For example: I’m a terrible artist, can’t draw a circle. I’m sure there are web sites and reference materials that could help a person improve their drawing techniques, but is that going to help me build an interest in drawing? I won’t know where to begin. I won’t understand what I’m reading. It’ll all be a bunch of nonsense until I go out and buy some sort of drawing supplies and make an attempt to put something on paper or canvas. Once I’ve invested myself in drawing a little I can then go from there. I could go to the art web site and ask, “I bought X art kit, what else do I need to be a good artist?” Then people could tell me how the art kit isn’t necessarily a bad one, but they would recommend Y for a beginner. You would have hoped that the person at the art supply store would have pointed me in that direction to begin with, but they didn’t, go figure.

So all I’m saying is that we should let people make a mistake on their first gun purchase. If they loose all interest in shooting because of it, oh well. They are not going to get their feet wet in the world of firearms by searching the net. It would be great if they found this site and were able to appreciate what we’ve got going on here, but there’s just as much bad info as good out there and they aren’t going to know the difference until they have something tangible that they can judge it all against.

If said “moron” gun buyer gets the wrong thing but takes the time and effort to learn from their mistake and in the process become a knowledgeable, skilled, responsible gun owner then they are the perfect person to raise a kid who ends up not being able to remember when they learned how to shoot.

Gameface

PBIR
August 23, 2004, 09:58 PM
My biggest pet peave at gun stores is with the dealer who charge full taxes on a gun, even when you have a trade-in. If I'm buying a gun for $499, and I'm trading a gun for $300, I should only be charged taxes for $199.

1) You sell your gun to the store for $300

2) They hand you 3 $100 bills

3) You decide to buy their gun for $499

4) You hand them back their 3 $100 bills

5) You hand them an additional $199 plus the sales tax for the $499

6) You get a new gun.

When you trade, steps 2, 3, & 4 are eliminated for time's sake. You are still paying $499 for the new gun. That tax is the state's money and unfortunately must be collected by law.

Rebeldon
August 23, 2004, 10:15 PM
1) You sell your gun to the store for $300

2) They hand you 3 $100 bills

3) You decide to buy their gun for $499

4) You hand them back their 3 $100 bills

5) You hand them an additional $199 plus the sales tax for the $499

6) You get a new gun.

This is basically dishonest. Even the sleazy used car dealers don't do this. Neither should gun dealers. I'm not selling them my gun. I buying a gun with a TRADE-IN. The gun dealer I just bought my new Glock 26 from only charged me taxes on the difference, whereas another dealer I've been dealing with always wants to charge me taxes for the whole price. The dealer only does this so he can pocket the extra $20 or so. The state (in Florida) only requires him to pay taxes on the difference. So why do it the other way, if not to make just a little more money on the customer.

Majic
August 24, 2004, 08:51 AM
A point a lot of you may be missing is that these people going to the gun stores and asking questions are doing exactly what should be done. They are seeking professional advice. What advice they receive may be tainted, but that's not their fault. You research the different manufactors and all you will see is the advertising agencies game of making their product the best there ever was. Plus if you don't understand what is being said what information have you gotten? You visit gun boards and you will get varied opinions from people you have no idea of their knowledge base (just because you can talk a good game doesn't mean you are good at the game). So they go to the stores to see for themselves and then ask questions.
The person asking of the meaning of USP should ask a H&K dealer.
The person seeking the all black pistol (he may not care for the bright SS, a two tone, or the other various colors and that's fine to have a personal preference) and not knowing the difference in calibers chose a high quality pistol in the popular calibers. As to the amount he may or may not have paid, well we shouldn't be counting the pennies in his pockets,
We all have to learn and have some kind of starting point. These 2 examples seem to be starting off on the right foot.

Diggler
August 24, 2004, 09:15 AM
First, it doesn't look like he is looking at guns that are P.O.S., so if he wants to sell it later if he doesn't like it, he could still get a fair price out of it.

Plus, no matter what he buys, he just bought a new gun. At least he has one and can learn how to use it. That's the most important thing.

:cool:

And I might catch some flak for this, but I don't think that you necessarily need to go to Gunsite to be able to defend yourself with a firearm in your own home. If you're going to be carrying in public, then I think that you should take it upon yourself to get a higher level of training whether by just practice or by adding classes to the mix. But, my wife isn't that interested in shooting and with a new baby here, we don't have much time anyways. She has shot a few shots out of my Ruger P-89 and is a pretty natural decent shot. She doesn't care how it works, how to take it apart, how to clean it, etc. It is loaded to the gills, and all you have to do is pull the trigger and it goes 'BANG' every time. It's kept in a touchpad gunsafe under her side of the bed. She'll probably never need it. But at home defense engagement ranges, with 16 rounds of 9mm CorBon, I'm glad she has it available if she needs it. Point with two hands and pull the trigger until the threat isn't moving anymore. I did make sure she knew how to decock it and she knows how to safely handle a gun.

Would I prefer that she enjoyed shooting like the rest of us do? To realize that you should practice clearing jams, and reloads? Of course. I'd love for her to ask "When's the next time we're going to shoot?" but it's not something she's interested in, just as I'm not interested in some of the stuff that she likes. But I'd rather have the option available to her if the SHTF when I'm not there. I don't practice and train with a fire extinguisher in case there is a fire, but I know how they work and could get the job done if need be.

I guess the point is, if the gun is stored safely and there is a basic familiarity with the gun, then another gun in the home can never be a bad thing. At least one is there.

YodaVader
August 24, 2004, 11:32 AM
When you trade, steps 2, 3, & 4 are eliminated for time's sake. You are still paying $499 for the new gun. That tax is the state's money and unfortunately must be collected by law.

Sorry to get off the main subject - on a trade you should only pay tax on the price difference. On all the guns I ever bought with a trade in ,I only paid tax on the price difference. At least that is the way it works here in IN.

fistful
August 24, 2004, 01:41 PM
How dare all these non-gun types who don't what they're doing get to buy guns they won't take care of and shoot like we would! From now on, when an obvious newbie is at the gun store and ready to buy, he buys a gun for one of the regular customers, and we'll let him watch. Hey, when you walk into a gunstore unarmed, you take your chances. So let's welcome these new enthusiasts, and bleed them dry.

Switch to nonfiction:

A few years ago I was asking for .45 Auto cartridges at a local gunstore cum archery range. The guy behind the counter kept trying to sell me .45 Colts, even after I told him they wouldn't work. Musta beena bow-hunter.

Omni04
August 24, 2004, 03:09 PM
ha ha you stupid newbie! lol j/k... im 18, and i just started getting into these things a couple weeks ago, after several posts, phone calls, and chatting i decided on a ruger 10/22... hasn't let me down yet! (its really cool that somebody your age has the ambition and persistance to learn all those things)

Carlos Cabeza
August 24, 2004, 03:12 PM
I, being one who tries to promote responsible gun ownership and handling practices, would never give a new shooter any flak for questions they might have. I would also try to give as accurate information possible (provided my source is reliable). Of course I'm not trying to sell anything and have no interest other than introducing another lifelong shooter to the sport. I don't understand these GSC's who suggest "Yes, the S&W .500 is a fine carry piece." or whatever erroneous information is being thrown around these days. One would think that for sound advice about guns, one goes to a gun shop. That however, may not be the case at some of the larger chain type stores.

BeLikeTrey
August 24, 2004, 03:23 PM
My first purchase was a very uneducated decision based on capacity and a black gun. Sometimes this piques an interest to learn more as did my first purchase. Luckily the purchase prompted conversations with the right people. sometimes ignorant decisions, can lead to... Well, anyway, do your best to educate him. :D

FPrice
August 24, 2004, 03:26 PM
"This is basically dishonest. Even the sleazy used car dealers don't do this."

Sorry, but you are wrong there also. Sales tax is charged on the sale price of the item. Period. What you receive on the trade-in comes off your total but has no effect on the tax.

Richardson
August 24, 2004, 03:48 PM
My nephew wants a gun. He is ignorant, and will buy whatever the salesperson gets him to think is "cool".

He wanted a .50AE Desert Eagle, because his roomate has one. I asked him why he wanted it, and he said, "Just to go shooting". He's currently a lazy poor boy, so I informed him that he'd be spending around $1/round, and he sort of moped a bit, then he told me that he can't wait for the AWB to go away so he can buy a machine gun... I laughed at him and informed him that the law has nothing to do with machine guns, and that living in Illinois means that he'll never own one unless he moves out of state...

Gun-stupidity is not limited to Gun Shops...

Richardson

WhiteKnight
August 24, 2004, 04:56 PM
he told me that he can't wait for the AWB to go away so he can buy a machine gun... I laughed at him and informed him that the law has nothing to do with machine guns

I can see that Sarah Brady's campaigning truly is effective. Your friend believes actually what the antis want him to.

mustanger98
August 24, 2004, 10:24 PM
Thinking of stupidity, I was just reminded of a live one showed up at one shop around here one time with a Italian reproduction of the old Confederate Dance pistol- .44 cap&ball. The guy was hunting "pistol powder" and going through the smokeless reloading powders hunting it. I told him straight up and so did the guy running the counter what a big NO-NO that H110 was and I told him he'd blow his hand off with it. He never did understand why he needed FFFg black.:what: :uhoh: :cuss:

P95Carry
August 24, 2004, 10:35 PM
Two old expressions came to mind .....

''A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'' ...... and .....

''Ignorance is bliss''!!!!


I think in this thread's context these need reversed .... when it comes to gun buying ......

''A little knowledge is way better than none'' .... and .......

''Ignorance can be downright dangerous''!!!

YodaVader
August 25, 2004, 12:35 AM
"This is basically dishonest. Even the sleazy used car dealers don't do this."

Sorry, but you are wrong there also. Sales tax is charged on the sale price of the item. Period. What you receive on the trade-in comes off your total but has no effect on the tax.

That might be the way it is done in Mass. but it sure is not the way it is done everywhere in the US. I have traded cars a few times - the tax charged was on the trade difference - period. I just traded for a rifle a few weeks ago - rifle was $690 - my trade was worth $440. Difference was $250 - total tax charged was $15.

gtd
August 25, 2004, 12:49 AM
Majic, Gameface, and Diggler are right! Here's my point of view . . .

I have a good bit of gun experience, but I'm not a "gun enthusiast". I'm no expert, and I ask dumb questions, but I'm not gonna accidentally kill anyone out of ignorance.

I have several pieces of **** that I just love, for various reasons. One's old and ugly and doesn't shoot straight, but it's my favorite. One has a story and belonged to a beloved friend. Two are "cool". One is utilitarian. One was my first, and now it's my son's first (he's not interested). None are worthy of resale.

I bought a two-tone knock-off pistol (Bersa .380) just because I loved it. Everybody says to get a 9mm or better, but I don't know everybody. I read everybody's comments, then talked to the local gun store guy who seemed to be knowledgable and trustworthy, and his opinion trumped. (Actually, he just reinforced my opinion, and my opinion trumped!)

There's a lot of talk about the "four rules", but I think there are only two rules:

1. Never, ever, ever, point it at anything you do not want to shoot, period. And,
2. Trust your own judgment more than the next guy's.

As long as the man is safe, if buying a "big, black gun" makes him giddy, then he's made the right decision. He can learn from there.

Someday I'm gonna get a cowboy gun . . . .

cls12vg30
August 25, 2004, 12:50 PM
Gun shows are also great for hearing things that make you go :rolleyes:

At the show I went to a couple weeks ago, there was a guy about my age standing by a table inspecting a group of Hi-point pistols. Knowing a thing or two about getting armed on a tight budget, I thought I might be able to offer him some advice, so I greeted him with something creative like, "Lookin at the Hi-Points, huh?"
"Yeah," he replied, "I'm looking to upgrade." (Upgrade TO a Hi-Point? :uhoh: )
"Oh, really? What do you have now." (I knew what was coming.)
"It's a Jennings." (Dammit I hate being right.)

I made a bit of a coughing sound and said, as diplomatically as I could, "Yeah I'd want to upgrade, too." Then I continued, "Well believe me, if you're on a budget, you need to look over there at the Makarovs and other Eastern Bloc stuff. They cost no more than these Hi-Points, and they're a lot better guns, more reliable and they'll last a lot longer." I pointed him toward the vendor where I had purchased a Bulgarian Mak for $149. He headed that way, quite excited.

Daniel T
August 25, 2004, 01:03 PM
Sorry, but you are wrong there also. Sales tax is charged on the sale price of the item. Period. What you receive on the trade-in comes off your total but has no effect on the tax.

I'm gonna have to echo YodaVader here, but this is not the case in many parts of the country. In Texas, when you trade in a car, you only pay tax on the difference as well.

Think about it. If you had to pay tax on the full price, no matter what the trade-in value, then the person taking the trade-in should have to pay tax to you on it as well.

PBIR
August 25, 2004, 06:27 PM
Think about it. If you had to pay tax on the full price, no matter what the trade-in value, then the person taking the trade-in should have to pay tax to you on it as well.

Negative, a private citizen doesn't collect and remit sales tax when he sells his possessions. The tax was paid on it when it was purchased new.

FPrice
August 25, 2004, 08:05 PM
"In Texas, when you trade in a car, you only pay tax on the difference as well."

Hmmm, one more reason to move to Texas from Taxachusetts I guess.

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