[ChuckB]

I mentioned to my local gunshop owner/smith that I shoot noticeably tighter groups with defense ammo (9mm HPs) than with FMJs. He asked the weight of the bullets- the fmj's were 115 gr., and the HPs 124 gr. He said that, out of a high pressure cartridge like the 9mm, a heavier bullet will stabilize better than a light one, keeping the groups tighter at distance. I thought that I shot better with the HPs because they might be higher quality loads. I don't want to shoot only expensive defense ammo- and it's not allowed in my league shooting- but I love the increased accuracy. Any thoughts, fellow gun folk?

Chuck

[Delmar]

It all depends. I have a Beretta Vertec which likes 124 grain loads, and my buddys P-89 Ruger seems to prefer the 115's. Depends on the bullet and the weapon in my experience.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Heck, my West German SIG-SAUER P228 likes 'em both; 115 grain
and the 124 grain JHP's. It even shoots the Magnus 122 grain LFN
really well. Surprised me too!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Shmackey]

Lots more variables than that.

The most accurate factory load in .45ACP is Federal's 185 SWC match, which is a good bit lighter than standard 230 grain.

Your defense ammo is probably made with more consistent powder charges, better powder, more consistent specs all around...

[Marshall]

I think it all depends on individual guns and loads. I have Redhawk that shoots 210gr Silvertips sooooo much more accurately than 240gr soft points or JHP's.

Also, in the Semi-Auto forum go find a link from Stephan Camp on 9mm testing of various factory loads. Granted the one I am speaking of is speciafically for BHP's but I think it would give you a good general idea for the topic you posted.

[ChuckB]

Schmakey- so you're saying that defense ammo might, indeed, be more consistently manufactured? I find it hard to believe that the large cost differential between a manufacturer's FMJ's and HP's is solely due to greater cost in making the hollow point bullet.

Chuck

[Nick96]

ChuckB,

The short answer in my experience is YES. Heavier bullets tend to shoot more accurately for me. I've noticed it more with revolvers than autos - probably because I tend to shoot rounds that I know will work in the autos - and bullet weight & configuration is a secondary concern. So reliability trumps accuracy in autos for me. Also, I tend to prefer shorter barreled revolvers (like 3" & under) - and the most frequently used rounds are .38 or .357. The 158 grain .38's tend to be less prone to wander in my experience. With .357 - out of a short barrel - 125 grain & up are the most accurate.

Maybe its just years of shooting, but the 158 grain bullets in .38 - and 125 grain bullets in .357 are what I shoot best (I don't care to go much above 125 grain in a .357 out of a snubby).

Bottom line though - if the heavier bullet is more accurate and it functions well in your handgun - I'd load & carry it for serious purposes. For basic practice though - I don't see much point in burning up expensive ammo. If you can get close with the cheap stuff - it should build your confidence that you will be spot on with the "good stuff".

[mete]

Theoretically the heavier bullet is more accurate because it has a longer bearing surface. But there are other variables so your gun may do better withother weights.

[fedlaw]

"The most accurate factory load in .45ACP is Federal's 185 SWC match, which is a good bit lighter than standard 230 grain." Shmackey

Today was my first experience with this ammo. I shot 18 rds. of it versus 200 rds. of Amer. Eagle 230 gr. FMJ, with my 5" 625. Based upon this limited experience, I would have to agree that the 185 SWC is an easy to shoot, accurate cartridge.
Steve

[ChuckB]

fedlaw- I've seen you shoot. You are GOOD, man!

C.

[Standing Wolf]

I think it all depends on individual guns and loads.

Bingo. Bullet weight is only one factor of many in accuracy. Other factors include bullet shape, rifling depth, rate of twist of rifling, type of powder, brand of powder, brand of primer, cartridge crimp, et cetera. You've got to put in a great deal of reloading time to be able to isolate individual factors, and even then, there are sometimes no definite answers.

[Shmackey]

Schmakey- so you're saying that defense ammo might, indeed, be more consistently manufactured?

I sure hope so.

[fedlaw]

Thanks, ChuckB.
Coming from a top pistolero such as yourself, it means a lot.
Judging by some of the posts on some of the web sites, many people think they can shoot, the difference is that you actually can.
Steve

[JohnK]

JHP's are often more accurate than FMJ's. For utmost accuracy you need to have a prefect base on the bullet. JHPs generally have more consistant bases than FMJ which usually have exposed lead at the base.

Then of course you've also got all the things already mentioned for why one load might be more accurate than the other, higher quality, simple gun preference for one weight vs another or one load vs another.

I don't think it's nearly as straightforward and simple as the gunshop owner stated with "heavier bullets are more accurate".

[Ala Dan]

So based on the theory that the heavier bullets are more
accurate, I supposed one might determine that the W-W
147 grain "Black Talon" or the 147 grain sub-sonic ammo
of days gone by was more accurate than say Federal's
9m/m 124 grain JHP "Hydra-Shok's"; am I correct?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Blueduck]

Dan,

I use the 9mm 147 grain Rangers (newest version of old "Black Talon") and yep they have given me better accuracy in my Glocks, Berreta, Taurus and S/W 9mm's.

But I'd suspect there are certainly guns out there that like lighter bullets better.

[gbelleh]

I've never noticed much difference in accuracy with different weights. But, last time I shot my Taurus 85UL, I tried out some Federal 158 gr. +p SWCHP and all my shots were about 10 inches lower than POA at 10 yards. Then I tried some Gold Dot 125 gr +p and all shots went right to POA. Tried the 158s again and they were all low again. I don't know if weight was the major factor in this or not?

[Grump]

JHP's are often more accurate than FMJ's. For utmost accuracy you need to have a prefect base on the bullet. JHPs generally have more consistant bases than FMJ which usually have exposed lead at the base.
That is precisely why Sierra invented the 168-gr HPBT Matchking for .30-caliber rifles (it was originally called the "International" for its use in 300-meter Free Rifle events). The open tip was the unavoidable result of using jacket material through the heel of the bullet. Harder metal, precisely stamped and all that.

Similarly, the USAMTU in the late '80s or early '90s got it's best-ever .45 ACP accuracy with a load using Nosler HPs (185-gr, IIRC?), some V-V powder and a specific make of case (sorry, can't remember that or the primer). Accuracy out of assembled pistols (NOT test barrels) went to pot at 50 yards after three loadings or so on the cases--they couldn't get groups much better than 3 inches at 50 yards after that.

There's another factor, seldom encountered at 25 yards or less--heavier bullets can have less wind drift because they carry velocity better. This is especially so if compared with a lighter bullet that starts out supersonic and crosses the transsonic zone on the way to the target. Group sizes can really open up then. But if both the light and heavy are staying on the same side of 1140 fps all the way to the target, a lighter bullet sure can beat a heavier one of similar construction.

My conclusion and experience: use equal quality bullets on the same general subsonic or supersonic velocities and either the light ones or the heavier ones can be more accurate. It's hard to get better than 8 MOA pistol accuracy out of FMJs, but much easier with good HPs.

[Jim March]

Here's some more factors:

* All else being equal, the heavier slug should have more surface area contacting the barrel during it's travel down the bore. That has a number of benefits...the area of surface contact is longer, so you get less "yaw". Granted, we're talking miniscule amounts but it adds up.

* Running a hollowpoint versus roundnose can have the same effect. Say you've got two rounds both 125grain. One has a hollow point. Where is the weight going to GO? Further back where the barrel contact patch is. Not all bullet shapes cause this effect of course, but many do.

* Quality control on the best JHPs are higher. Hornady's XTP is famous as being an accurate hollowpoint because it's a very well engineered AND made slug for what it's good for (deep punch on game). Not usually the best choice on human targets but generally not too shabby if it has enough speed.

* Speer's Gold Dot involves plating copper onto lead. So the jacket thickness tends to be very uniform; this in turn means the bullet is very rotationally stable. These often rank high in the accuracy lists for any given gun, although they can't overcome a poor powder choice or a given gun's "tastes".

[Marshall]

But, last time I shot my Taurus 85UL, I tried out some Federal 158 gr. +p SWCHP and all my shots were about 10 inches lower than POA at 10 yards. Then I tried some Gold Dot 125 gr +p and all shots went right to POA. Tried the 158s again and they were all low again.

That is utterly amazing at only 10 yards. Simply take 10 regular sized steps, and shoot 10 whole inches low? That's an inch per yard. :eek:

[gbelleh]

Yeah, I was surprised by it too. I only had about 10 rounds of each to fire, so I couldn't do more extensive testing. The 158s were definitely much lower, but it could've been due to other factors (shooter related). I'll try it again from a rest next time.

[outofbattery]

Just as an example : last evening I was shooting my 9mm's for funsies and a little CCW practice . At 20 yards , WWB from the 9000S was all over the paper but when I fired the mag. of 124gr +P Golden Sabers that I was carrying in it , I stopped and wondered just how bad I was shooting as the first 4 were all exactly where I had intended to put them and due to falling light , couldn't see the holes in the black .

If I really cared about extremely tight groupings I would probably not own a half dozen different calibers and use so many different loadings among them as it's somewhat difficult to keep the feel of a gun when changing so many variables around . It can be more fun though , the SP101 is like owning 2 entirely different guns with Cowboy loads vs 158gr +P's .