Beretta CX-4 Storm


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Ala Dan
August 23, 2004, 03:38 AM
Has got to be the most werid rifle introduced in modern times.
Maybe its too "tactical looking" for me, I don't know? But one
thing is for sure, it works. And I kind'a like the idea of it using
the Beretta 92 magazines. Currently, my dealer has them on
sale for $499.99; which I understand is very close to dealers
cost?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

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355sigfan
August 23, 2004, 04:56 AM
Not really a rifle but rather a large handgun too big for a holster. Sorry I hate the concept. If I need a long gun I prefer it to be in a long gun caliber. But to each his own.
Pat

WhoKnowsWho
August 23, 2004, 07:44 AM
Considering I paid $549 and that was cheap, $499 sounds really good.

I really like how the thing feels, it fits me well and my wife likes it too, and we have a almost 1 foot height difference.

It does look tactical, but you said it, it works. With the bonus of using Beretta 92 mags, I would venture to say it is one of the best 9mm carbine pieces out there. Not needlessly long or heavy like an AR conversion would be.

Get it for $499 and if you decide you don't like it, I am sure you could sell it on the board for about the same amount.

I've only burned through 5 Winchester Value Packs through it so far. No malfunctions to report at all.

PBIR
August 23, 2004, 10:03 AM
$499 is a good price. Granted the looks are a little futuristic, but the performance will make you forget about that pretty quick. It's a lot of fun to shoot.

41mag
August 23, 2004, 10:15 AM
The one I held seemed to fit great.I can't help but think though,that that barrel is crying out for some kind of flashhider/muzzlebreak if for no other reason than to give it some "balance".
Know what I mean?

beardking
August 23, 2004, 11:01 AM
I like them a lot. I was really skeptical about them because of the looks and all, but once I shot the one my friend has, that's just about all I can think of anymore. I'm currently trying to sell a couple of my RC trucks to fund buying one. Of course, I want it in .40 S&W to go along with my new CZ 75B .40 S&W. Those are a little harder to find right now.

HankB
August 24, 2004, 12:23 PM
What does Beretta say about using "+P+" ammo in these little carbines?

Skunkabilly
August 24, 2004, 12:34 PM
Jane Jetson's home defense gun :D

MrMurphy
August 24, 2004, 12:45 PM
I want one in .45 ACP.. so far, they're not out yet.

beardking
August 24, 2004, 12:49 PM
.45 would definitely be nice, or even the same ammo that the FN P-90 is chambered for (sorry, don't know it). With a red dot scope on it I destroyed the bullseye on my first run with it when my friend let me shoot his. Of course, that helped my love for it a little.

outdoorman63
August 24, 2004, 08:33 PM
we love our storm..fun accurate shooter...fits the bill for defense and plinker...

Dbl0Kevin
August 24, 2004, 09:12 PM
What does Beretta say about using "+P+" ammo in these little carbines?

I bought some Federal +p+ 127gr hollow points for my Storm. I fired off 10 of em my last trip to the range to test them out and it ate them up flawlessly. They were still as accurate as regular FMJ......and that is to say tack-driver accurate. Big thumbs up to Beretta on the Storm! :)

Phantom Warrior
August 24, 2004, 09:15 PM
I want one, so I've done a little looking. $550-600 is pretty standard. If you get it for $499, that's pretty darn good. If you don't like it you _might_ even be able to sell it for a profit. If you are interested, it's probably worth the plunge.

Doug the Head
August 24, 2004, 11:21 PM
I've wanted one of these for so long, except I want to cut the barrel down and permanently attach a supressor to the end.

Third_Rail
August 24, 2004, 11:25 PM
Why would you do that?? If you threaded the suppressor on, you'd be able to use it on a number of firearms....

So you like Snatch, eh Doug? :D Welcome to THR.

BusMaster007
August 25, 2004, 12:32 AM
I'm waiting for the .40 to come out.
As for the concept of the firearm, what the heck...why not?
It looks like FUN --- something a lot of shooters seem to have forgotten about!

I was thinking about this CX4 the other day, as a 'niche' filler in the collection and what role it might play.
It's a 'Pistol Caliber Carbine'...hmmm.
Well, I've got the Remington XP-100R in .223, which is called a 'Long Range Pistol' --- only it's kinda like a little short bbl. bolt-action rifle without a buttstock! Helluva flash, too!
So, the CX4 sounded like a FUN GUN to have to kind of fill out the other end of the spectrum there as a long bbl. autoloading pistol WITH a buttstock.

Of course, I'm a bit twisted like that.
Pretzel Logic...
:D :evil: :neener:

Gifted
August 25, 2004, 01:12 AM
What does Beretta say about using "+P+" ammo in these little carbines? They don't recommend using much of it, as it comes with increased wear and such.

JackDRipper
August 25, 2004, 01:37 AM
Got my Storm last November and it's fun to shoot. Easily switches from right to left ejection also.
JR

P. Plainsman
August 25, 2004, 07:04 PM
When I see a pic of a Storm I think, "that gun's aesthetics aren't my style." Then I think, "I bet that gun's fun at the range."

The Beretta also seems a plausible home-defense choice for the suburbanite who would prefer the control of a long gun rather than a Glock. (I say "suburbanite" for a reason. The .357 Magnum slugs that come out of the barrel of a Marlin lever carbine will hit harder than the Storm, with minimal recoil, but their downside is the risk of overpenetration.)

JimJD
August 25, 2004, 08:38 PM
I rented one at My local range not too long ago, was a lot of fun! Pretty accurate to boot. I would not want to be a BG on the recieving end of one.

At the last gun show, I saw some for $499.99. Might pick one up next time.
If I could change some things, I'd like to have more metal in the overall construction. There were times when I thought the CX4 felt like a toy. A threaded barrel would be nice. Oh yeah, if the barrel was a bit thicker.
Besides that, it's nice.

Black Snowman
August 25, 2004, 09:11 PM
Not as ugly as the XM8 but not as refined as the P90. I'd like a P90 just because I like weird actions, and it definately qualifies. FN 2000 does to for that matter.

For plinking a pistol caliber carbine is pretty fun. I'll probably end up with a Oly Arms AR in 10mm once the AWB sunsets and magazines are available again.

jem375
August 25, 2004, 10:06 PM
:barf:

355sigfan
August 25, 2004, 10:59 PM
I bought some Federal +p+ 127gr hollow points for my Storm.
END QUOTE

I believe your mistaken. Federal does not make a 127 grain bullet for the 9mm. They do make a +p+ 124 grain Hydrashock. Winchester Makes the +p+ 127 grain Winchester Ranger load.

SNIP
It's a 'Pistol Caliber Carbine'...hmmm.
Well, I've got the Remington XP-100R in .223, which is called a 'Long Range Pistol' --- only it's kinda like a little short bbl. bolt-action rifle without a buttstock! Helluva flash, too!
So, the CX4 sounded like a FUN GUN to have to kind of fill out the other end of the spectrum there as a long bbl. autoloading pistol WITH a buttstock.
END QUOTE

Forgive me if this is offensive. But I don't care for handrifle's either. I feel that (contenders Xp100 ext) are simply tools made to exploit the longer handgun hunting seasons in some areas. These guns are shot for all intents and purposes like rifles, They have rifle accuracy. Its simply cheating in my opinion. Same goes for modern in line muzzle loaders. I believe people should have to use authentic reproduction black powder weapons to get the longer season. Same for handgun hunters. Only semi autos and revolvers need apply. No rifle caliber singleshots and bolt guns.

For me the Storm serves no purpose and decieves many people. Some people have listed this gun as a good defense weapon. While it could serve that role. Its woefully inadiquate for the job compared to rifle caliber semi autos in 223. The storm actually poses more of an over penetration risk and it has far less stopping power. A 12 gauge shotgun is a better choice than the Storm in this role as well. With the storm you basically have a handgun that is easy to hit with. While its better than a pistol for home defense because of hit probability its a poor choice compared to a good semi auto 223 or a 12 gauge shotgun.

For plinking I suppose its fine. But so is a 1022 and they are far cheaper to shoot. Its too weak for anything but small game hunting. Again a 22 rifle will do that role just fine.

I use to have a Marlin Camp Carbine that I got for a good price in 45 acp. It was a well made weapon and worked as it was designed. But it served no purpose. It was not ideal for defense compared to the 223's and shotguns I owned. It was too weak to hunt with. It was more expensive to plink with than my 22's. In the end I had to ask why? Thats the same question I have for the storm.

But hey its a free country buy what makes you happy. And again this post is not meant to piss anyone off. Its just my opinion on the subject.
Pat

Dbl0Kevin
August 25, 2004, 11:54 PM
I believe your mistaken. Federal does not make a 127 grain bullet for the 9mm. They do make a +p+ 124 grain Hydrashock. Winchester Makes the +p+ 127 grain Winchester Ranger load.

I stand corrected, I do indeed have the 124grain Hydrashocks.

Also while you make some pretty good points about the usefulness of the Storm I just have one question for you. If the 9mm Carbine is so useless why is the 9mm MP5 hands down the most popular and widely used submachine gun in Law Enforcement and Military special operations and entry teams?

355sigfan
August 26, 2004, 12:31 AM
Also while you make some pretty good points about the usefulness of the Storm I just have one question for you. If the 9mm Carbine is so useless why is the 9mm MP5 hands down the most popular and widely used submachine gun in Law Enforcement and Military special operations and entry teams?
END QUOTE

The MP5 is a fine weapon but it too suffers from being a pistol caliber long gun. In all reality while they were extreemly popular at one time. Their popularity is fading. Just as the 223 semi auto carbine is replacing the patrol shotgun. The ultra compact select fire 223 carbins like the Colt M4 Commando and the HK 53 are replacing submachine guns like the MP5 with our nations top Special operation teams. There are still people using sub guns but their numbers are getting less and less. Colt only makes its sub gun on special runs and has talked about dropping it altogether. When I was at basic Swat operators course a few months ago I saw that Anchorage's team was using HK53's to replace their MP5's.
Pat

jame
August 26, 2004, 12:32 AM
(Here we go again...........)

I've had a Storm, I have an AR. As I stated in my previous staements, the Storm serves it's purpose just fine, and I miss it terribly. I will own another. Soon. I've had to pass up shots at feral animals and downed deer because, where I live the AR can be "to much". Too loud, too far, too powerful, depending on the situation. I'll be buying another Storm.

Last fall, when the fields were open, the Storm was "not enough". Not enough reach, not enough power. I'm glad I have my AR.





Fortunately, in my state, I'm allowed to own more than one rifle.
I feel sorry for those that can only own one. :scrutiny:

(Sarcasm, fellas.....it's sarcasm....)

Dbl0Kevin
August 26, 2004, 12:45 AM
I must admit that even though I do own a Storm I find myself thinking more and more along the lines of 355sigfan. When it comes down to grabbing either my M4 or my Storm from the safe as a home defense gun I really have a hard time picking up the Storm.

The only advantages that I can see for the Storm is the fact that it is lighter, shorter, and can carry a higher ammo load for the same weight. While the lighter and shorter aspect can be good for indoor use, the ammo load really does not help unless you're going on a long term mission or the like.

The AR on the other hand has less recoil, less prone to overpenetration through numerous walls, yet has the ability to punch through armor if needed, plus it's only about 4 inches longer than the Storm and still very manueverable indoors.

So while I got the Storm for the "cool factor" and cause I wanted a pistol caliber carbine for my collection, I too am having a hard time justifying just when I'd actually prefer it over my M4. :(

jame
August 26, 2004, 01:09 AM
Dbl0Kevin, kindly check your mail....

355sigfan
August 26, 2004, 01:17 AM
I will own another. Soon. I've had to pass up shots at feral animals and downed deer because, where I live the AR can be "to much". Too loud, too far, too powerful, depending on the situation
END QUOTE

You lost me here. Too loud and too powerfull. As was stated the 223 has less penetration risks than the storm. I admit its louder but firing a gun even a 9mm storm will get an equal amount of attention. Your either justified and legal or not. What it sounds like you may need is a suppressed firearm if noise is an issue. Where do you live? Maybe I am missing something but I am not understanding your point.
Pat

natedog
August 26, 2004, 03:57 AM
I'm pretty sure the 5.56mm and 9mm weigh the same. The 5.56mm has more powder and a larger case, but the 9mm has a heavier bullet. I can't provide my source, sorry, can't find it.

ROAshooter
August 26, 2004, 08:49 AM
Every time this topic comes up on this board...I am at a loss for the hatred for this gun......and we all know who I am talking about.
I can only speak for myself.......but my shooting is for pleasure-sport..and the Storm does it quite well.
Sooooooo in saying "if ya cant beat them join them"....I wish to say..since the ergonomics of the glock series of handguns....is so bizarre...the geometry so unexceptable......."I hate them"
Has nothing to do with the fact that they are without doubt...one of the worlds finest automatics....used by more lawenforcement agencies around the world.than any other type of handgun.."I still hate them"
Goes without saying..Glocks are well made...reliable....in many configurations..calibers....many to fullfill the wants and desires of the masses.......since the shape bothers me......."I hate them"
And since my opinion on this board means squat.......I can honestly say.......If you dont respect my opinion.....YOUR ALL WRONG!!!!!

lmao.....those of us who enjoy the CX4 Storm.do enjoy them.even if the are worthless to those of "YOU" who know better....
Thank you for letting me rant."END of Quote"

jame
August 26, 2004, 10:27 AM
"You lost me here. Too loud and too powerfull. As was stated the 223 has less penetration risks than the storm. I admit its louder but firing a gun even a 9mm storm will get an equal amount of attention. Your either justified and legal or not. What it sounds like you may need is a suppressed firearm if noise is an issue. Where do you live? Maybe I am missing something but I am not understanding your point.
Pat"

I guess I can understand your confusion with me if you have no reason to know my environment, as I havn't fully explained. I'll try the best I can:
I live in a very heavily populated rural environment. Close enough that the shot from a .223 at night to legally dispatch road wounded deer will awaken, if not upset the neighbors. Loud gunshots at night are not the most relaxing things.
As far as the penetration issue goes, it's not about penetration, as much as it is trajectory. A 9mm bullet fired horizontally from the shoulder will drop a lot faster than the .223. 5000 ft from a .223 may be dificult, but not impossible. A 9mm may not be impossible, but it's pretty close to impossible. But that won't do when the fields are open and coyotes are sunning on the snow capped terraces and shots are slowly and deliberately taken.
Does that help?

ROAshooter
August 26, 2004, 11:04 PM
And it comes to mind....the "Glock" had its share or doubters....."only real guns are made of steel..give a 1911-bhp any day of the week"....was the cry years a go........."who wants a girlyman plastic pistol with a wrong shaped grip with no manual saftey"..........so if for no other reason.if those who choose to "hate" the cx4....then I must "HATE" the glock......seems so dumb doesnt it?????

jem375
August 26, 2004, 11:47 PM
why not just buy a crossbow, that is really quiet.....Pat, don't try to think along his lines, all of a sudden the 9MM makes no noise at all but the 223 does.....

jame
August 26, 2004, 11:58 PM
I shoot an AK shorty, jem. Ever done any range time next to one?


Try again.

Editted to add:

I think I need to remind some short memory folks that in my state I'm allowed to own more than one rifle. It's really kinda nice. :scrutiny:

jem375
August 27, 2004, 12:18 AM
yes I have been close to shortys at the range...have an AK and 2 SKS's...maybe you should try to sit next to my 375JDJ or Savage Striker in 308 when they go off with the short barrels and muzzle breaks, guaranteed to put the shorty AK to shame....

jame
August 27, 2004, 01:06 AM
I thought that the comparison was between the 9mm Storm and a Bushy AK shorty. How is a 375JDL relevant to this conversation? I understood it to be a conversation about the merits and deficiencies of the Storm.

Not "Which rifle is the loudest?"

Again?

355sigfan
August 27, 2004, 04:56 AM
And it comes to mind....the "Glock" had its share or doubters....."only real guns are made of steel..give a 1911-bhp any day of the week"....was the cry years a go........."who wants a girlyman plastic pistol with a wrong shaped grip with no manual saftey"..........so if for no other reason.if those who choose to "hate" the cx4....then I must "HATE" the glock......seems so dumb doesnt it?????

END QUOTE

This does not really make sence. You can hate a particular pistol like the said glock without hating the weapon class. I am sure your not saying you hate handguns. I am saying I hate the concept. I have no opinion on the Storm itself. It may be a fine pistol caliber carbine. I am sure its a good gun. Beretta made it. Their a good company. I just don't agree with the concept.

Jame I respect you but I don't agree with your reasoning. The fact that a 223 carries further in open air should be of little concern if your following the 4 safety rules. The last one about being aware of your target as well as the surrondings and beyond. You should not take a shot your likely to miss. You should always take shots where you have a good back stop. That 9mm bullet may not go as far as a 223 but it will carry a lot farther than most people realize.

As far as noise. I also disagree. If your justified in shooting the report between a 9mm and a 223 is not going to matter. At least I can't think of a situation where it would matter. There is a gun range about 2 miles from my home I can hear rifles/handguns and shotguns being fired. I can t see how one report is more offensive than another.

But in the end were all adults and as you said you can own as many rifles as you want. ( although the storm is not a rifle, its a pistol caliber carbine)

Enjoy your guns. I will enjoy mine. I did not mean to flame anyone here.
Take care and stay safe.
Pat

ROAshooter
August 27, 2004, 08:06 AM
Pat you finally get it...........it makes no "sence"...since the point of the post of "hating" the glock was sarcasum directed at YOU for your constant degradation of firearms others on this board enjoy shooting. I dont "hate" glocks....man get a grip....I respect everyones right to own-shoot-enjoy any type of firearm...END QUOTE

And to add...yes everyone is entitled to have an opinon....about a particular firearm....or "class" of firearms........

PBIR
August 27, 2004, 08:25 AM
It's funny...there is a thread going on at this very forum about "gun snobbery" with all sorts chiming in about how wrong it is. And then you read a thread like this where people are engaging in the very same thing here at The High Road. Particularly with a few brands that 99% of people who actually own one love. What is this BS?

MP5
August 27, 2004, 08:28 AM
The only advantages that I can see for the Storm is the fact that it is lighter, shorter, and can carry a higher ammo load for the same weight.

One more: where I live in a fairly dense urban/suburban area, the only practical places to shoot locally are indoor ranges, and most of them only allow weapons that fire pistol-caliber ammo. So, when it comes to getting in practice time here, a Storm would be vastly preferable to a rifle-caliber weapon.

jame
August 27, 2004, 09:23 AM
Thanks, Pat.

Goodwill to you as well.

Dbl0Kevin
August 27, 2004, 10:09 AM
One more: where I live in a fairly dense urban/suburban area, the only practical places to shoot locally are indoor ranges, and most of them only allow weapons that fire pistol-caliber ammo. So, when it comes to getting in practice time here, a Storm would be vastly preferable to a rifle-caliber weapon.

The indoor range by me lets all pistol and rifle calibers be shot. I've shot my AR-15 there before and while I was there someone was poppin off with an M1 Garand. Talk about givin me a headache!!!

355sigfan
August 27, 2004, 03:36 PM
Pat you finally get it...........it makes no "sence"...since the point of the post of "hating" the glock was sarcasum directed at YOU for your constant degradation of firearms others on this board enjoy shooting. I dont "hate" glocks....man get a grip....I respect everyones right to own-shoot-enjoy any type of firearm...END QUOTE

And to add...yes everyone is entitled to have an opinon....about a particular firearm....or "class" of firearms........
END QUOTE

I always understood your argument. I just simply disagree with it. I also understood your post about glocks. I don't think you understood my argument, because you did not respond to any single point I made.

If your offended by my opinions of certain firearms you own and enjoy I am sorry. But I thought this board was here to share our thoughts and experiences in an open and honest fashion. As for getting a grip I am pretty sure I have solid one. I don't like pistol caliber carbines as a class for reasons listed earlier in the thread. Its not a subjective standard like you applied in your little hypothetical on Glocks. It was an objective standard applied to all pistol caliber carbines as a whole. Do you care to argue those points? Or are you simply going to be upset and pout that I said bad things about your faviorate gun. We should be able to agree to disagree without peoples feelings getting hurt. Me and Jame disagree yet we stayed civil. Thats how these threads should be. Stay safe and enjoy what ever guns you like.
Pat

jem375
August 27, 2004, 11:24 PM
well actually Jame, they are both pistols with 14-15" barrels.....since the 7.62x39MM is actually not as powerful as a 30-30, I was kind of wondering where you were going with the noise situation you mentioned earlier..

P95Carry
August 27, 2004, 11:49 PM
I was not sure for a long time re the look ... seemed ''wierd'' .. however having tried one I changed my mind ... because once ''in hand'' the ergonomics take over and - it is a pleasure to shoot.

Had one a while now and .. like it a lot ... tho my Camp 9 is still a fun piece. The CX-4 is tho very totable and light weight .. a gun I could imagine having along when rambling, camping etc. Rather over priced IMO but - not sorry i got one.

Since the pic - I have taken off the 40mm POS red dot and replaced it with a half ways adequate Bushnell ''Trophy'' red dot .. much better! :)


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/storm-s.jpg

ROAshooter
August 28, 2004, 12:11 AM
Pat..responding to your "points"...is pointless.....thus a waste of time......
since you do go to great lengths to explain to everyone on this board your opinons.......and how much you will disagree with others

goon
August 28, 2004, 12:38 AM
I don't own a Storm but I did get to shoot on at a local range. I found it to be a cool little rifle that would be well suited to plinking, home defense, and teaching new shooters. I also think that it uses standard M-92 magazines which is anothe point if you already have the handgun and the mags. I did have problems shooting it offhand because it was just too light for me but that is just a preference thing. I need a little weight to steady my aim.
Anyhow, I have nothing against it. In a world where finances were not a concern I would have one. But alas, I live in a world where my guns have to do more than just one thing so I have to stick with my rifle calibers.
But if one serves your purpose, have at it. See you at the range. I'll spot you a 20 rounder from my FAL if you spot me a mag for your Storm. :D

jame
August 28, 2004, 03:12 AM
"well actually Jame, they are both pistols with 14-15" barrels.....since the 7.62x39MM is actually not as powerful as a 30-30, I was kind of wondering where you were going with the noise situation you mentioned earlier.."

You're losing me here.........

The Bushmaster AK Shorty is a .223; 14.5" barrel with an AK style muzzle brake. Where do you get 7.62x39???

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 03:45 AM
cx4
Pat..responding to your "points"...is pointless.....thus a waste of time......
since you do go to great lengths to explain to everyone on this board your opinons.......and how much you will disagree with others

END QUOTE

Well actually its only pointless if you have no way to defend your position. The only thing pointless was your post. All it did was attack me for no apparant reason. You have no points of your own at least you did not post them. I love to engage in good debates with people because it allows both parties to learn something. But its hard to learn when someone gets touchy and emotional. Lighten up and enjoy life.
Pat

jem375
August 28, 2004, 11:04 AM
OK...you're right....some ar15 manufacturers do make 7.62x39MM caliber available on their rifles......had to reread your post about an AK shorty even though am wondering why they would call it that just because of the muzzle break.....

ROAshooter
August 28, 2004, 05:59 PM
Pat .you are just too easy..throw you some bait and you take it hook .line ...and sinker

Warner
August 28, 2004, 09:55 PM
ROAshooter - An opinion......
Your personal jabs at our members is getting tedious. Your lower knowledge and experience levels are becoming obvious. If you wish to learn here, please do so. We stand ready to welcome you.

However, in this thread alone, Pat/355sigfan has offered a lot to you, both on the "merits" of this type of firearm, and even a few hints on how to conduct yourself among other members here.

You have not yet appeared to appreciate his help.

On this Beretta;
I too have absolutely no use for this expensive (to buy and shoot) plinker. I hope that those that put their faith in it, aren't caught flat-footed when they need (even basic) rifle capabilities.

P95Carry
August 28, 2004, 10:04 PM
I hope that those that put their faith in it, aren't caught flat-footed when they need (even basic) rifle capabilities. Fear not Warner .. this ol' CX-4 shooter classifies it almost entirely as a fun gun.:)

Domino
August 28, 2004, 10:59 PM
The only advantages that I can see for the Storm is the fact that it is lighter, shorter, and can carry a higher ammo load for the same weight. While the lighter and shorter aspect can be good for indoor use, the ammo load really does not help unless you're going on a long term mission or the like.

From my understanding 9mm Lugar and .223 Remington weigh approximately the same. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:06 PM
Well I just weight my 127 grain Ranger T +p+ and the loaded round weighed 196 grains. A 55 grain Federal soft point loaded round weighted 179 grains. The 9mm is actually heavier who would have thought.
Pat

P95Carry
August 28, 2004, 11:07 PM
From my understanding 9mm Lugar and .223 Remington weigh approximately the same. Domino - yes indeed ... nominally both will be approx 180 grains ... give or take.

P95Carry
August 28, 2004, 11:11 PM
sigfan ... I expect I checked with a 9mm 124 ... and yours was a 147 perhaps and powder weights and brass different weights too .. still - close!

My sample .223 was a 55 grn FMJ WWB.

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:18 PM
Actually I carry 127 grain rangers not the 147 grain version. But its close enough. Lots of variables. Like you said both are the same approximate weight.
Pat

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 11:24 PM
Well I actually mis-spoke when I said weight. What I meant to get across was the size of the ammo load. A 30 round 9mm mag is a lot thinner than a 30 round 5.56 mag. That led me to figure it would be easier to carry more 9mm mags then 5.56. It's not a very big difference, but one nonetheless.

As I was thinking of this more there was only one other advantage I could think of for the 9mm carbine, but that it really makes no difference to the average person. The fact that when a silenced weapon is prefered the 9mm would lose less energy and velocity than a 5.56 would in order to be sub-sonic. Granted this is a very limited application and doesn't really apply to just about any private citizen.

So now I'm left with a 9mm Carbine that I spent $600 bucks on and is really not all that useful for defensive purposes since I have my M4.......but damn if i can bring myself to get rid of the thing cause it's just so damn cool looking and fun to shoot! :neener:

Domino
August 28, 2004, 11:26 PM
Regardless of weight the .223 offers a substantial gain in energy over the 9mm. Isn't it like 1250 ftlbs compared to about 350 ftlbs? But then again you run into over penetration and lack of takedown power when compared. I would grab my 12 gauge shotgun over a rifle in either caliber in a "home invasion" situation myself.

P.S. I think if you weigh 9mm 115g FMJ to .223 55g FMJ you will get the approximate weight of 180 grains.

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:27 PM
Sub guns are better supressed in general I agree. I would prefer a subgun in 45 acp for this purpose. Because I feel the 9mm is at its best with supersonic loads. While the 45 acp in my opinion is at its best with sub sonic 230 grain loads.
Pat

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 11:29 PM
I would grab my 12 gauge shotgun over a rifle in either caliber in a "home invasion" situation myself.

This is where I must respectfully disagree. As I stated in another thread I really do not like a shotgun for defensive situations at all. If I have to take a shot in defense of myself or someone else I want ONE bullet coming out and I want to know where it's going. In a hectic situation that is a defensive shooting I don't want to have to worry about a stray pellet of buckshot going off somewhere and hitting someone else.

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:30 PM
Domino I think you would be surprised to know that the 223 is less likely to overpenetrate your home than most pistol rounds including the 9mm. I have some data on it if your interested. You might also be surprized to know that the stopping power of a 223 with soft points compares very favorably a 12 gauge with buck shot. In fact I would say that a good 223 soft point is more effective than buck shot. Now slugs have the clear edge in tissue destruction.
Pat

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 11:33 PM
On another note I was in Barnes and Noble last night and happened to pick up one of the gun magazines.....can't remember which one it was. As I was leafing through there was an article on penetration of different rounds through walls. Of the rounds tested 9mm only went through 8 walls while just about every load of .223 went through 10 or 11. This doesn't really give the power of the round after it passes through, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

Domino
August 28, 2004, 11:35 PM
While the 45 acp in my opinion is at its best with sub sonic 230 grain loads.
Agreed!
I would love to get a silenced De Lisle carbines seen HERE (http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm) . I'm sure the CX4 is a great carbine but with my recent idea to get a Glock 19 I might just go with a Sub 2000 that takes G 19 mags. The De Lisle would be a great companion to a 1911, plus you gotta check out the new De Lislie 2000 (http://www.valkyriearms.com/d2000.htm) !

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:44 PM
Forgive the length of this post but I think you will find the information interesting.

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun CalibersThe .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability. Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics. Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls. The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building: A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position. B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1. C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.) D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.) All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files. The following results were obtained: 1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning. 2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets. 3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles. 4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through. The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight! Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round]. Testing Medium Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration. A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation. Weapons Used CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel. Glock M22, cal .40S&W. Remington 870, 12 ga. Ammunition Used Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP. Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP. Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug. Procedure All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building. Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W* wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall. * CCI Gold Dot. Summary The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition. The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin. When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5". Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot. Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two. ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:46 PM
again sorry for lenth I don't know how to attack word files.

.223 for CQB
by R.K. Taubert
About the author: A recently retired FBI Agent with over 20 years experience in SWAT and Special Operations, he conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while in the Bureau.
Reprinted and edited with permission.
Close Quarter Battle Reputation
Several interesting but inconclusive articles examining the feasibility of the .223 caliber, or 5.56x45mm round, for CQB events, such as hostage rescue and narcotics raids, have recently been featured in a variety of firearms and police publications. However, for more than 20 years, conventional law enforcement wisdom generally held that the .223 in any configuration was a deeply penetrating round and, therefore, totally unsuited for CQB missions in the urban environment. Partly because of this erroneous, but long held perception, and other tactical factors, the pistol caliber submachine gun (SMG) eventually emerged as the primary shoulder "entry" weapon for the police and military SWAT teams.
Although new revelations about the .223 are beginning to slowly circulate throughout the Special Operations community, a number of law enforcement agencies are in the process of acquiring the next generation of "advanced" SMGs in 10mm and .40 S&W calibers. Could they and the public be better served by a .223 caliber weapons system and at less expense? Please read on and judge for yourself.
FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.
These tests were conducted by the FBI’s Firearms Training Unit (FTU), at the request of the Bureau Tactical and Special Operations personnel. Located at the FBI academy in Quantico, VA, this is the same unit with the encouragement of forensic pathologist Dr. Martin Fackler and other ballistic experts, that dramatically advanced the testing of modern handgun rounds to estimate their wounding effectiveness and potential lethality. Ultimately, this entity confirmed that permanent crush cavities, or "wound-channels," and deep penetration were the primary factors for handgun-fired projectiles. The FTU further determined that under various target engagement circumstances, a depth of penetration in soft tissue of between 12 to 18 inches was required for a handgun bullet to be effective.
Equipment Employed / Rounds Tested
For these series of tests the following firearms, ammunition and equipment were employed:

· Sealed, match grade test barrel to determine 25 yard, 10-shot group accuracy and 20-round velocity potential.
· 20" barreled, M16A1 rifle to stabilize and test rounds ranging from 40 to 55 grains in weight.
· 20" barreled, M16A2 rifle to stabilize and test rounds ranging from 62 to 69 grains in weight.
· Oehler Model 85 chronograph.
· Ransom type rifle rest, with laser bore sighting.
· Numerous blocks of Kind and Knox 250-A, 10% gelatin, to simulate living tissue.
· Federal’s 40-grain "Blitz" hollow point, 55-grain soft point and 69-grain hollow point; 9mm 147-grain Hydra-Shok, 10mm and .40 S&W 180-grain, jacketed hollow points.
· Winchester’s 55- and 62-grain full metal case, NTO-military spec. rounds.

As indicated, both rifles were fired from a mechanical rest. Ten-shot groups and 20-round velocity tests were fired for each round. 13 penetration tests were conducted. 95 rounds were fired for each type of round tested. A total of 760 rounds were tested and recorded for this project.
Test Protocol
Tests 1-6:
Bare gelatin, heavy clothing, automobile sheet metal, wallboard, plywood, and vehicle windshield safety glass, were shot a distance of 10 feet from the muzzle. The vehicle safety glass was set at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizontal, with the line of bore of the rifle/SMG offset 15 degrees to the side resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass, which simulates a shot directed at the driver of a car closely missing the shooter. Furthermore, the gelatin was covered with light clothing and set back 18 inches behind the glass. All gelatin blocks, with the exception of the body armor barrier, were set 18 inches behind each solid obstacle shot.
Tests 7-13:
All involved shots through heavy clothing, safety glass and bare gelatin at 50 to 100 yards, concluding with internal walls, external walls and body armor at 10 feet. Test eight however, involved safety glass at 20 yards, shot dead-on, without the 15 degree offset, to simulate a shot at a car’s driver bearing down on the shooter.
For the connivance of the reader, test results are summarized in the following chart. Please note that the data displayed represents the average penetration of these rounds as measured in 10% ballistic gelatin (see tables 1 and 2).
Considering that the average person’s torso is 9 inches thick, front to back, all the .223 rounds ranging in weight from 55 to 69 grains appear to be adequate performers on soft targets where frontal shots are involved. Although the majority of target engagements are frontal, profile shots can and do occur. A .223 round that is required to pass through an arm before entering the rib cage mat, upon striking bone, fragment, and while possibly shattering the appendage, would most likely not be successful in producing a sufficiently deep body cavity wound to be decisive. In this, as with any CQB encounter, "controlled pairs," or rapid-repeat hits may be required to ensure target neutralization.
Defeating Ballistic Garments
Soft body armor appears to have little effect on the calibers ability to penetrate and actually seemed to enhance the 40-grain Blitz’s depth of penetration in soft tissue.
From a law enforcement standpoint, the ability of the .223 caliber round to defeat soft body armor, military ballistic helmets and many ballistic shields is a "double-edged sword." The criminal use of body armor is rare, but increasing. Possessing the ability to penetrate and adversary’s protective vest is obviously desirable. However, this round will also defeat law enforcement vests, so great care must be exercised in laying out and observing fields of fire in training and during operations. With this concern over potential fratricide in mind, voices have been raised in some quarters regarding this bilateral tactical attribute. A number of veteran officers strongly embrace The traditional concept that a department’s duty rounds should not exceed the capabilities of their vests. Arguably, this is a sound approach for any law enforcement agency to take for its non-tactical response personnel. However, SWAT, because of its specialized missions, may be a different matter and this later concern, while important, should not dominate the rationale supporting weapons selection by highly competent tactical units.
Although it has been reported that less that 1% of all serious crimes involve long guns and less than 8% of long gun related crimes involve rifles, law enforcement is being confronted more frequently by criminals with weapons and munitions that are capable of defeating all but the heaviest ballistic protection. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting Section indicates, for example, that rifles were involved in 13% of the assaults on police officers during 1992. The incident a Waco, Texas, is a recent example of this problem. For forced entry teams, the need for higher levels of ballistic protection is essential.
For safe training of specialized law enforcement teams, the development of a lead-free, low penetration, short-range 5.56mm/.223 caliber training round that will (1) not penetrate ballistic vests and helmets, (2) destroy "shooting house" walls, (3) crater, or perforate steel-reactive targets, is extremely important. Fortunately, it appears that private industry is responding to these demands and such munitions are currently being developed.
Vehicle Interaction
With the exception of the full metal case and the 69-grain JHP rounds, it appears inadvisable to select lighter weight, soft or hollow point versions of this caliber when automobiles are likely to be engaged during planned raids and arrests. Penetration against automobile windshield safety glass is generally very poor and is only slightly better on sheet steel. Although terrorists from the insurgent New Peoples’ Army were able to blast their way through an armored limousine in the Philippines and murder a highly regarded U.S. military official with concentrated M-16 rifle fire, the SMG-fired pistol round demonstrates at least a theoretical, if not practical, edge against such hardened targets.
Interestingly, while penetration on auto glass and sheet steel is marginal, .223 projectiles will readily perforate and breach mild steel such as standard pepper poppers, that pistol rounds will only slightly dimple. However, very little of the .223’s mass is retained, so after defeating mild steel, significant wound potential is severely diminished upon exit.
Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.
As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.
.223 Wounding Characteristics
Ballisticians and Forensic professionals familiar with gunshot injuries generally agree that high velocity projectiles of the .223 genre produce wounds in soft tissue out of proportion to their calibers, i.e. bullet diameter. This phenomenon is primarily attributed to the synergistic effects of temporary stretch cavity (as opposed to the relatively lower velocity stretching which typifies most pistol rounds) and bullet fragmentation on living tissue.
Distinguished forensic pathologist Dr. Martin L. Fackler, observed when he was conducting wound research for the U.S. Army several years ago ("Wounding Patterns of Military Rifles," International Defense Review, Volume 22, January, 1989), that in tissue simulants such as ballistic gelatin, , the 55-grain, M-193 military bullet lost stability, yawed (turned sideways) 90 degrees, flattened and broke at the cannelure (groove around the bullet into which the cartridge case is crimped) after penetrating about four to five inches. The forward portion of the bullet generally remained in one piece, accounting for 60% of its originally weight. The rear, or base portion of the bullet, broke into numerous fragments that may also penetrate tissue up to a depth of three inches. Dr. Fackler also noted that a relatively large stretch cavity also occurred, violently stretching and weakening tissue surrounding the primary wound channel and its effect was augmented by tissue perforation and further weakening by numerous fragments. An enlarged permanent cavity significantly larger than the bullet diameter resulted by severing and detaching tissue pieces. However, as the range increases, the degree of bullet fragmentation and temporary cavitation decreases because terminal velocity diminishes. At 100 meters, Fackler observed that the bullet, upon penetrating tissue, breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments. However, beyond 200 meters, it no longer looses its integrity, although flattening continues to somewhat occur out to 400 meters.
In his study, Fackler remarked that in abdominal shots, "There will be increased tissue disruption (beyond the bullet diameter wound channel) from the synergistic effect of the temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation. Instead of observing a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestines, we typically find a void left by missing tissue up to three inches in diameter." However, "unless a extremity (peripheral hit) is sufficiently thick like a thigh, or the bullet does not strike bone, the round may pass through an arm for instance, causing little damage from a puncture type wound."
Regarding NATO’s 62-grain FMC M-855 (SS109) .223 caliber round Dr. Fackler observed that the bullet produces a wound profile similar to the M-193’s, particularly where abdominal or thigh wounds were involved. Other sources indicate this bullet, with a [steel] core penetrator, exhibits 10% greater fragmentation and retains its ability to fragment at slightly longer ranges than the 55-grain military bullet. [Keep in mind that the M-855 round, because of its steel core, has a length comparable to a 73-grain lead core bullet, and should be shot out of longer barrels (18+ inches) with tighter twists in order to retain good pratical accuracy],
Hollow and soft point bullets in this caliber can be expected to upset and fragment much sooner and more consistently that full metal case (FMC) bullets. In light of this more consistent performance, Fackler recommends hollow points over "ball" ammunition for police use, providing the HP bullet penetrates deep enough to disrupt something vital. However, in his candid opinion the most effective round currently available for law enforcement operations is the 64-grain, Winchester-Western, pointed soft point, currently referred to as "Power Point". This bullet has a heavier jacket than those tested by the FBI, resists hyper-fragmentation, penetrates well and "expands like a .30 caliber rifle round." Subsequent FBI tests of this round fired from Colt’s 14.5-inch barreled Mk-IV carbine bore this out and bullet expansion was "impressive."
Dr. Fackler also advised that the synergistic effects of fragmentation and high velocity temporary cavitation cannot be scientifically measured in gelatin because that medium is

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:48 PM
last one that is a big article.

too elastic. More Accurate results can be obtained by examination of fresh animal tissue soon after it is shot.
Range Limitations
Federal’s Blitz round, because of its very high velocity, low weight and frangible construction, demonstrated extremely poor overall penetration in the FBI tests. If it is considered for CQB use, it should be fired from ultra-short barreled weapons, such as Heckler & Koch’s, 8.85-inch barreled HK-53. Shorter barrels would bleed off excessive velocity to reliably fragment and produce good temporary stretch cavities at close range. Because of this velocity loss, the maximum effective range on personnel would most likely be 100 yards or less. To ensure that .223 caliber bullets perform as previously described by Dr. Fackler, it appears that a minimum target striking velocity of 2,500 feet per second (fps) is required. Bullets over 50 grains in weight may not accelerate to this critical velocity in barrels less than 10 to 11 inches in length. Tactical teams should therefore carefully select the appropriate barrel length for their CQB weapon, to ensure that the round they employ will deliver minimum terminal ballistic velocities at the ranges desired and balance it against maneuverability requirements [Also remember that dr. fackler’s data is based on the FMJ ball ammo results and that hollow point ammunition will be as effective with lower velocities]. "Bull pup" configured carbines, such as the Steyr AUG, enjoy a distinct advantage here, because they retain long barrel lengths with relatively compact overall dimensions and are as flexible as an SMG in confined areas. In fact, a Steyr AUG compares favorably to H&K’s MP5-SD SMG in overall length and with a 16-inch barrel, is only an inch longer overall than a 14-inch barreled Remington 870 raid shotgun.
[At this point, Mr. Taubert’s article goes into extreme range shooting and barrel length. His suggestion is to have a barrel at least 14-18 inches long for CQB use as this allows for useful terminal ballistics at around 150-200 yards with 60+ grain bullets. I disagree with Mr. Taubert’s point of view for the simple fact that we are discussing Close Quarters firearms, and not long range sniping firearms. In these instances, a barrel length of 6-10 inches is practical for entry team use as it allows for greater maneuverability and acceptable ballistic performance with 55-grain hollow point ammunition. Also, a lot of Mr. Taubert’s information is based off of Dr. Fackler’s research using FMJ ammunition. Most of my information is based upon real-world shootings and actual testing of commercial ammunition in short barreled firearms designed for this application.]
A recent review of major U.S. ammunition manufacturers’ pricing indicates that commercially loaded .223 ammunition is slightly less expensive than similarly configured premium hollow point pistol ammunition. With millions of rounds of surplus military .223 ammunition possibly available to law enforcement, because of numerous base closures and through low cost channels, training with this caliber could be highly cost effective.
The .223 carbine is able to satisfy both close and intermediate range requirements and presents a good argument for eliminating the necessity for the law enforcement SMG. This one-gun concept will not only stretch departmental funds in this respect and reduce training requirements, but in some cases the difference in price between a single-fire carbine and a select-fire SMG often amounts to several hundreds of dollars. The need for full automatic fire with the M-16 carbine is debatable and two single-fire versions can often be purchased by police agencies for the cost of one top-of-the-line SMG. [This is a fact that I have been preaching for a long time. Another fact that Mr. Taubert does not touch on is that the M-16/AR-15 family of rifles use a split receiver system that allows the rapid exchange of differently configured uppers. This allows one officer to carry a 16" CAR-15 in is patrol vehicle as his secondary firearm, and a 6" upper receiver unit in his trunk for tactical entry use]
As a result of contemporary research, such as that conducted by the first FBI’s Wound Ballistic Workshop, some law enforcement agencies have expressed the opinion that concerns about pistol bullet overpenetration were exaggerated. They cite the toughness and flexibility of the human skin in resisting bullet exit and the fact that police officers historically missed their intended targets most of the time in actual shootings. While poor hit ratios and overpenetration may not be critical to some for individual gun battles that occur in the street, these marksmanship realities can become real planning and safety concerns when establishing fields of fire during raids, hostage rescues and other tactical operations.
Typically, these operations involve confined areas, where officers occupy positions in close proximity to each other. In close combat operations, every round expended must be accounted for. It is imperative that that rounds fired hit their intended targets and not pass through them to endanger other officers and innocent bystanders. If misses occur, it is desirable that once the stray round strikes a solid object, it expends its energy and disintegrates into relatively harmless pieces. If deep, barrier penetration is necessary, special ammunition or projectiles [or weapons] possessing this attribute can be selected.
Shootout Results
It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cities’ police tactical unit executed a search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a "biker residence." The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr AUG .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with 28 Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because the team leaders anticipated shots "out to 25 yards."
The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While the other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201-pound subject, high on "speed", suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between the adversaries was approximately 20 feet. With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded, "Police, put your hands up," while clearing the Steyr’s safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.
When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: · Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. · The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.
What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type o terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
Although this is only one incident and could be an aberration, police tactical teams require this type of terminal ballistic performance to enhance their safety and survival particularly during CQB engagements, when criminals most often enjoy a positional and action-versus-reaction time advantage.
The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.
Observations and experience indicate that high velocity rifle bullets generally produce more serious wounds in tissue than pistol bullets, regardless of range.
Violent temporary cavitation, in conjunction with bullet yaw and fragmentation, are essential wounding components for high velocity rifle projectiles.
As range and bullet stability increases and velocity decreases, rifle caliber wound severity decreases and penetration increases.
Where soft target penetration requirements exist and overpenetration concerns are prevalent, police should employ hollow point bullets in this caliber.
Full metal case or heavier soft point bullets may be more appropriate for hard target penetration in this caliber.
The .223 and the current carbine systems available for it are highly versatile and well suited for urban as well as rural operations. However, because of enhanced terminal ballistic performance, rifles are recommended if targets are expected to be engaged beyond 200 meters. [The .223 round itself should not be used in law enforcement applications at any ranges outside of 300 yards/meters. Long distance shots should be left to highly trained sniper units using medium caliber centerfire rifle ammunition. e.g. .308/7.62 NATO. Also, the majority of police sniper shots occur within 100 yards/meters.]
The ability to train with one shoulder weapon and caliber for both CQB and open air options simplifies logistics and training, makes training more effective and is cost effective. [Again, one upper for general, secondary weapon usage, and one upper for CQB]
Under current pricing, police agencies can realize significant savings by purchasing single-fire carbines instead of select-fire machine guns.
Because of the "political" considerations and perhaps the concern over the possibility of more serious injuries caused by errant "friendly fire," the highly versatile and powerful .223 carbine may not be a suitable CQB firearm for some departments. However, if the above factors are not involved, the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
[It has been a recently growing trend to see law enforcement departments exchanging their issue shotguns for the police carbine in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. And many departments have found that these carbines do not serve their needs as they expected. However, they are fearful to switch, or in many cases purchase, .223 carbines because "they will go through 10 people and 3 city blocks before they stop!" As you can see, this is not the case, and is in fact, completely the opposite. I hope that this article helps to clear all false truths and misnomers about this very versatile and serviceable cartridge.]
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

355sigfan
August 28, 2004, 11:56 PM
Looks like an interesting concept Domino. But I would prefer a semi auto to a bolt gun.
Pat

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 12:06 AM
Those are some interesting articles Pat, it definately backs up my belief that the 5.56 is an excellent cartridge for police work and private home defense.

Had a question for you....have you ever tried out and of the Hornady TAP .223 rounds? I ordered 20 rounds of the 40 grain variety to keep around the house. From what I read they are supposed to have 100% fragmentation and very low penetration indoors. If only they weren't so expensive! I'm wondering if they'll still be able to penetrate body armor if needed though.

Domino
August 29, 2004, 12:07 AM
Looks like an interesting concept Domino. But I would prefer a semi auto to a bolt gun.
NO doubt, just as a plinker ;)

VERY Interesting article. I read through it quite a bit and I would have never expected such results (i'll have to read the rest of it later a little tired :o ) I might just use some 62g SP in my M17 for defense! I recently tried the Barnaul 62g SP and had some interesting results, all chrono'd over 3000 fps and maintained great 100 yard accuracy (around 1"). Haven't tested it's ballistic performance but I imagine it's pretty much like most of that Russian stuff, mediocre. Thanks again for the article Pat! I do hope your CX4 give you years of good service. If it doesn't i'm sure you'll let us know. :neener: Just kidding.

355sigfan
August 29, 2004, 12:12 AM
I have tried tap its not bad. Only problem we had with it was in the cold the plastic tips would break of in the mags causing some weird malfunctions. But if your in an area that does not get -30 below you should be ok.
I think the 40 grainers are too much of a good thing. From what I have read they have very shallow penetration in gelatin something aroud 4 to 6 inches. I could be wrong. If I am I appoligize. I would stick with at least the 60 grain version. I prefer the 69 grian Federal match loads. The penetrate 12.5 inches in gelatin and totally fragment. They are also a very accurate load. I believe even the 40 grain tap will penetrate body armor simply because of its high initial energy. They have made fragible ammo that can penetrate vests so long as its going fast enough.
Pat

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 12:19 AM
I was kinda worried about that, but I figured better safe then sorry when it comes to overpenetration. I guess the next purchase will probably be some of the higher weight TAP rounds.

ROAshooter
August 29, 2004, 01:34 AM
To Warner..and any others I may have offended with my "tedious" jabs at members.....which... not meaning to correct you ...are only directed at 355sigfan/Pat. To everyone else MY sincerest apologies!!!
But lets be frank for just one moment and review how "helpfull" and full of "merit".Pat/355sigfan has been.
A review of Pats past posts.,,,,,show a distinctive "obsessive-compulsive" need to "correct-disagree-show contempt- for the topic at hand. His desire to "debate" a topic......will typically degenerate into a lecture..........complete with pages......and I mean PAGES of facts that he feels necessary to justify his position. And and it does not take long to find a thread in which many others have show their displeasure in the tone and topic presented by Pat/355sigfan.......
AS is the case once again in the simple discussion of the CX4......Pat has gone to extremes to "point" out how much he dislikes this platform.......as he has done in such great depth in the past!!
To which I obviously find extremely "TEDIOUS"!!!!!!!!!!!

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 01:48 AM
ROAshooter:
A review of Pats past posts.,,,,,show a distinctive "obsessive-compulsive" need to "correct-disagree-show contempt- for the topic at hand.

355sigfan:
Sub guns are better supressed in general I agree

That being said I personally enjoyed the conversation and found it very informative. I think the posting of the articles was in response to the article I mentioned that I read. If you don't want to read the long articles no one is making you. Last time I checked backing up something you believe in with a good number of facts is a good thing. I found the articles posted to be informative and did not think that the tone of any post was combative or holier than thou as you seem to be implying.

That's my .02 YMMV.

Warner
August 29, 2004, 03:22 AM
Pardon all, for brief my OT here.

ROA shooter said:
“His desire to "debate" a topic......will typically degenerate into a lecture..........complete with pages......and I mean PAGES of facts that he feels necessary to justify his position.”

“Pat has gone to extremes to "point" out how much he dislikes this platform.......as he has done in such great depth in the past!! To which I obviously find extremely "TEDIOUS"!!!!!!!!!!!”

A suggestion.
With such a demanding set of needs, wants and desires, starting up a new forum might be the way to go. This new forum could then be chock full of politically correct, feel-good advice for those that can’t fully handle the facts as they are, and presented in a way that accommodates shorter attention spans.

But alas, I guess there is still no real way to prevent some of those “been there – done that” folks from occassionally stopping by the new place to gore someone’s Royal Ox ...... when necessary.


ROA shooter said:
“A review of Pats past posts.,,,,,show a …….. contempt- for the topic at hand.”

Still no foul here, 'cause it’s my belief that some things actually are contemptible. :neener:

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