price check, m1-2 carbine


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ID_shooting
August 23, 2004, 05:33 PM
the shop has a 30 carbine they just got in, 1945 manufacture I dont remember the company but it started with an "I", labled a M2, all matching except the trigger assembly and the operating rod, those are both out of an M1. The barrel was threaded for a muzzle break. I am not looking for n historical piece but one I can go plinking with and not worry if I get scratch.

Blueing is about 70%, no rust or breakage, says property of US govt, and has what looks like the Springfield Armoury emblem on the stock.

What is this worth?
Honestly, what should I offer them?

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EOD Guy
August 23, 2004, 05:39 PM
If the receiver is stamped M2, what you appear to have is an unregistered machine gun, possession of which is a felony if not properly registered under the NFA. It should be worth around 10 years.

Dead
August 23, 2004, 05:46 PM
Ah I yearn for the days when one could buy a machine gun in America from your local hardware store, or through the mail. :D

ID_shooting
August 23, 2004, 05:55 PM
Is it still a machinegun with the M1 trigger group?

EOD Guy
August 23, 2004, 06:15 PM
Once a machine gun, always a machine gun. The receiver is classified as a machine gun even without any other parts.

ID_shooting
August 23, 2004, 06:19 PM
Is it still a machinegun with the M1 trigger group?

ID_shooting
August 23, 2004, 06:34 PM
OK, so, If I misread that, I highly doubt the shop wold knowingly break the law, and it actually is an M1, what is a fair price?

thatguy
August 23, 2004, 06:46 PM
Military contract M1s (as noted, the M2 is full auto capable and illegal) were made by several manufacturers. Inland is the only "I" that comes to mind right off the bat. Values can vary greating depending on maker and condition. A decent one (80%) would likely run in the $400-$600 range. More for a Winchester. More as condition improves.

Trebor
August 23, 2004, 07:47 PM
If it's marked "M-2," it doesn't matter what parts are in it, it's a machine gun. If it is a M-2, don't buy it and tell the shop what they have so they can have it destroyed or turn it over to the ATF. It's not worth them losing their license over it.

ID_shooting
August 23, 2004, 07:52 PM
Hi trebor, yes, I figured that much out. I havn't been able to recheck yet. I think it may have said M2 but I very well could be wrong. The are a highly repected place and the manager is a retired small-town police chief. If there is a chance for them to do somthing illegal, they will not do it.

Ed
August 23, 2004, 08:31 PM
It could be a legal M2 that if he wants to pay for plus the $200 he can own. Though I don't know why someone would have a legal one and convert it to a M1:confused:

Anyways stranger things have happened.

Kenneth Lew
August 24, 2004, 11:05 AM
Before jumping to conclusions, research what part of M1 carbines are actually/can be the registered part (ie. receiver, operating rod, trigger group).

M2 Carbine
August 24, 2004, 02:48 PM
Many M1 Carbines have M2 parts.

Stock
Bolt
Trigger housing
Hammer
Sear
Slide
etc, etc

I saw a new Kahr recently that had a used M2 bolt.

I don't know about M2 being stamped on the GI M2 Carbines.

If you have several, about 6 M2 parts, you have a (illegal) machine gun even if you have no Carbine.

Many M2 parts are found in GI M1's but the parts you won't find installed is the Selector and Spring or the Disconnector. They have no use in an M1.

If the Carbine you are looking at has a selector it is an M2 (legal or otherwise)

BTW, This one is legal.:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Carbinesidemountselector.jpg

Southern Raider
August 24, 2004, 04:09 PM
Before jumping to conclusions, research what part of M1 carbines are actually/can be the registered part (ie. receiver, operating rod, trigger group).
Yes, this has been done. A carbine receiver marked "M2" was presumed to have left the factory in a full auto configuration, and is thus the receiver of a machinegun per 26USC5845. It is legally a machinegun even if no other parts are present.

Yes, yes, I know it is physically no different than the M1 carbine, but what I have just described is the ATF's ruling. A number of these were refitted with M1 parts and reimported in recent years, and from what I understand, they are confiscated and destroyed when found.

M2 Carbine
August 24, 2004, 04:29 PM
ID_shooting,

You might tell that dealer what Southern Raider said.
You might be doing him a favor.


Years ago I saw a UZI (semi) at a gun show with the short MG barrel.

I asked the dealer (private seller I think) if he had the 16 inch barrel. NO.

I said, you know this is a rifle and must have a 16 inch barrel.

He got defensive and said it's OK, I bought it from a XXXX policeman.

I told him that makes no difference, the Feds get extra brownie points for locking up policeman.
If some LEO walks by here that knows the law you will go to jail.

I told him, if nothing else just take the barrel out of the gun and put it on the other end of the table.

I came by later and he still had the barrel in the gun.:what:

I don't know if he made it through the day.

Johnny Guest
August 24, 2004, 10:39 PM
M2 Carbine, agreed as to the item technically being a machine gun, regardless of whether or not it would fire fully automagically.

In the gun show incident you describe - - Did you happen to check and see that it was a "live" barrel? When the semiauto Uzis were first offered, they included a “display barrel” - - No chamber, no bore, just a blind hole that looked like a muzzle. They called it a "display barrel."

Ed - - You are correct only if it was already registered as a transferable gun, prior to the ban (1986??) Unfortunately, since that time, ATF has not allowed registration of any additional machine guns.

ID_shooting - - Don't think I've ever seen a US carbine, M1 or M2, with a threaded muzzle. The govt made a clamp-on muzzle brake, as well as a flash hider, for the carbines - - Both used a clamp around the front sight, complete with a wing nut. Tacky-looking accessory, but authentic.

And, you say it was marked "property of US govt" - - Where was this marking located?

I was in a gun shop earlier this year when a young man brought in his carbine, wanting to buy a gun case. I asked if I could look, and when I checked for the manufacturer's stamp, I saw the "M2" on it. There was no selector, and the hammer did not fall on lockup with the trigger held back.

He proudly explained that his "uncle" had gotten it while in the service, and he had inherited it. I told him as gently as possible that he had a machine gun on his hands, and that I hoped his uncle had registered it at some point. Bystanders were giving him conflicting advice about what to do with it - - Hide it, torch it, sink it in the lake, turn it in, and so forth. "You're going to the pen if they catch you with it, boy!" He was confused and getting worried. The shop manager said that I was a deputy sheriff, and to listen to what I had to say.

I told him he could look up the number for BATF and call them, to see if it was registered. I also gave him a business card and could call me later and I'd check on it for him, if he wanted me to do so. I also 'splained that, if the gun was NOT registered, he'd end up losing it. He left, with his gun, and I never heard from him. I hope he did the right thing.

Oh, yeah - - I plumb forgot to ask that young feller his name . . . .


Best,
Johnny

M2 Carbine
August 24, 2004, 11:43 PM
No Johnny, it was a "live" barrel.
I had and still have a B Model UZI with the display and 16 inch barrel.

That's what I looked at first to see if it was a display barrel.
I thought I'd tell him (there was no one around) he could get in trouble with that short barrel installed.
But he didn't listen.

ID_shooting
August 25, 2004, 07:42 AM
Well, closure on the story. It is a sad sad day. I watched a fine example of a 30 carbine die on the table.

Turns out the gun was a M2 and a "war trophy." They figured out that it was never registered and called the ATF for advice. Well, they stripped it for the useable parts and submitted the reciever to the plasma torch :(

Oh well, the authentics are just too expensive for just a shooter so I will probably order up a Kahr.

BTW Johnny, You are correct, the barrel was threded for an aftermarket muzzlebreak some years ago, kinda why I was looking forward to getting it at a good price.

Trebor
August 25, 2004, 07:52 AM
Bummer, man. Sounds like everbody did the right thing. Still a bummer though.

dfariswheel
August 25, 2004, 03:42 PM
This points up what was SUPPOSED to be a basic principle of American law:
"The citizen MUST be given a chance to comply with the law".

In this case it's a crime to possess an automatic weapon that isn't registered and had the Federal tax payed on it.

Under the "Chance to comply", a citizen should be allowed to register an auto weapon.

In fact, the ATF says that if you haven't registered it already, you can't register it.
In other words, "we will not allow you to comply with the law".

This is especially bad now that many of the WWII and Korea vets are dying.
Their families are opening old footlockers and closets and finding all sorts of war trophies brought home 50 years ago.

At a minimum, these should be allowed to be permanently deactivated into a DEWAT, and the family should be able to keep them.

I have no real problem with taxing and registering automatic weapons, but I do have a problem when government says "You can't have an unregistered firearm, but we won't LET you register it".

Leatherneck
August 30, 2004, 01:02 PM
but we won't LET you register it" Wasn't the prohibition from Congress? i.e., "Don't spend a nickle of this money we're giving you to register evil MGs"? Seems to me I remember that from a few years ago...:confused:

TC
TFL Survivor

Biff
August 31, 2004, 12:27 AM
Found this at:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter41.txt


21032
June 11, 1970

Assistant Regional Commissioner (ATF)
Southwest Region

Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Division
National Office CP:AT:EO:[]

Okla, LI 3134 - [ ] - Removal of Firearm from machine gun
SWR SI 998 [ ] category

This refers to your Information Transmittal of February 16,
1969, with attachments, requesting a ruling concerning the status
under the National Firearms Act of a U.S. Carbine, caliber .30 M1,
serial number [ ], converted to an M2 capable of full automatic
fire and now restored to its original condition as an M1 capable of
only semiautomatic fire.

The U.S. Carbine, caliber .30M1 is a semiautomatic rifle and
is the basic model from which the M1A1, M2 and M3 models were
developed. Therefore, the U.S. Carbine, caliber .30 M1 did not
evolve as a machine gun. Accordingly, an M1 Carbine, as marked,
converted from semiautomatic fire to full automatic fire, may be
removed from the classification of a machine gun by the removal and
destruction of the conversion parts. We believe this position is
consistent with the provision for the removal of a short-barreled
shotgun from the purview of the Act by replacement of the short
barrel with one over 18 inches and for the removal from the purview
of the Act of a semiautomatic pistol which was modified to fire
full automatic and which is returned to semiautomatic fire only, by
replacement of the modified part or parts. We reaffirm our
position that a weapon originally designed as a machine gun remains
a machine gun and may not be removed from the purview of the Act.

In accordance with the above, the information given by [ ] of
my staff to [ ] is correct and [ ] may be advised that in view
of the fact that he has abandoned the full automatic parts from his
carbine to the [ ] branch office, we have removed his firearm
from the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.


[ ] Director

Attachments

6/10/70

EOD Guy
August 31, 2004, 09:09 AM
That'a fine for an M1 converted to an M2 and then converted back to an M1 configuration. It won't work for a receiver originally manufactured as an M2. It doesn't matter that there is no physical difference between the two other than the marking.

M2 Carbine
August 31, 2004, 11:44 AM
What EOD Guy said.

As an example,
My M2 is a "registered machine gun trigger housing assembly".

When I put it in an M1, the M1 becomes an M2 as long as the "registered parts kit" is in that rifle.

The rifle becomes an M1 again when I remove the M2 assembly.

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