[Marko Kloos]

Religious freedom apparently does not extend to non-Christians in the Union County school system....

Union schools hit with religion-related lawsuit

Action claims student was beaten, harassed for
being different
*
By JENNIFER LAWSON, lawson@knews.com
February 14, 2003
*
India Tracy came to expect being sent to the
principal's office even though she was a well-
behaved, straight-A student.
*
But the Union County youngster knew she'd
probably be the only student with "no" written
on the permission slip to attend a tent revival
during school hours. When she declined to
portray Mary in a Christmas play, she also was
sent to the principal's office.
*
India and her parents, Greg and Sarajane Tracy,
allege other students taunted her, beat her and
ridiculed her religion for years. Fed up with
the treatment, her parents filed a federal
lawsuit on her behalf Thursday.
*
The lawsuit claims the Union County school
system violated India's civil rights by
promoting and endorsing religious activities,
denied her right to freely exercise her religion
and failed to protect her from harassment and
physical and verbal abuse.
*
The first time the Tracys declined to allow
their daughter to attend the two-hour,
fundamental Christian services held over three
days was in 1999, when she was in the fourth
grade. The family had bought 11 acres in Union
County because they thought the area was
beautiful.
*
"The principal had called me to the office
because mine was the only slip that said no,"
said India, now 14. "He asked me why I didn't
want to go. He asked my religion. I told him I
didn't want to talk about it and for him to call
my parents."
*
Sarajane Tracy told the principal that she also
did not want to discuss religion because she
didn't think it belonged in school, she said.
The family could be anything - Buddhist, Jewish
or Islamic - and it shouldn't matter, she said.
The family follows the ancient religious
tradition of Paganism, which embraces kinship
with nature, positive morality and acknowledges
both the female and male side of Deity,
according to the Pagan Federation.
*
India was the only student left in her class
during the Area Wide Crusade in April 1999, so
her classmates knew she hadn't gone. The crusade
was begun in 1998 by a Union County Baptist
pastor and is planned for this April as well.
While declining to comment on the lawsuit,
school system Director James Pratt said the
ministry rents school buses for transporting the
students and some teachers act as chaperones but
they must use a personal day to do so.
He referred other questions to Nashville
attorney Charles Cagle. Cagle declined comment
because he had not seen a copy of the lawsuit
Thursday afternoon.
*
The name-calling and rumor spreading began soon
after the 1999 revival, India and her parents
said.
*
Between 1999 and February 2002 when her parents
removed her from Horace Maynard Middle School,
the lawsuit alleges:
*
n That India was repeatedly called "Satan
worshipper," "witch" and other derogatory names.
She was accused of eating babies and of being a
lesbian because she wasn't a Christian, the
lawsuit said.
*
n That India was forced to attend regular Bible
study classes during the school day, and urged
to lead the school and her class in prayer.
*
n That derogatory names were written on her
locker in permanent ink and the school refused
to paint over the graffiti or move her locker.
*
n That India was repeatedly attacked as she
knelt in front of her bottom-row locker. Her
head was bashed at least 10 times, cutting her
lip, above her eyes and bloodying her nose.
*
n That a teacher told India to "keep quiet
because you'll get in trouble" after she wrote a
paper about religious freedom.
*
n That a bus driver regularly asked India in
front of other students if she had gone to
church yet and if she'd like to come to church.
*
The Tracys' Knoxville attorney, Margaret Held,
said the family did not want to sue. They just
wanted their daughter to attend a safe school
without persecution.
*
"They tried being quiet about it and that didn't
work," she said. "I would hope that the people
in Union County who have been killing their
goats and beating up their kid are a minority.
If there's one thing that Christ taught, it was
tolerance."
*
During her years at Sharps Chapel Elementary
School and later at the middle school, India
maintained top-notch grades. She also was one of
the few girl players on the football team,
played in the band and belonged to the Beta Club
and Chess Club.
*
Her parents pulled her out of public school
nearly a year ago, after a friend of hers called
to say she'd been suggesting suicide. She was
diagnosed with anxiety and has been home-
schooled since then.
*
The suit seeks $300,000 in damages to pay
India's tuition to a private school, legal fees
and the cost of psychological counseling. The
suit also seeks a court prohibition against "the
school system's continued religious
indoctrination of children."
*
"Maybe it will be a harsh enough lesson so the
next child in Union County who's different can
continue through school and graduate and feel
safe," Sarajane Tracy said.
*
Jennifer Lawson can be reached at 865-342-6316.
*
Copyright 2003, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.

[MrAcheson]

Ah yes the ancient religious tradition of Paganism, which was actually made up less than a century ago... :rolleyes:

The kids made fun of her because she's different, suck it up. Perhaps the parents should have thought about things a little more before they decided to turn their daughter into a defacto activist. Kids are cruel and while the teachers and administrators need to put a stop to it when they see it, they can't be everywhere.

The article seems to be saying that the school staff and administration has been negligent in enforcing acceptable student behavior, which based on this biased account may be true. Plus, if the school may be compelling her to practice a religion other than her own, which is definitely a problem. Hope her parents win this one.

All the more reason for school vouchers in tennessee.

[MitchSchaft]

All the more reason for school vouchers in tennessee
:what:

No way. School vouchers is another way for the gubment to get their hands into places it shouldn't be. I hope they don't make vouchers mandatory.

[MrAcheson]

Here's a similar occurance that occurred somewhere else:

http://www.detnews.com/2001/schools/0103/07/a01-196600.htm

[Glock Glockler]

All the more reason to get rid of govt schools in the first place. I just don't get it when people complain about this type of activity, yet they don't make any mention of the govt having a virtual monopoly on schools. What better way tp puch your ideas on others than throught govt, and when we combine that with schools it starts to get really swell.

Hmmm, the school administration is biased, who knew? This article tells us about a symptom it's time people looked at the root cause.

[Zander]

How odd...these "parents" have subjected their treasured offspring to three school-years of abuse.

Where's the bureaucracy when you need it? :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Can someone please explain to me why tax dollars are being squandered to bus public school students to tent revivals? Thank you in advance.

[Mike Irwin]

Paganism appears to be incorrectly used in this phrase.

It would appear that the family actually practices a loose form of animism.

Animistic religions are what led my ancestors to bring pine trees into their houses in ancient Germany. Animistic religions are still alive and well in some places in the world, and certain practices of animistic religions, such as the Christmas tree, live on inside the framework of Christian traditions.

Mr. Archerson, I believe the religion you're trying to key on is Wicca, which seems to have evolved out of a whole variety of anamistic and polytheistic religions along with the concept that magic is a viable force in the universe.

The term pagan goes back to at least the 1300s in describing polythiestic religions, especially the religious practices of ancient Rome and Greece.

Quite frankly, every religion was new at one time. Doesn't matter if someone started believing it 100 years or 100 centuries ago. That's the wonderous nature of this country.

[Tamara]

Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
It's good enough for me.

We will worship Aphrodite
As she dances in her nightie
They say she's pretty flighty
But she's good enough for me.

;) :D

[Airwolf]

But the Union County youngster knew she'd
probably be the only student with "no" written
on the permission slip to attend a tent revival
during school hours. When she declined to
portray Mary in a Christmas play, she also was
sent to the principal's office.

What ever else happened these two incidents are over the top.

As Tamara asked, why are public tax dollars and school time being used for a purely religious function? Religious teachings belong at home, not in a public school. I also think that "teaching" as related to a tent revival is really stretching the concept anyway.

I agree that the parents should have stepped up to the plate sooner and demanded that the situation be addressed, but it does sound like they are outnumbered and trying not to be more of a target than they already are. Not a good strategy when your daughter is getting her head bashed on a locker.

[Jim March]

Vouchers are a GOOD idea. They let parents spend the money they put into schools in the type of education they want, voting with both their feet and wallets.

Long term, yes, getting gov't out of ALL education is a good idea but vouchers are a good first step the public will accept.

[Gordon]

#1 I don't believe in 1998 a revival would in anyway be aided by a public school in US. IF it was some heads should of rolled LONG ago. I don't think Tenn is that fundamentalist even in the most remote enclave to act this way , is it ? I am somewhat of a fundamentalist Christian/Zionist but I detest anyone pushing or humiliating anyone about their religion even if they are Satanists or atheist. Some thing about this story sound bogus or is Tenn still have places like 19th century?

[pax]

As a Christian, I am particularly galled and disheartened by this story.

I do not want my child indoctrinated in the basics of someone else's religion -- especially not during the hours he is supposed to be learning how to read, write, and cipher.

I do not want my child forced to pretend to accept something that I believe is nonsense. I especially don't want him forced to hypocritically accept something that he believes is nonsense.

I do not want my money to pay for the propagation of someone else's religion.

And I don't see why on earth any good Christian would want to do these things to other people's kids, and then claim to be following the One who said, "Do to others as you would want them do unto you."

Of course, the underlying problem is that there is no way to accomodate Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Jews, Wiccans, and Atheists all in the same public school. It is not just that the religious tenets conflict with each other. If it were only that, we could simply leave out all the religious bits and everyone would be happy. The problem is even the very absence of religion sends an unacceptable religious message to some of these people. That means there is no way to accomodate all of us, even in the best of all possible worlds.

The only real solution is to abolish mandatory public schooling, and let the free market do what it is supposed to do.

pax

A lot of people can cover their mistakes, but not teachers. Their mistakes grow up to be school board members. -- John Leo

[Fatcat]

Vouchers are a good idea, but only if you live in a place where you actually have a choice in schools. I know the closest decent private school is about 80 miles from me.. it just ain't profitable for any free enterprise school to come out to the rural areas.

I realize people like me are in the minority, and life isn't fair, but I'd be pissed off if I got stiffed.

[UnknownSailor]

I'm with mitchshaft. As usual with government programs, any school that takes voucher money will more than likely have to take all the strings that go with this public money.

Unless the voucher laws are written expressly to avoid having the schools recieving the money comply with these strings, I don't want vouchers.

[Joe Demko]

Before the choir here gets too far into a rousing chorus of "Abolish Public Education," I suggest you do a little study of why public education exists in the first place. It is, in fact, part of law at the constitutional level in most states. The people of the various states instituted public education because of widespread illiteracy, non-existant math skills, and the general observation that the criminal class consists overwhelmingly of uneducated, unskilled people. It was their perception that public education would foster the general welfare. These "goverment indoctrination camps" educated the people that made this country into the greatest nation in the world. The market had the opportunity to provide an educational system and it failed. Public education works. It needs repairs, to be sure. it does not need replaced.

[Augustwest]

I find the bus driver's actions as bad as anything else in this story - an agent of the government advocating religion is wrong.

[dev_null]

Bad enough some places want to turn back the outcome of the Civil War, now they want to overturn "Scopes?" :fire:

-0-

[CZ-75]

I can't believe that everyone in town is a S. Baptist.

I'd expect several Methodists, possibly even Catholics, even in a remote town in the South.

That said, even the Christians wouldn't all have participated in a tent revival.

Would've been easier if the parents had just pulled her from school for a day or two during the revivals.




As to public education, getting rid of teacher's unions would be a good start on the road to fixing it. They are a lobby/special interest group that is only receptive to the needs of their constituency (i.e., teachers). Getting rid of tenure would be another, along with yearly contracts would be another. Teachers should be yearly salaried employees instead, subject to being hired and fired like any other.

[Augustwest]

Easier, but no more Constitutional.

[Joe Demko]

As to public education, getting rid of teacher's unions would be a good start on the road to fixing it. They are a lobby/special interest group that is only receptive to the needs of their constituency (i.e., teachers). Getting rid of tenure would be another, along with yearly contracts would be another. Teachers should be yearly salaried employees instead, subject to being hired and fired like any other

Get rid of locally elected school boards before you do this. Teacher's unions exist largely in response to abuses by school boards. Nepotism, even with unions, is still a way of life for many school boards, as is hiring the guy who will make the best sports coach rather than the one will make the best teacher. Also might want to consider mandating salaries at par with other professions of similar educational levels. I don't think you'll see overwhelming numbers of bright, capable people choosing teaching when it will earn them a fast-food level income.

[CZ-75]

Get rid of locally elected school boards before you do this. Teacher's unions exist largely in response to abuses by school boards. Nepotism, even with unions, is still a way of life for many school boards, as is hiring the guy who will make the best sports coach rather than the one will make the best teacher. Also might want to consider mandating salaries at par with other professions of similar educational levels. I don't think you'll see overwhelming numbers of bright, capable people choosing teaching when it will earn them a fast-food level income.


"First God made the idiot for practice, then he created the school board."

I've never seen a school board that wasn't made up of a bunch of losers with one or two conscientious individuals who think they can achieve something. They learn soon enough. I tend to agree about local boards, but find it hard to believe that a state-wide board wouldn't create its own set of problems, equal or worse than before.

I'd be happy to pay teachers more, if I thought I was getting more. Very much a chicken or the egg proposition. Hard to see this changing when Education majors are among the lowest performing students, by major, at most colleges and universities.

The idea of education as, at least at the undergraduate level of specialization, as a major field is ridiculous. Learn a subject first, then earn the qualifications to teach it. I do believe this is changing, but the level of worthless courses required to get certified is ridiculous. I didn't want to waste a year and a half of my time to enter a low paying field, and that was even with an MS in the natural sciences.

[BigG]

Golgo: Given this I don't think you'll see overwhelming numbers of bright, capable people choosing teaching when it will earn them a fast-food level income. is not new and has been the case at least since the '50s, how do you think this system is working and/or can be fixed? BTW, I came up and did pretty well DESPITE my "free" public edication in the Detroit Public School system. This > :rolleyes: is for them (DPS), not for you buddy! ;)

[Felonious Monk]

Pax said:And I don't see why on earth any good Christian would want to do these things to other people's kids, and then claim to be following the One who said, "Do to others as you would want them do unto you." The only real solution is to abolish mandatory public schooling, and let the free market do what it is supposed to do.Unfortunately, there is a phenomenon here in Dixie called "Socialized Christianity", which says that if my Grandpappy was a Christian, then I'm a legacy into the Pearly Gates fraternity, by virtue of my name being on the role of the First Petrified Church of the Frozen Chosen. Lots of pressure to conform, and they'll getcha saved, over and over again, if necessary. ;)

Presumptuous of me to say, and correct me if I'm off-base, but I think that's what makes Tamara so bellicose against any mention of Christianity, is the ignorant stereotype she sees in that kind of sheep-think. To have come to it by thought and discussion, wrestling with the concepts and resolving the philosophical conundrums, I would hope, would not be as distasteful.

WHY does the U.S. have the undisputed best colleges and universities in the world, and arguably some of the LEAST effective elementary, middle, and high schools?

Simple.
The Elem, MS and HS's are run in large measure by the Gubmint.
The Universities are competitive in a free market economy.

Yes, vouchers are the way to solve it, and the NEA is shaking in its boots that it might actually happen. So let it be written, so let it be done!

[MrAcheson]

Wicca refers to a pretty specific celtic-based religion which was basically invented whole cloth in one of 19th century Britian's Gothic periods. It draws on some pre-19th century literature, but its not truly based on it. Its am almost entirely modern religion which tries to present itself as historical/traditional for its own benefit. For instance the Salem Witch Trials are refered to by Wiccans a lot even though Wicca didn't exist.

Paganism denotes a host of religions and spiritual systems like animism and various polytheistic tribal religions. I would wager that many of these are like Wicca, modern interpretations of ancient religions fabricated in fairly recent history. There are exceptions to this of course, but in America this is probably the case.

Mandatory education of children is a good thing. This is not the same as public education which implies that schools are state run. Public schools have been on the decline for years, partly because they're increasingly run by idiots and partly because of more stringent legal restrictions on what they can teach/do. Once upon a time schools were about creating good citizens through instruction in fundamental skills like reading, math, science, civics, and logic/rhetoric. Private schools, even underfunded ones (in comparison to public schools), have surpassed them in almost every area. Plus the income level of families in private schools is actually LOWER than the average in most areas, because poor folks have started to realize that their public school systems are the worst.

The obvious answer to school problems is to introduce competition into the marketplace. Parents can send their kids to the kind of school they want and in the end the best schools will win out. Granted the state will worm its way in, but its already going to do that anyway as private schools become more popular without their help. Provided we can keep state interference to the minimum standardized testing all schools should do anyway, they will be fine.

[rock jock]

Can someone please explain to me why tax dollars are being squandered to bus public school students to tent revivals? Thank you in advance.
Read the article. The revival rents the buses. No public monies are being used, either for the buses or the teachers salaries (since the are using vacation days to attend). As far as the revival goes, children are allowed to attend parades, funerals, community fairs, and other extracurricular activites. States mandate that these activites cannot reduce the number of hours spent in school, so no one is suffering. Furthermore, if you notice, attendance is voluntary. If you don't want to go, stay at school. But don't force your pagan beliefs on others by preventing them from attending.

As far as I can tell, the school may be partially responsible for abuse suffered at the hands of Ms. tracy, but only if they were aware that it was happening and if they had an opportunity to stop it.

[Tamara]

Read it, thanks very much. Struck me as being a very "gov't school sanctioned thing".

I can just hear the howls of protest if your kid came home and asked you to sign a permission slip to keep him out of a Beltaine festival.

Why is gov't school affiliation with one invisible sky-spirit okay, but gov't school affiliation with a different invisible sky-spirit is taboo? Help me out, here...

[rock jock]

Struck me as being a very "gov't school sanctioned thing".
If it were, the school system would deserve a bigger slap than $300,000. More like school admins being out of a job.

I can just hear the howls of protest if your kid came home and asked you to sign a permission slip to keep him out of a Beltaine festival.
It depends. First, if I lived in Marin Co., Kali, I would probably expect it and would educate my son on why the other kids were going and why we do not share their beliefs and, more importantly, how he can effectively answer the questions of other students about our own. I would protest if any public monies were going to support attendance.

[Intune]

Read the article, and find out why they are only asking for $300k in damages. Not sanctioned by the school, eh? So a bunch of my buddies can go down to Beaumont and RENT a school bus for our annual festival on May 1st it's cool with you? Rock Jock, you said: "But don't force your pagan beliefs on others by preventing them from attending." That's rich! Read it again! ROTFLMAO
Oh, and if a bunch of our kids smack yours around for wearing that silly cross that's okay? They should have gone to a different school with more of their "type" around. Thanks for the laugh.

[rock jock]

Wow Intune, your handle sure is a misnomer. You are a little too quick on the trigger. Read my post carefully before you comment. :rolleyes: Nowhere did I say that verbal or physical abuse of Ms. Tracy was justified or should be tolerated. Quite the contrary. I don't know of any Christians who would feel differently. In fact, most would look upon Ms. Tracy's opting out as an opportunity to open a discussion on religion.

Now, if you want to drive to Beaumont and rent a school bus for the day, I'm sure no one would object. However, if you expect kids to come to your pagan festival or even find someone willing to provide you with land, you'd be laughed right out of the county. Local mores prevail, as they should. If I moved to a community of Wiccan's, I would expect such a festival to succeed and attendance by kids on a school day to be high. Of course, finding such a community might be a little tough, even in the "enlightened" areas of this country. I wonder why?

[Glock Glockler]

Golgo-13,

Did we become the strongest country in the world because the govt was running schools with a virtual monopoly on them or in spite of it?

There was widespread illiteracy because when govt run schools were gaining more and more prevelance we were an agrarian society and there was really not much need for an extensive education. Even when we were becomming more and more industrialized, you didn't need to be able to translate ancient Greek in order to get a job and provide for yourself. The real reason for the push towards govt run educations was a reaction to the scores of immigrants coming into the country. Many nativists didn't like the idea of a foreign culture in the US, and thus wanted to Americanize those children.

Public education "works"? Well, what criteria are you using to determine what "working" is? If it means doing an adequate job of preparing children to become proficient and self-sustaining adults, it's doing an absolutely appauling job at it. When govt schools graduate children who cannot read, something is wrong. When children have absolutely no idea about even basic level economics and finance, something is wrong.

The entire system is based around and industrial society mindset (not that it even does a good job at that) and certainly does not prepare children for the information age. Just because a state's constutution has a clause reserving education as a govt function does not mean that having them run it is a good idea.

I cannot help wondering why a free-market works in production of food, computers, and just about everything else that is generally unmolested by govt, but it somehow cannot work with education.


Can someone please explain to me why tax dollars are being squandered to bus public school students to tent revivals? Thank you in advance.

Because it's govt, silly. Don't you know that they'll loose their buget if they don't blow it this fiscal year?

[Intune]

Wow, Rock, no misnomer on my part and my aim is slow and deliberate on easy targets. These are your words:

RJ: "As far as I can tell, the school may be partially responsible for abuse suffered at the hands of Ms. tracy, but only if they were aware that it was happening and if they had an opportunity to stop it."

India Tracy came to expect being sent to the principal's office even though she was a well-behaved, straight-A student.
When she declined to portray Mary in a Christmas play, she also was sent to the principal's office.
That India was forced to attend regular Bible study classes during the school day, and urged to lead the school and her class in prayer.

That derogatory names were written on her locker in permanent ink and the school refused to paint over the graffiti or move her locker.

That a teacher told India to "keep quiet because you'll get in trouble" after she wrote a paper about religious freedom.

That a bus driver regularly asked India in front of other students if she had gone to church yet and if she'd like to come to church.

Intune: Let me know when you start to get the idea that there may be a problem here Rock.


Rock: "In fact, most would look upon Ms. Tracy's opting out as an opportunity to open a discussion on religion."

Intune: Oh, I'm SURE they did RJ. And how much do you want to bet that the "discussion" wouldn't be to find out more about the beauty of her Pagan beliefs. That's where you would take the discussion to isn't it RJ? To learn more about the beliefs that her parents instilled in her? To share in the joy she feels? That IS what you would do, right?

Rock: "Now, if you want to drive to Beaumont and rent a school bus for the day, I'm sure no one would object."

Intune: Ah, but being intune (don'tyaknow) I am almost positive that they would indeed object and not rent a govt maintained vehicle to my bunch and therein lies the rub. Nor should they! This lawyer is going to eat their lunch. And breakfast as well as dinner.



Rock: Of course, finding such a community might be a little tough, even in the "enlightened" areas of this country. I wonder why?


Intune: I too wonder why RJ. Please tell me why you think there aren't many Wiccan communities around. I am very interested on your take. Also, please put yourself in this family's shoes. They shouldn't have to move to a particular area of the country to freely practice their religion or lack thereof. This is America. Put Islam, the Koran and Allah into this equation and tell me what you would feel when your kid came home banged up because he didn't face Mecca.

[rock jock]

Intune,

my aim is slow and deliberate on easy targets Yeah, I can tell by your invective that you are certainly a calm and reasoned individual.

First, you assume a great deal. My original comments were directed at the issue of the revival, nothing more. If Ms. Tracy has in fact been pressured by the school to attend Bible studies, her suit is warranted and will prevail in court. I say "if" because the facts have not been presented yet, only allegations. Of course, this may meet you standard of proof, but not mine, nor the legal system.

Ah, but being intune (don'tyaknow) I am almost positive that they would indeed object and not rent a govt maintained vehicle to my bunch and therein lies the rub. Nor should they!
1. You DON'T KNOW that, you only assume (again). 2. Why should the school not rent buses to individual groups, as long as the rent includes a fee for maintenance? I seriously doubt this little podunk town has a Hertz on every corner. It may well be that the school buses are the only form of public transport within 50 miles.

Intune: Oh, I'm SURE they did RJ. And how much do you want to bet that the "discussion" wouldn't be to find out more about the beauty of her Pagan beliefs. That's where you would take the discussion to isn't it RJ? To learn more about the beliefs that her parents instilled in her? To share in the joy she feels? That IS what you would do, right?
More assumptions. My, my, we ARE seeing a trend here. And a little stereotyping to boot. Well, that seems about right. The truth is, I have had many many discussions with members of other religions, both organized and otherwise, about our mutual beliefs. And virtually all of these have been conducted in an environment of respect and tolerance. Rarely do we agree, but we are both educated and are the better because of it. Of course, generally these people aren't given over to a lot of assumptions and vicious stereotyping, but then again, they aren't so overcome with anger that they can't engage in civil discourse in the first place.

[Intune]

My invectives? If you are so easily affronted perhaps you need to take a deeper look within. This is America. Local mores are transcended by the Constitution. I “assume” nothing. I am merely discussing a case in which you have the same “facts” as I. Do you feel at a disadvantage? A standard of proof has not been raised at all. I ask again, do you feel at a disadvantage? I deduce that a Union City or Beaumont school bus may not be rented out by a private party for an excursion. Particularly a religious one. I don’t care if they are a thousand miles from the nearest municipality. Care to make a bet on some crow munchin? So now you infer that I deduced wrongly on the inference that you would not embrace her religion and feel that she will not sit upon the right hand of God in her afterlife? One easy question will prove me wrong. Do you feel that Pagans go to Heaven? You avoided the question as to your feeling toward a Muslim school that treated one of your children this way. Will you address it now? “They” have as much right as you. Do you agree with that? Should they have to move to a more “enlightened” enclave? "But don't force your pagan beliefs on others by preventing them from attending." There’s civility for ya!

[Intune]

Oh, one thing to add, God bless you and yours.

[pax]

sigh.

See what I mean?

pax

No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other. -- Jascha Heifetz

[jmbg29]

Yes, vouchers are the way to solve it, and the NEA is shaking in its boots that it might actually happen. So let it be written, so let it be done! AMEN!:p ;) :evil:

[Joe Demko]

There was widespread illiteracy because when govt run schools were gaining more and more prevelance we were an agrarian society and there was really not much need for an extensive education.
So it's okay for farm kids to be illiterate? Or the children of miners and unskilled factory workers? Our ancestors who instituted public education didn't think so and neither do I.
The real reason for the push towards govt run educations was a reaction to the scores of immigrants coming into the country. Many nativists didn't like the idea of a foreign culture in the US, and thus wanted to Americanize those children.
Nice story. Citation?
what criteria are you using to determine what "working" is?
The overwhelming majority of children in this country can read, write, do mathematics, and grow up to be productive citizens.
When govt schools graduate children who cannot read, something is wrong. When children have absolutely no idea about even basic level economics and finance, something is wrong.
Source? From where are you pulling this? Show me that this widespread problem, as you see it, actually exists. For every child you can show me who graduates without being able to read, I will show you thousands who can. The business world has people who slip through the system while being ingnorant and/or incompetent too. Does business not "work?"
The entire system is based around and industrial society mindset (not that it even does a good job at that) and certainly does not prepare children for the information age.
Is it? Then I wonder why we have all those computers and other information age devices. I wonder why we teach courses in how to use them. I wonder why we have vo-tech schools that offer diplomas in information processing, computer programming, and other information age areas. My school is very poor, and we are squarely in the information age, thank you very much.
Just because a state's constutution has a clause reserving education as a govt function does not mean that having them run it is a good idea.
Just becasue a legislature abolishes an clause doesn't make that a good idea, either.
I cannot help wondering why a free-market works in production of food, computers, and just about everything else that is generally unmolested by govt, but it somehow cannot work with education. It had the chance and it didn't work. If free-enterprise had been providing effective and widespread education, public schools wouldn't exist in the first place.

[Felonious Monk]

Dear Intune and Rock Jock,

I'd like to echo the words of Mr. Ernie Klump, when he said in the cinematic tour de force "Nutty Professor II":

"Stop the Violence! Stop the Violence!" :rolleyes:

[DeltaElite]

Wasn't this country founded on religious freedom?
I guess intolerance is also a virtue of organized religion.

[jmbg29]

I'd like to echo the words of Mr. Ernie KlumpThat would be Dr. Klump. :evil: ;)

[Intune]

I agree. Religious discussions always seem to spiral downward at a fast clip. RJ's position was quite clear in his first post. That I happened to disagree about the revival being the important thing instead of this child's rights and face being trampled led us down a dark path. I apologize both to RJ and the board. We have much more in common and should not let a little thing like eternal life get in the way. :D I will however find out if ANY school system lets people rent their busses.

[buzz_knox]

In this neck of the woods, yes, you can rent school buses. They are the property of private companies who have contracts with schools. But, to the best of my knowledge, they remain private property. As such, they can be leased out to private citizens.

As for the rest, before we lynch these people, would it not be appropriate to remember that the information contained in the article comes from the plaintiffs in a lawsuit, who are not necessarily predisposed to say anything but what is best for their said? This article is the opening gambit in a bid to poison the jury pool and/or reach a settlement. The plaintiff's attorney shouldn't have even given the interview.

[Intune]

I think it's the feathers that make it so hard to swallow. It's not the WRONG part mind you! Our busses are bought, maintained and used by the county. Do you live near that county Buzz? I'm tryin to salvage something here! If they don't offer that rental service to all interested parties they are really in the legal doghouse.

[buzz_knox]

I live in Knox Co. and grew up in Anderson Co., as well as spent quite some time in Union.

As for the buses, my information could be off but I do believe that around here, they are private property. I could always be wrong so hold off on the crow pie. In any event, even if they are private property, the school system probably has some say in how they are used as they do have the county logo on them. In that circumstance, they would have to make them available to everyone as a rule (although some exceptions may be allowed).

[DeltaElite]

I love ya all, no matter what race, religion or ethnicity you are.
The above does not apply to anti gun advocates. :D

[hutch24]

Up here the school busses are owned by a private company and leased by the school district. Private citizens can rent the busses provided they have the proper endorsement on their drivers license. I don't know if this is the case in TN.

[JCOJR]

I deduce that a Union City or Beaumont school bus may not be rented out by a private party for an excursion. Particularly a religious one.

Small correction on this statement. Many school buses were rented by people in counties adjacent to Nashville to bring people to the Billy Graham Crusade

[rock jock]

All right, enough with the group hug. I agree religion is a topic that can bring out the worst in folks.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Irrespective of the school bus issue, it sounds like kids are being organized to attend the revival through the school. If so, that's just wrong.

[Soap]

My plan for if and when my wife and I have children, is home schooling until grade 9. Then at that point, they will go to a private academy of their choosing. I want my kids to be raised by adults, not by other children. Of course, schooling will include learning the European languages in Zurich and learning civics at the range :D

[Glock Glockler]

So it's okay for farm kids to be illiterate? Or the children of miners and unskilled factory workers?

ROI (return on investment), where is it? What need does someone who spends their life on a farm have for Ancient Greek? As long as they know the basics of we consider "education", they're all set. Why spend years sitting in a classroom when one can be out earning and learning? If it is not applicable to enhansing their productive capacity, it's a waste.

ancestors who instituted public education didn't think so and neither do I.

Great idea, since govt does everything soo well, let's put them in charge of education.

Nice story. Citation?

Give me some time on sources. I'm in CT for job training right now, which is probably the most useful education I've ever gotten, so I'm not in NH where all my sources are. I will come through though.

The overwhelming majority of children in this country can read, write, do mathematics, and grow up to be productive citizens.

Productive? Most people cannot comprehend even basic level economics or finance, and I cannot think of a more important topic for one to be educated about. People are not trained in what it takes for a business to be successful, so how will they know what they should be investing in? They are taught dependance, and that is why we are sinking further and further into a state where everyone is dependant on the govt nipple to provide for them, because they cannot provide for themselves.

Source? From where are you pulling this? Show me that this widespread problem, as you see it, actually exists. For every child you can show me who graduates without being able to read, I will show you thousands who can. The business world has people who slip through the system while being ingnorant and/or incompetent too. Does business not "work?"

I've personally know people who were issued diplomas who could barely spell, and my uncle is a teacher in NYC, and I hear horror stories from him as well. Yes, most others will be able to read, but just being able to read at 17 isn't a tremendous accomplishment IMO.

There are those that slip through the cracks of the business world, but don't get me started on "cracks" and "govt". Govt run anything is one giant crack. Compare Enron, worldcom and any others to the US federal govt and tell me who's doing a better job with their books.

My school is very poor, and we are squarely in the information age, thank you very much

It's great that you can use a computer, but the most significant factor of the information age is the way businesses will have to change and compete, and they have been dropping the massive costs of pension plans and turning the responsibility to the employees themselves, which they are not prepared to handle. I want to know how what child X is learning, and why it's applicable to their survival in the real world. Business are the one's that have to pick up the slack in educating people, to teach them what they must know on order to be successful.

Just becasue a legislature abolishes an clause doesn't make that a good idea, either.

Nope, so I guess we'll have to compare objective data on govt schools v. non-govt schools and see which are more cost effective.

It had the chance and it didn't work. If free-enterprise had been providing effective and widespread education, public schools wouldn't exist in the first place.

Why is it that non-govt schools exist right now, yet they are far more effective than govt schools?

Also, your reasoning is extremely flawed, almost like saying that having limited govt and freedom didn't work, since we now have the opposite of that. Things in general weren't groovy when the govt decided to get into the education business, but are we doing better becuase of or in spite of the govt running education? 100yrs ago, most families didn't have indoor plumbing and electricity, and the average lifespan was far shorter, so does that mean that low taxes and limited govt was the reason why that was so, just because the two existed concurrently?

[Zander]

For every child you can show me who graduates without being able to read, I will show you thousands who can.So much for basic math.

The national average for high-school graduates who are functionally-illiterate is 25%. Don't take my word for it...those numbers are published by the fed.gov and no less a presence than the fools who dominate the NEA and its state arms.

Our government indoctrination centers are miserable failures at producing "graduates" who can write simple letters, much less term papers which are free of spelling and grammar errors; who can do the most basic math problems [much less understand why they push calculator buttons]; who can decipher the simple questions asked on employment applications.

We are abdicating our responsibility to our children by subjecting them to curricula that find "lessons" in diversity, moral subjectivity and political correctness more important than the 3 R's.

It's a clear, distinctive trend whether you are willing to admit it or not...

[Tamara]

They're not "literacy-challenged", they're "ignorance gifted". :evil:

Sincerely,
Tamara
Lukie publik skool grajooit

[jmbg29]

They're not "literacy-challenged", they're "ignorance gifted".What's that George Carlin line about the new term for Retarded?...Minimally Exceptional! :D :D :D

The kids are getting knifed in the back for the sake of politics.

Just look at the multiple threads that drjones has started regarding his "Ethnic Studies" class. That professor isn't even trying to teach. He is simply indoctrinating them.

If they defy him, he will almost certainly give them a failing grade.

I know roughly 20 professors. I can say that I respect only 2.

That's less than 8%.

:D ;) :p