Any problems with Witness 10mm?

I have a few months before I can get another gun and I this was one that I was thinking about. I really really like the CZ design, I have a P-01 and 75B now. I have always looked as the Witness pistols as being less quality as the CZ but alot of people like them and a friend of my wifes has one in 10mm that he loves and claims not failurs in 1000 rounds.

What is your opinion of these?


clipse

Witness - good pistols, but you knew I was going to say that.....:D Ask CZ75ID over at CZF - he has one. Evan Marshall has one for ammo testing, and he likes it, too.:cool:

I had three (3) .45 Witnesses (same frame size) that ALL had slightly cracked barrels after a half dozen rounds. All were sent back to EAA and at least once they traded for another gun entirely (instead of changing out the barrrel). I own none now. Sad, but true.

I loved the Megastar, and it was designed around 10mm. VERY sturdy gun, shot very nicely. Not cocked-and-locked, though and that's why I got rid of that one.

My Witness has held up well. about 3,000 rounds so far in 3 years.
Maybe I don't shoot it enough. I load it fairly hot and use a Wolf 20
pound spring. The Wolf helps with brass recovery. 155 and 180
gr. loads and handloads. along with 200 gr Hornadys.

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/28889aten-med.JPG

MY gun doesn't like anything below 1,000 fps with the new spring.
Full power ammo works the best, never a jam with any of it.

The 10mm is my Knock-about Woods gun. Wonderfinish has held
up good, and I have no complaints of broken slide or barrel, ect.

I still prefer the workmanship of my 97B..a real deal CZ. Both have Hakans..
the 97B far better trigger and sights.

I have 2 Witness 10MM's....full size with the wonder finish and a compact for carry....they are 2 of my favorite handguns, shoot well and also reliable so far with no problems....best buy for the money in 10MM's....

Yes there is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




































The problem is that I dont have one........yet;)

.... here's my experience with a Tanfoglio Witness 10mm Compact in wonder finish.

While the Tanfoglio Witness Offers much in the way of possible vaule, that value is only experienced if the Witness you purchase works well from NIB.

To this topic I and several other shooters can attest. My experience came with a Tan Witness Compact in 10mm with the Wonder finish. For a Witness, it was a very nice example, with the Wonder finish on the frame and slide matching very nicely(not always the case with some NIB Wonder finish Witnesses I've seen) with no external tool marks being in evidence. The lock-up when in battery was very tight and centered as it should be. All in all, what I thought would have turned out to be a nice purchase.... unitl the range sessions that is!

Oh yeah, this pistol was purchased NIB.

After trying all the then currently available 10mm ammunition types, approximating 400 to 500 rounds being tested, using four Tan factory mags, the following was being experienced: all mags, slide would lock back before last round fired; two different types of feed errors; one extraction error; very definitive primer swipes on all ammo types. These problems were reported to EAA via email and EAA's response was to suggest that perhaps I had been limp-wristing the pistol. My response to that was to inform EAA of my level of experience with handguns and firearms in general. EAA seemed a little unbelieving, but asked for the return of the pistol... along with $20 to cover return shipping of a new pistol under warranty!?!?

The returned "repaired" pistol was tested and found to have had only the premature slide lock problem to have been fixed. All other problems were still occurring with all mags. This was reported to EAA and their reponse was to again request the pistol be returned(with of cousre, another $20 for return shipping), along with the curious comment, "note: witness action movement is shorter than ones you listed in regards to length of round.", from the responding EAA representative.

This time the returned pistol had a few changes made to it, without EAA having called, emailed or snail mailed(USPS) me requesting permission to do so or informing of their intent to alter my pistol. The changes: different slide with mill cut for Witness Supersight(a rather high profile target type adjustable sight); wide paddle type extended ambidextrous safety; Supersight rear sight. I didnt't desire any type of "upgrade" that EAA had just decided to give me without ever having contacted me before doing so, or before returning the altered pistol to me. Additionally, EAA returned only three of the four mags that were sent with the pistol for repair(they had requested all mags be sent with the pistol and all mags were marked/tagged by me when shipped). While the thought may have been nice, I didn't want or desire a target rear sight with a higher possible snag possibility on a pistol purchased with CCW as the prime reason for purchase. Beside this, the Supersight has history in that it has been known to "self disassemble/break" under the rougher recoil of the 10mm and occaisionally the .45 ACP. The same reasoning was in my mind regarding the extended wide ambi safety; it was just too wide and possibly snag inducing. To top this, the slide was slightly damaged, with a small chip of steel broken from the slide immediately above the extractor cut. To say that EAA was not happy to hear of my "comments" about how my "repaired" pistol was returned to me, they had a Ms. Sharon Bell call me and inquire as to how I wished this to be handled. I found this to be a very good way to address the situation. Ms. Bell even made the offer of one or two additional magazines to be included when the pistol was returned to me along with the most recent repair. I declined this offer, indicating that I only wished to recieve my pistol in a manner that I had desired it to be when purchased; that of a working example. So, back to EAA went the pistol again(yeah, with $20, to cover, you know), along with a letter indicating the reasons, my discussions with Ms. Bell and my appreciation of EAA's patience, concern and effort to address the situation. BTW, if you have to call EAA for anything and don't need to talk with their smithing dept.(and prey that you don't), hope to get Ms. Bell, as she seemed to be the only person there that knows how to talk to someone as they should be talked to; like another human.

Well, what I got back after the third trip to EAA was.... not very nice. A standard compact slide with the original fixed sights to be sure, but it wasn't my original slide either. This slide had light scratches along the side and dinges in the front edges, a chip of steel missing from the rear sight dovetail, mis-machined openings for both the barrel and recoil guide rod, dents/dings in the left rear slide serrations. The standard rear sight had slivers of steel caught between it and the sight dovetail and the sight was dented during installation. The front sight recess on the rear of the front sight was barren of any colored filling whatsoever. Then the big tip-off that this slide was not a new replacement; the interior/underside of the slide showed definite wear patterns from more than just the use of testing or break-in, the type of wear seen from a few thousand rounds. Barrel lock-up was(and still is) loose, as if "worn-in" by the firing of many rounds or miss-fit. Additionally, the alignment of the barrel is not true in the slide. Other small things were not correct either. BTW, the target that accompanied the pistol's return was a "hand drawn" center dot and approx. 4" circle around said dot, as if done with a mostly dried out braod tip Marks-a-Lot black marker, on an 8"x11" piece of sheet letter paper. Hand printed on the "target" was, "15 yds off hand FMJ & JHP factory ammo", with nine(9) holes in the target(nice grouping though). So the total of testing may have only been a total of nine rounds... I'm not sure as the only documentation that accompanied the pistol, indicated that a standard slide and ambo safety(their spelling) fitted and an "extra" magazine(actaully my original fourth mag that had not been returned after the second repair) along with said "target".

I contacted EAA and began said correspondence by thanking them for their rapid response and the consideration they had shown in addressing the conditions of the pistol and my concerns to date. I then explained in even-handed and diplomatic terms the items and conditions I had found the returned/repaired pistol to be and my concerns. I also informed EAA that to make sure to myself that I was not being too judgemental in my estimate, I had sought the opinion of professional and experienced shooters. These uninvolved parties indicated they did not consider the pistol be an example of a warranty repair to a new pistol, but thought the pistol to be used. The parties sought were of an experienced pistolsmith with some following in the IPSC local community and a shooter of many years collecting and competitive experience(with some success). I outlined all that had been expereicned to date and only asked that EAA return my pistol to an "as-new" condtion as had been purchased and that it function without error.

EAA's response:
Received from EAA on 12-29/01 10:15

Dear Franklin,

We ask that you return the pistol with a copy of your invoice and any other costs. We will refund your money and then we ask that you never buy another EAA Product. We fell it is impossible to make you happy. Note: I looked at the gun and test fired it before it left EAA and the gun meets factory specifications. We have tried to make you happy and it appears we will never be able to do so.

Please include a copy of this letter when you return the gun.

Sincerely;


Keith Bernkrant (President European American Armory Corp)


The time span of all this was from 05-05/01 until the final communication with EAA, on 01-29/02, which is as follows:

Dear Franklin B*****,

We will never make you happy. We want to give you your money back and
ask that you never buy our product again. I do not know anyother way to say this. This is my second request.

Mr. Tanfoglio the manufacturer of your pistol, is standing next to me
and he agrees that we will never make you happy.

Sincerely;

Keith Bernkrant (President)


I know this post has been long and grueling to some readers, but I just thought someone would like to know what to possibly expect if they require an involved repair situation with EAA. It's too bad too, as I think the Tanfoglio(please don't ever besmirch a Witness by calling it an "EAA") Witness feels great in the hand and offers a lot of potential. IMO, Tanfoglio is losing marketshare as long as EAA is the USA importer/servicing agent and continues(and my tracking indicates they haven't meaningfully changed) to be so.

BTW, I still have the pistol and it still doesn't function with all types of factory ammunition. In fact only three types work with any type of reliability. I also have all documentation, emails, pictures of the final "repairs" and the unique, one-of-a-kind target that accomapnied the pistol. I really wonder if Tanfoglio ever knew just what this side of the experience was like?

To all, Shoot Safe, Shoot Well!


Addendum: Here's a link to a thread here on THR for a little additional info on EAA. Here's the link:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95196&highlight=EAA

On reading the post, notice that the instances are not limited to Witness pistols.

Well, I have a Witness 10mm as well, and was saddened to hear of the trouble nvrquit had.


My Wit10mm jams alot with the 20lb spring (nosediving, going balistic {jamming nose into top of chamber}), but if I change it back to the original 14lb it doesnt. However, it inflames my wrist to an almost unbearable level after 50rds. But it doesnt jam now.


I need to get some aftermarket mag-springs for it to help it along.

Any experience with the "Limited" version of the Witness, 10mm or otherwise? It looks like a much nicer piece than the standard model.

nvrquit,

Please tell me what the president of EAA said was a joke! That is unbelievable and someone needs to take courses in public relations and business. Even if you were 100% at fault etc, they could offer to buy back the gun from you in a nicer manner...

... twice.


Mattf7184,

The final email correspondence between was the nicest manner in which they had ever replied(beyond that of a Ms. Bell, who was the only personable/professional individual that I spoke with from EAA).


Bergeron,

The "Limited" version of the Witness has been written about buy others that have owned them. It has been indicated that this version has more attention paid to QC. Check the CZ Forum for more posts on the Limited version.


Addendum:
I have retained all documented correspondence that involved EAA. Anyone wishing to inquire in more detail, please PM me.

So President of EAA Corp. Keith Bernkrant's stance is that if one of their firearms isn't working properly, and they can't fix it because its just too much trouble - "never buy an EAA product again"??

I say we all comply with his request not to buy any more EAA products. Thats my response anyways. :mad:

... tempted me in the past to agree with you, but that's not the reason for my post.


Akurat,

While considering what I had experienced, many may think that this is the reasoning with which I posted my experiences. Not so. I just wanted to let other shooters know what may happen.

I truly believe that a Tanfoglio(please, don't disgrace that pistol by calling it an EAA) Witness offers a lot of potential for the very reasonable price being asked. The only two stumbling blocks for this are: sometimes spotty QC; EAA as the USA importer and servicing agent. On the latter, EAA's gruff manner in which it has handled some customers has not been limited to Tan Witness pistols, as there have been a few posts related to other EAA product lines that have had less than pleasant service experiences.

A Tan Witness pistol has the potential to offer quite a nice value for the monetary outlay. Just know that going into the purchase of a Tan Witness, that you may get that problem child. If so, you either put up with EAA's possible chancy attitude, find a different pistolsmith that's good with a Witness or lastly, diagnose and repair the Witness yourself. If you get a Witness that works well from NIB, then it's a joy to shoot. If not... well, it could be interesting.

EAA has a long history of spotty customer support, I have heard that it is getting better. This, coupled with the fact that I have never actually seen a Witness 10mm in Wonder finish (my preferred combo) keeps me from owning one. In fact, I rarely see witness pistols in my area, but I am seeing a ton of CZ-75B's!