SWAT team called in for a man with 200 LEGAL guns.. Yes- the SWAT was called in...


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Yohan
February 19, 2003, 07:22 PM
http://www.tampatrib.com/MGAIJ98DBCD.html

TAMPA - Some were shooed from their homes by sheriff's deputies; others just came outside to see what was going on. After all, it was hard to miss the big green armored personnel carrier and SWAT officers in the Northdale subdivision Monday.
Hillsborough County sheriff's deputies responded to 4021 Braesgate Lane after two bank agents foreclosing on the house saw numerous firearms and explosives inside. After six hours, deputies determined that the resident, Robert Walters, 46, is an avid gun collector.

They also determined that his cache - about 200 guns and some inactive hand grenades - is all legal.

But they didn't know all that just before noon, when deputies evacuated 15 homes on Braesgate and called in the emergency response team. Deputies dressed in SWAT gear carrying MP5 rifles walked the usually quiet streets as residents looked on from front yards and street corners.

On a normal weekday, most residents would be at work or school, but because of the Presidents Day holiday most were home, and it was anything but normal.

``There was a sniper guy in our front yard,'' said a young boy who was watching the activity after he was evacuated from his home.

Eli White wasn't evacuated but came outside when the response team gathered near his home.

``We've been here 22 years and we have never seen anything like this. It's nice to know there is a response mechanism that can respond to something like this,'' White said as the armored personnel carrier drove by.

Many residents brought out cameras and video recorders to capture the incident that started just after 11 a.m. Monday when one of the bank agents who had been sent to the home Friday to change the locks decided to report his find. The man told deputies he saw numerous guns, ammunition and explosives when he went inside Friday, said Chief Deputy David Gee. He also saw boxes of canned goods. But he didn't report his find until Monday when he drove by and saw a car that was not there Friday. When deputies arrived, they did not know whether Walters or anyone else was inside, so they used the armored personnel carrier and a bullhorn.

``Robert Walters, pick up the phone or come to the door and talk to us,'' an emergency response team deputy called out. ``If we find out everything is OK, we're going to be on our way.''

After no response for several hours, he changed his plea.

``Come on out so we can resolve this. There are no charges pending. We've got other things to do. We need to get going.''

About 4:45 p.m. deputies found Walters through relatives. He was not in the home. Walters then told deputies they could search the home, because he didn't have anything illegal.

He was right, said sheriff's spokeswoman Debbie Carter. The guns, inactive hand grenade and an inactive mortar are all allowed. No charges were filed.

Walters bought the home in 1977, property records show. It was foreclosed upon in January by Chase Mortgage Services, court records show. Walters also owes $26,100 in county code violations for junked cars.

Few neighbors had ever seen Walters, but one said she had seen him drive his 1979 brown Cadillac down the driveway to his mailbox, then drive the car back up the driveway.

Others said he is polite, but not talkative.

``He doesn't really talk to anybody,'' said neighbor James Provost. ``He's kind of the reclusive type.''

-------------
Hmmmm

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pax
February 19, 2003, 07:26 PM
We live in a police state.

pax

This is my life. If you don't like it, go get one of your own. – Kathy Jackson

Airwolf
February 19, 2003, 07:30 PM
The man told deputies he saw numerous guns, ammunition and explosives (huh?)when he went inside Friday, said Chief Deputy David Gee. He also saw boxes of canned goods


....and the idiot thought "survivalist/militia/gun-nut", I'll bet and pushed the panic button.

No wonder many of us who own guns keep a low profile. Crap like this always reinforces my instincts to keep off EVERYONE’S radar as much as possible.

Average Guy
February 19, 2003, 07:34 PM
"We've been here 22 years and we have never seen anything like this. It's nice to know there is a response mechanism that can respond to something like this,'' White said as the armored personnel carrier drove by.

Yes, Mr. White, I agree: It's nice to know that there is a response mechanism that can deploy overwhelming force at the request of a couple of panicky bank agents.

Of course it begs the question: With that many guns, why was he being foreclosed on? gunbroker.com, boy! :D

DeltaElite
February 19, 2003, 07:38 PM
Sad, very sad.
I would have just knocked on the front door.
SWAT is way overused, but if you have the toys, you have to find a reason to use them. :(

Redlg155
February 19, 2003, 08:04 PM
``Come on out so we can resolve this. There are no charges pending. We've got other things to do. We need to get going.''

Translated into..." This is Monday and a Holiday. No donut shops are open today so we gotta find some grub". :D

Good Shooting
RED

Drjones
February 19, 2003, 08:08 PM
``We've been here 22 years and we have never seen anything like this. It's nice to know there is a response mechanism that can respond to something like this,'' White said as the armored personnel carrier drove by.

Your papers, citizen....

This is for your own good....trust me......

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.....

:banghead:

DeltaElite
February 19, 2003, 08:11 PM
They should have tried, "Open the dang door, or we are ordering pizza and wings for 100 cops and billing it to you." :D

Schuey2002
February 19, 2003, 08:15 PM
This country is going to HECK [must.. refrain.. from.. using.. expletives!!] in a hand basket..:banghead:

:cuss: :cuss:

Wayne D
February 19, 2003, 08:59 PM
``We've been here 22 years and we have never seen anything like this. It's nice to know there is a response mechanism that can respond to something like this,'' White said as the armored personnel carrier drove by.


That can used against someone who has broken no laws?:rolleyes:

cheygriz
February 19, 2003, 09:01 PM
We're never going to get rid of this kind of crap until SWAT teams get outlawed. They should have been outlawed 20 years ago.

QuickDraw
February 19, 2003, 09:13 PM
Sheesh,the most shocking thing to me is the cops didn't
confiscate the guns.The other thing is the bank guy was there
Friday and saw all the goodies and didn't do anything,waited
2 days!:confused:

QuickDraw

CZ-75
February 19, 2003, 09:19 PM
``He doesn't really talk to anybody,'' said neighbor James Provost. ``He's kind of the reclusive type.''



Translation: This is an irrelevant quote, but we had to add it because it demonstrates he's a "loner" and may go on a shooting spree, so calling SWAT was justifiable. BAN GUNS NOW!

TarpleyG
February 19, 2003, 09:20 PM
We live in a police state.
But one of the better police states to live in...

GT

Kahr carrier
February 19, 2003, 09:20 PM
ONE WORD PARANOID.:rolleyes:

Ian
February 19, 2003, 09:28 PM
Pax nailed it. Wilkommen, komraden.

T.Stahl
February 19, 2003, 09:28 PM
"Come on out so we can resolve this. There are no charges pending. We've got other things to do. We need to get going.''

Then why did they send a SWAT team? :confused:

NIGHTWATCH
February 19, 2003, 09:30 PM
Kudos to the SWAT TEAM for their patience. This team was obviously pro-gun rights to me, unlike any BATF team that might have come his way. :cool:

hammer4nc
February 19, 2003, 09:35 PM
Walters also owes $26,100 in county code violations for junked cars.
I'd like to hear the story behind this one...how exactly does one rack up $26k in code violations? Most court orders for this type of thing specify $100 per day until the violation is rectified. Thats like $100 x 9 months!

Sad, a man losing a home he's owned for 25 years. Legal or illegal, now that his gun collection has been publicized, I'll bet a county clerk tries to seize them as payment for the legal judgement...at least they would around these parts.

BlackArrow
February 19, 2003, 09:37 PM
"dressed in SWAT gear carrying MP5 rifles". Notice that the MP5 is called a rifle. If you were carrying the semiauto version it would be called an assault weapon.:cuss: It's just happy day in suburbia boys and girls. I guess the guys lucky our local swat team wasn't there. They probably would have leveled the house with gunfire, killed a few bystanders and called it collateral damage. Consider the source, a banker. Wonder if he thought (or in fact did) about removing some of the toys over the weekend?
Hummmmmmmmmmmm
The loner line is the one they always use to describe the guy on the roof with the Mauser so who knows, maybe this story isn't over yet.

twoblink
February 19, 2003, 09:40 PM
So what are they saying now? Stocking up on canned goods because Von's is having a sale on Spaghetti-O's is illegal now??

SWAT was called, cost the city an easy $10,000 for NOTHING..

200 guns? That's just a THR get-together that includes Tamara, that's all!!

Autolite
February 19, 2003, 09:41 PM
I mean, the man was driving a '79 Brown Cadillac. I am certain that he was in violation of numerous 'good taste' laws ...

megatronrules
February 19, 2003, 09:47 PM
I hate to say this but why do you they always call 90 cops for one guy? A little off topic but makes you think....
Also I noticed the police becoming more and more militarized.(sp)?
They call us "civilians". They are not active military personel, are they not "civilians" as well?
I have nothing against LEO's. I just wonder about these things.

CZ-75
February 19, 2003, 09:53 PM
This sounds like a reason to regulate the sale, use, and storage of canned goods.

I propose "common sense" legislation that would limit purchases of canned goods to 5 per shopping trip (2 trips maximum per day), but only after filling out an application and receiving a "permit to purchase canned goods," after paying a fee and going through a 10-day "cooling off" period.

No one may have more than 30 cans at a time and they must be stored in DOCG (Dept. of Canned Goods) approved pantry, subject to inspection by DOCG agents with 24 hours written notice, unless a warrant has been authorized.

All can openers must have can opener locks installed and funds will be allocated to fund the study and implementation of "smart" can openor technology within 3 years.

All cans must be transported in the trunk of the vehicle and not be carried concealed in brown paper bags or other opaque containers, but in clear plastic bags approved by the DOCG.

:rolleyes: :D

El Tejon
February 19, 2003, 09:55 PM
26K in fines?!?!:what: Why not just send in the city attorney with a sheriff's sale order and take his guns that way?:D

Carbon_15
February 19, 2003, 10:30 PM
Also I noticed the police becoming more and more militarized.(sp)?

C.itizens O.n P.atrol

Standing Wolf
February 19, 2003, 10:37 PM
<sarcasm> Well, thank heaven those guns didn't start committing crimes all at once! </sarcasm>

vulcan
February 19, 2003, 11:10 PM
CZ-75,
I believe one of Klinton's excutive orders prohibits the hoarding/stockpiling of food in times of emergency:rolleyes:

The sheeples were happy to see a APC rolling down their neighborhood to take care of police business? If I saw that in my neighborhood, my underwear would have went to condition brown:D

DeltaElite,
you're right about that, If all you have is a hammer
everything starts to look like a nail

geegee
February 19, 2003, 11:51 PM
You guys must have missed this: Others said he is polite, but not talkative.
Sounds like "probable cause" to me. :rolleyes: geegee (No relation to Chief Gee)

No4Mk1*
February 20, 2003, 12:30 AM
Does having the grenade allow police to obtain a warrant to search the home? How about 200 guns?

geegee
February 20, 2003, 03:42 AM
Search? Perhaps. But call for the SWAT Team and an APC? :scrutiny: geegee

4thHorseman
February 20, 2003, 04:22 AM
You can just visualize the local news camera crew getting everyone worked up into a frenzy, then when they found out everything was legal, the best spin they could put on it was fines for junk cars. If it was so sad it would be funny.

Country Boy
February 20, 2003, 02:35 PM
It isn't SWAT's fault that they were called up. When they're asked to do a job, I would guess that they would do it to the best of their ability. Somebody at a higher pay grade made a poor decision to make a mountain out of a molehill.

He also saw boxes of canned goods.
Well thank goodness they didn't raid the local Food Pantry by mistake, there certainly would have been casualties.

Didn't Tom Ridge just tell us to stock up on items like canned goods? The man was just doing his patriotic duty.

seeker_two
February 20, 2003, 05:48 PM
One word never used in this story....

Warrant.

About 4:45 p.m. deputies found Walters through relatives. He was not in the home.

Talk about a lack of reconnisance...:what:

El Rojo
February 20, 2003, 08:45 PM
You don't need a warrant if the home is owned by the bank and the bank wants you to check on their house. They were changing the locks because the guy no longer owns the house. Well no one got hurt and they all looked pretty silly. Maybe next time they will just knock on the front door. I am sure Eli is laughing his butt off right now.

sixgun_symphony
February 21, 2003, 12:19 AM
I think everyone is too focused on the guns when they should be looking at the unpaid bills, fines for junked cars in the front yard, and other odd behavior.

The guy is an obvious crank. He could have been paying off the bank loan rather than buying so many guns and junked cars.

jbutenhoff
February 21, 2003, 02:41 AM
He didn't owe the bank jack! He owed the fines for the junk cars...


Also, I bet that with the right lawyer he could sue the police and the bankers that turned him in for defamation of character and a bunch of other stuff!

Jamie

wQuay
February 21, 2003, 08:26 AM
One word never used in this story.... Warrant.

Under the Patriot Act, they don't need a warrant unless you're at the door and refuse to let them enter.

JohnBT
February 21, 2003, 09:42 AM
Okay, I read the article. What's all the ranting and raving about?

The employees go by on Friday to change the locks after the foreclosure.

"It was foreclosed upon in January by Chase Mortgage Services, court records show. Walters also owes $26,100 in county code violations for junked cars."

Note the reference to the foreclosure AND the county code violations.

On Monday, MONDAY, one of the guys employed by the NEW owner drives by and sees a car there - so he thinks maybe somebody is in the house who doesn't belong there. Then he reports it and mentions the guns, etc. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do - looking out for the interests of your employer.

The mortgage company owns the house and has had the locks changed. Could be that's why the previous owner wasn't in the house :)

The police don't know who is, or isn't, in the house that the mortgage company owns.

I agree - the previous owner should have paid his bills on time.

John

MrAcheson
February 21, 2003, 10:36 AM
I'm with you JohnBT.

The cops were called because someone thought Walters was a dangerous survivalist. Lets face it he does fit the stereotype of single introverted white male with guns, ammo, explosives, and rations strewn about his home.

Knowing what they did, the police reacted with appropriate force for the threat. A single uniformed officer, for instance, would have been a dead man had Walters been the threat they thought he was. Might as well have sent a girl scout armed with cookies.

Lock the %&*$# guns up moron! We're very lucky some thug didn't use his collection to supply the black market with guns for a month.

DMK
February 21, 2003, 10:53 AM
Another good reason not to store guns and ammo (and food!?) in an openly visable mannor.

Carbon_15
February 21, 2003, 12:15 PM
he does fit the stereotype of single introverted white male with guns, ammo, explosives, and rations strewn about his home

OMG:what: SO do I!
Just made a quick look. On my living room floor there is one shotgun, one .38 snubbie, and one 9mm waiting to be cleaned, Half a case of MRE's left over from a recent camping trip, A WWII muset bag that I found yesterday at a pawnshop, A current USGI gas mask that a friend was playing around with last night and left laying out, a new PASGT helmet that a friend gave me a few days ago as a curio, 8 lbs of BlueDot and a few thousand primers that UPS just delivered and several large knives that I didn't get through sharpening before I went to bed. And that just the living room. Planing an invasion, or just procrastinating with cleaning up?

The nice thing about being single again is that you don't always have to put your toys away imediatly...thats also one of the bad things about being single.

Tamara
February 21, 2003, 12:24 PM
"We've been here 22 years and we have never seen anything like this. It's nice to know there is a response mechanism that can respond to something like this,'' White said as the armored personnel carrier drove by.

Open 1984. Read the last sentence. Sleep well. :uhoh:

JohnBT
February 21, 2003, 01:26 PM
Tamara -

What's the problem with the police responding to the owner's request to secure the house?

Mortgage company = OWNER.

Well, let's look at the situation. If I were a police officer told to check out a house containing numerous firearms and grenades(they didn't know they were inactive grenades at this point)

...and that house was OWNED by a mortgage company that recently repossessed it

...and the owner's representative asked to have the house checked

...and there was the possibility the FORMER owner had broken into the house he NO LONGER OWNED

...would I want some armor?

Yup. Seems reasonable to me, unless you live in Mayberry R.F.D.

YMMV, but better safe than sorry seems prudent.

But I'm still amazed so many people can't read carefully for content and repeatedly refer to the former owner of the house as the owner of the house. He is the former owner.

John

12.7x99mm
February 21, 2003, 07:13 PM
I bet some of these guys were jacked up just wanting to get in fire fight or to beat some heads in.

Like someone said if they have the toys they will want to use them.

El Rojo
February 21, 2003, 09:48 PM
I bet some of these guys were jacked up just wanting to get in fire fight or to beat some heads in.Is that why they waited a few hours before they changed their tactics and said, "Come on out so we can resolve this. There are no charges pending. We've got other things to do. We need to get going.'' Yeah sounds like guys who want to get in a fire fight. :barf:

I do find JohnBT's statments to be the most accurate. If you had a guy that was heavily armed, back in the house he just got kicked out of because he doesn't own in any longer, you might not want to go dee-daddling up there to see if he is home. Some people might want to and that might work too. I think the whole thing worked out fine. No one got hurt, the cops got to do a little training for what they do for the majority of their call-outs, sit around waiting and observing and ending the situation peacefully.

I just hope the guy gets all his guns back. If not I want to know when the auction is!!!

Tamara
February 22, 2003, 12:12 AM
What's the problem with the police responding to the owner's request to secure the house?

Where did I say I had a problem with that?

What I commented on was Citizen Unit 50375124's joy at seeing the 3rd ACR roll down his street.

GAMALOT
February 22, 2003, 12:59 AM
Great Story, now the entire neighborhood knows the guy has lots of guns in there. I expect the following days paper to read,
" Gun collector robbed of entire collection of guns, Police fear weapons have fallen into criminal hands"
It's a good thing the house was being repoed because it is deffinately time to move!:banghead: :cuss:

CZ-75
February 22, 2003, 01:08 AM
What I commented on was Citizen Unit 50375124's joy at seeing the 3rd ACR roll down his street.

The Unknown Citizen

(To JS/07/M/378 This Marble Monument Is Erected by the State)

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be
One against whom there was no official complaint,
And all the reports on his conduct agree
That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint,
For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.
Except for the War till the day he retired
He worked in a factory and never got fired,
But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.
Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views,
For his Union reports that he paid his dues,
(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)
And our Social Psychology workers found
That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.
The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day
And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.
Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,
And his Health-card shows he was once in hospital but left it cured.
Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare
He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan
And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,
A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.
Our researchers into Public Opinion are content
That he held the proper opinions for he time of year;
When there was peace, he was for peace; when there was war, he went.
He was married and added five children to the population,
Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation.
And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.
Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:
Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.

-- W. H. Auden

Zundfolge
February 22, 2003, 01:11 AM
Okay, I feel silly ... I read the story and got all excited because I thought the guy's name was Robert Waters (not Walters) ... I figured it was just typical police state tactics against someone who would dare speak out in defense of the constitution.


https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcInfoBase.asp?CatID=177


Instead its just typical police state tactics against joe average citizen.


:fire:

Don Gwinn
February 22, 2003, 01:12 PM
MrArcheson, do you know what "stereotype" means?

JohnBT
February 22, 2003, 10:45 PM
"...Citizen Unit 50375124's joy at seeing the 3rd ACR roll down his street."

Sorry, that's over my head. Are you referring to something in the original article posted on this thread or quoting from lit class?

I'm still amazed that so many members are upset that the police surrounded the mortgage company's house at the mortgage company's request.

A bunch of folks are still talking like the man referred to in the article still lived there when the police were called in.

Sheesh. Later y'all. The out and out overreacting is embarrassing.

John

Tamara
February 22, 2003, 11:03 PM
"3rd ACR" = Third Armored Cavalry Regiment

What I was commenting on was not the cops showing up to make sure everything was kosher, not even cops with big scary guns showing up to make sure everything was kosher, but the fact that Joe Sheeple seemed to be comforted by the sight of NINETY GUYS WITH SUBMACHINEGUNS, RIFLES, AND SHORT-BARELLED SHOTGUNS, PLUS A FRIGGIN' ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER deploying down his suburban street.

When I was growing up, that was how you could tell the difference between America and third-world banana republics run by guys in big, fancy hats: were there troops in the streets or not? Now, Joe Sheeple is HAPPY TO SEE THEM! What country is this, America or Costa Rica?

waterdog
February 23, 2003, 12:19 AM
That's sounds like a hell of an idea. Ordering pizza for 90 cops doing a raid.


Waterdog

GAMALOT
February 23, 2003, 12:41 AM
Tamara, You said it all and I could not agree more with your read.
Because I happen to be a law abiding ""CITIZEN"" who happens to work and enjoy the collecting of weapons is no reason for alarm. This attitude of, "He has too many guns and therefore must be some kind of a nut is way out of wack".
It is not what you collect or why you collect it but it is all about the respect you have for where you are and the freedoms you are afforded.
The vast majority of us, "COLLECTORS" pay our taxes and never do a dam thing to bring on the kind of HEAT witnessed here and I for one am appaled at the thought of my neighbors, who have not one bad thing to say about me, thinking it is COOL to have the GUSTAPO on my block because some DORK with a low life job saw my ART COLLECTION.
What ever happened to the concept of, "INOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" or, "THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS".
DO these jerks forget the basic premise that every right they enjoy, such as the free speech they have was won by GUNS and in fact will be maintained by them.
When they all end up in "HOLLYWOOD", I will gladly SHOOT MY TV.

Shweboner
February 23, 2003, 03:11 AM
After six hours, deputies determined that the resident, Robert Walters, 46, is an avid gun collector.

'Took them six hours to determine that? What a bunch of boneheads!

~Brain

Seminole
February 23, 2003, 02:28 PM
Tamara wrote:
were there troops in the streets or not? Now, Joe Sheeple is HAPPY TO SEE THEM! What country is this, America or Costa Rica?

Woah, there, Tamara! Don't go insulting Costa Rica by comparing it to the U.S.! ;-)

While Costa Rica, as a Socialist Democratic Welfare State, certainly has its problems, one problem they don't have is troops in the streets since they don't have troops--the country has no military.

Another difference between the U.S. and Costa Rica is that the Costa Rican Libertarian Party (Movimiento Libertario) won just over 10% of the seats in the National Congress (6 out of 57 members) in the February 2002 elections.

JohnBT
February 23, 2003, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the explanation.

I've been to Costa Rica. Very nice country and wonderful people. I felt safer in both the capital and the countryside than I do in various parts of D.C., Baltimore and Richmond.
__________

Re: "It's a good thing the house was being repoed because..."

The house had already been repo'd. That's why the locks were changed 3 days before the incident. The doofus with the guns and grenades hadn't paid his bills and lost the house. The new owner's rep was the one who called the police because he thought someone had unlawfully entered the house.

The headline should have read "HOME OWNER CALLS IN POLICE TO SECURE THEIR PROPERTY" - but that wouldn't have been any fun to discuss.

To the people who actually read the article - hi there!

John

hammer4nc
February 23, 2003, 02:58 PM
The house had already been repo'd. That's why the locks were changed 3 days before the incident. The doofus with the guns and grenades hadn't paid his bills and lost the house.

Not to dispute your contention that the bankers had proper court orders in hand before they changed the locks, but I think there's possibly more here than has been disclosed... specifically:
Walters bought the home in 1977, property records show. It was foreclosed upon in January by Chase Mortgage Services, court records show. Walters also owes $26,100 in county code violations for junked cars.

I'm wondering if the house was leined/seized as a direct result of the judgement related to the junk cars. I did a little research, and Hillsborough County Code enforcement (as well as Florida Association of Code Enforcement) has something of a history of racking up exorbitant penalties for code violations, as a pretext to seize property. One case where a guy was fined $1,250 per day because he had algae growing in his pool!

He may be a doofus (as you have judged), or he may have been making a property rights stand against code enforcement, and lost. Maybe he had all his earthly possessions stacked and boxed in the front room for moving out (likely scenario if you ask me)...regardless, calling out the swat team because the bank guys noticed "guns, ammo, (dummy) explosives, and canned goods" and a strange car, seems a little over the top. Unless you're comfortable with this latest example of demonizing gun owners, simply for the fact that they own guns?

Keith
February 23, 2003, 03:14 PM
The whole thing is ridiculous. One phone call to ATF would have given them the info that the man in question had a class 3 license. Any police suprvisor who would call out SWAT rather than make a phone call ought to pay the bill for this fiasco.

Keith

El Rojo
February 23, 2003, 04:28 PM
Why does it have to be a fiasco? Why couldn't it be an excellent training opportunity? This is what we use SWAT teams primarily for. Not for dynamic entries, not for combating terrorists, but securing the perimeter of a barricaded subject that might potential be armed and dangerous. No one got hurt, the cops did their jobs right, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. Sure you can get all upset that we have police that are capable of rolling out armored vehicles and laying seige to your home. That is understandable. But to get so upset about it and start going off the deep end about how there are armed troops in the steets. I don't see anything wrong with it. I am armed too. Now when these police forces start trying to oppress and kill us, then we will need to be concerned. Then you can have your chance to shoot them in the streets for the tyrannical totalitarian jack-booted thugs they are. Right now, they are just trying to serve the community and make sure everyone is alive at the end of the day.

The police are well armed now a days. What are you going to do about it? The only thing that should get anyone upset is that in places like the PRK they get all of the good toys and we don't. It isn't the cops fault. It is the legislatures fault. They make the rules.

Keith
February 23, 2003, 05:50 PM
>>>>Why does it have to be a fiasco? Why couldn't it be an excellent training opportunity?<<<<

Why don't we have 50 or 100 armed men surround your house with loaded weapons for no reason? Another excellent training opportunity and no harm done as long as you, your wife and kids don't make any sudden or suspicious moves... Who could object?

Keith

Vorpal
February 23, 2003, 06:22 PM
Whew:p after reading this :D I need some
doughnuts and coffee:D :D :D

Larry

4v50 Gary
February 23, 2003, 07:45 PM
You'd think that someone with 200 plus guns would have enough sense to pay his mortgage. Now he's obdachlos (without a home) with 200 guns that needs storing. Mr. Waters, I'll buy a safe and store some for you. :)

JohnBT
February 23, 2003, 11:56 PM
hammer4nc-

If the former owner was current on his mortgage, and he wasn't, how did the mortgage holder get legal title and possession? -- You suggest that because of the fines owed to the government the mortgage company ends up with the house? Doesn't work that way here. If the locality is owed money then THEY are going to court to seize it and they're not going to give squat to the mortgage company until they get their money.

Meanwhile, the doofus lost his house and this thread is INACCURATELY TITLED.

In other words, I don't follow your logic at all.

John...I'm beginning to believe that THR is largely populated by folks with a high quotient of paranoia and anti-government leanings. And poor readers, too, who jump to conclusions. Jump hell, leap.

geegee
February 24, 2003, 12:58 AM
I'm beginning to believe that THR is largely populated by folks with a high quotient of paranoia and anti-government leanings.
Now really, who's paranoid, J ohnBT ? Hey...those are mighty suspicious initials...:scrutiny: geegee

CZ-75
February 24, 2003, 12:48 PM
If the guy who was the "owner" had fines levied against him, yet he had a mortgage on his property, why wouldn't the mortgage company get the house?

I mean, the county wouldn't seize the property from the lienholder. The answer would seem to be that either the house was being autioned, at which point the mortgage company either sold the house to pay the lien the county had against it, or just paid the county off outright.

Drizzt
February 24, 2003, 08:42 PM
Neighbors know little about man at center of standoff
published February 23, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NORTHDALE -- Who lives in the home at 4021 Braesgate Lane? The one that sheriff's deputies surrounded for a tense six hours on Monday?

Neighbors know little about the owner, Robert Walters.

They say Walters rarely comes outside before dark. If they happen to meet him while he's walking his dog on the sidewalk, he's usually not inclined to start a conversation.

"If I'm out walking or riding my bike in the late evenings and I see him I'll speak and say hello and he'll just grumble and not speak back," said neighbor Char Adams.

The quiet and reclusive man became the center of attention when deputies, believing he was inside, declared a standoff outside his home.

The drama unfolded after two bank officials involved in a foreclosure on the home told deputies they had seen a stockpile of guns, ammunition and canned goods in the unoccupied home on Feb. 14. When they returned on Monday, they saw a car parked in the driveway and called the Sheriff's Office.

Deputies evacuated about 15 homes and mobilized the SWAT team, the bomb squad and an armored tank. Agents from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives also were called to the Northdale neighborhood.

Through a loudspeaker, officers pleaded with Walters to answer the phone or come to the front door and talk to them. "We just want to check things out and make sure everything is okay."

But in the end, they discovered that Walters was not even home and that all the guns and ammunition had been legally obtained.

Robert Walters did not respond to interview requests.

His brother Phillip Walters described him as "a gun collector."

"We grew up hunting," he said.

Dozens of Northdale residents watched the spectacle from behind the police tape while they commented on Walters' unkept property and swapped stories about the rare occasions he is seen outside.

Court records show Chase Mortgage Services has moved to foreclose on his home for non-payment of the mortgage. A lawsuit filed by the company indicates Walters owes $16,500 on the house, which is valued at $94,000 by the Hillsborough County Property Appraiser's Office.

But he owes even more in fines.

Hillsborough County Code Enforcement officers have a lien totalling $26,400 on Walters' property and that number is growing by $100 a day since June 2002.

Code enforcement supervisor Jim Blinck said Walters was cited for problems with his roof, the trim of his house and overgrown conditions on his property. Blinck said if the bank completes the foreclosure and seizes the house, that act will wipe out the county's code lien.

George Aboud, former president of Northdale's homeowners association, said the board has been trying to get Walters to clean his property for years.

"We have written to him, but nothing has been done," Aboud said. "The place continues to deteriorate."

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/23/Northoftampa/Neighbors_know_little.shtml

Tamara
February 24, 2003, 08:52 PM
Deputies evacuated about 15 homes and mobilized the SWAT team, the bomb squad and an armored tank.

Do they normally do this in your neck of the woods for foreclosures? If so, would you please share your location so I can remind myself not to move there?

El Rojo
February 25, 2003, 02:06 AM
Why don't we have 50 or 100 armed men surround your house with loaded weapons for no reason? Another excellent training opportunity and no harm done as long as you, your wife and kids don't make any sudden or suspicious moves... Who could object?Sure. Fine by me. I don't plan on running out of the house with my M1 Carbine to see what is going on. When they yell at me to come out of the house or pick up the phone, I would probably do that. I would probably call the local PD and tell them, "Hey, there are 200 armed men outside, what do they want? OK, tell them I am unarmed and I am going to exit the house as soon as they acknowledge they got the message that I am unarmed and mean them no harm." Then I exit the house, yes probably swept by numerous muzzles. They cuff me, get it straightened out, then I ask them to show me their MP5s and then they can leave my property! :p

The idea that these SWAT teams are ready for action and ready to bust caps at a moments notice are often exagerated. Yes, some SWAT teams have been known to over-react or react-improperly. When you get one that does act properly, you hear nothing but critisism. They received a call, they took care of it. Big deal.

hammer4nc
February 25, 2003, 09:53 AM
johnbt,

I prefaced my remarks on the foreclosure, by acknowledging that the bank guys had proper court orders in hand before changing the locks. Yes the mortgage company is the owner of the house!

Yet, don't minimize the consequences of having a legal judgement of $26K against you...from a government agency. This guy apparantly ignored various notices; the usual response of ignored agencies is to "turn up the heat". They can and will lien anything in sight, including assets used in making a living (ruining your credit rating in itself). Put a block on getting license renewals. Garnish wages (which itself can lead to termination in lots of companies). All the above sure don't help a person maintain current obligations, do they? Some mortgages have acceleration clauses for judgement liens.

I don't have all the facts in this case... if you do, please share them...

However, all this is beside the point of the imagined "threat" and the armored SWAT response. If you're comparing "paranoia quotients", the bank guys and/or sheriffs office that escalated the situation, is the issue here, IMO.

I guess you think the proper title of the thread should be: "Delinquent nutjob gets what coming to him!" (correct me if I'm misunderstanding your point).

Many of these use of force threads break down to defenders vs. critics of the action. No need to impugn the reading skills of those who you disagree with, friend.

Don Gwinn
February 25, 2003, 10:22 AM
I'm beginning to believe that THR is largely populated by folks with a high quotient of paranoia and anti-government leanings.

Yew ain't from around here, are ya? That should have been obvious your first day.

El Rojo, what can I say? Do what you want. I prefer NOT to have 50 amped-up policemen pointing automatic weapons at me for no good reason, but it's your life. Just don't complain if/when it doesn't go quite as smoothly as you outlined there. I'm sure that poor sucker who had hundreds of rounds fired into his house in San Antonio because one SWAT ninja had an ND would agree with you that what happened to him is just the price we pay. That was a great training opportunity, too. The team medics and the ER got some practice in on that one, as did the morgue and the Medical Examiner. And of course, if the Branch Davidians had just come out peacefully to talk to BATF, everything would have been fine, right? And the Weavers--what the heck were Kevin and the boy thinking? They should have gone back to the cabin, called the Cour D'Alene PD and asked them why men in camouflage body armor with silenced submachine guns and automatic rifles were hiding in their woods. If they'd kept a leash on that damn dog, it wouldn't have gotten shot, after all. Just because it's your property doesn't give you the right to expect that you won't be surrounded by 50 hostile and armed representatives of your government. :banghead:

Code enforcement supervisor Jim Blinck said Walters was cited for problems with his roof, the trim of his house and overgrown conditions on his property. Blinck said if the bank completes the foreclosure and seizes the house, that act will wipe out the county's code lien.

In other words, the man's big crime was not painting his trim, having missing shingles, and not mowing the grass or trimming the shrubbery enough. I notice that junked cars are not mentioned this time. I don't claim to know whether the original report that he was a nutcase with a yard full of junked cars was true, but you'd think that would be mentioned before "the trim on the house." The trim on my house is old and decrepit because the house is 100 years old. However, I don't live in a neighborhood dominated by a bunch of old biddies on an HOA board, so I'll fix it when I finish more important repairs inside.

Another good reason to move out of town. If you live in a town, you don't own your property.

DeltaElite
February 25, 2003, 10:55 AM
Well I am paranoid and I do have anti-govt leanings.
BTW, I work for the govt.:D

We have too much govt and it is poorly focused, the more govt we get, the less efficient it becomes.
So yah, I am anti-govt in some ways and paranoia is a way of life for a street cop.

CZ-75
February 25, 2003, 12:27 PM
no property was damaged or confiscated


Only the guy's house.

Coincidentally, he had way more equity than liability in his house before the govt. moved in.

deanf
February 25, 2003, 02:12 PM
Point of order: The government has no authority to regulate conduct on private property that doesn't cause anyone direct physical harm, therefore, the fines for junk cars should not be an issue.

Cosmoline
February 25, 2003, 02:20 PM
Yeah, these guys were absolute saints compared with the BATF. After all, they took a look and left as soon as they realized their mistake. BATF would have sealed off the whole neighborhood and set fire to the house, plus maybe a few other houses for good measure.

Cosmoline
February 25, 2003, 02:31 PM
FYI, as holder of a mortgage or trust deed on the house, the bank would almost certainly be in a superior position to any government liens. The government would need to go through a process of "perfecting" their liens against the house, at which point the governmental entity which holds the debt would be a junior lienholder. They would stand next in lien to the bank and whichever other creditor(s) got there before them. The house would be auctioned off. In most states the sheriff's sale has been replaced by a much less formal procedure. Either way, the proceeds would go to pay off the liens in order of priority, and any excess would go back to the home owner. Unless the bank was using an unusual financing device called a land sale contract, the legal title would stay with the owner until the sale was completed. Many states these days have previsions for redeeming the house before or in some cases even after the sale.

El Rojo
February 25, 2003, 08:54 PM
Don the only reason I really don't mind the cops surrounding my house is what are you going to do about it? If they accidentally surround your house, what can you really say or do? If it happens, it happens. The only way to effect change here would be to start a campaign to eliminate SWAT teams and their responses unless shots are fired. Of course that isn't going to happen because the entire purpose (at least what they tell us and the original purpose) is to peacefully end potentially violent situations. That is why they go "overboard".

And of course, if the Branch Davidians had just come out peacefully to talk to BATF, everything would have been fine, right? And the Weavers--what the heck were Kevin and the boy thinking? They should have gone back to the cabin, called the Cour D'Alene PD and asked them why men in camouflage body armor with silenced submachine guns and automatic rifles were hiding in their woods.Why use these two examples? How do they apply in this situation? To answer you literally, if the Branch Davidians would have come out, they might be alive today. Being fried certainly isn't helping them any. The Weaver situation was just a bad situation that really couldn't have been avoided. Dog runs after cops, as dogs do. Cops shoot dog. Owners defend themselves and get upset about dog, shoot back. Cops get hit. Cops hit armed youth. FBI murders his wife. The only good thing about these scenarios is that the heat that came from their bundling has changed the situation. They often don't respond the same anymore to those situations. But how do they apply to the cops accidentally surrounding your house? Did they "accidentally" surround Mt. Carmel? Did they accidentally surround Ruby Ridge? No, they had a specific purpose for being there, no matter how flawed it was. In this scenario, they responded to a residential neighborhood where they believed an armed intruder was inside the house. Big deal! He wasn't even there!!! So maybe next time they do more research before going in. Maybe next time they run the plates on the car and find out it doesn't belong to the man in question, but to someone else in the neighborhood. Maybe they did learn from this situation.

Sometimes life is just tough. Sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. What are you going to do about it? That is life. We can sit around and complain about it, but what good is it going to do? Sure someone screwed up in San Antonio. So do we eliminate all SWAT teams because of it? That is pretty wishful thinking. Sorry I sound so nonchalant about it all. It is because of my personal belief that I am not in absolute control. I believe that things happen for a reason beyond my reasoning or comprehension. Sometimes those things are going to be bad, and I might not like them. The only thing I can do is respond to the best of my abilities. If I make it, great. If I don't, then it was meant to be. You can't control it. Why worry about it? Prepare for the worst, train yourself mentally, and give it your all. Cops surround my house, that is what I am going to try to do. If they shoot my dog while I am taking it for a walk and I shoot them back, what can I do? Life sucks sometimes. Catch 22. I can't throw off the entire system just because of one bad misfortune. That just isn't realistic. Now a negligent series of misfortunes? Sure, the system needs reworked. Do we have a negligent series of misfortunes here? It is hard to make that case on "what ifs". In this situation, everyone reacted reasonably and safely. No one was injured. Everyone did their jobs the way they were supposed to once the event started rolling. Cops sometimes are competent and SWAT teams don't always have to use their "toys". What if someone would have got hurt? Yeah what if? What if a police car crashes through my wall right now and I shoot him thinking he is an armed robber and then when his back up gets here they shoot me thinking I just shot a cop, but it really was an armed robber that stole his car, and my wife comes home and commits suicide and then my sister who owes me a ton of money ends up getting my insurance money? What if. :rolleyes:

JohnBT
February 26, 2003, 12:26 PM
Tamara - My location is listed under my name to the left of every post :)
__________

So now it turns out that the original report was in error and the mortgage holder has not yet foreclosed? Or was the second report in error?

Maybe none of it ever happened. Reporters have made up stories before. One that comes to mind worked for the Washington Post and won a Pulitzer for a series of interviews that never took place. Oops.

John

SquirrelNuts
February 26, 2003, 02:58 PM
Isin't there a law in Florida about printing and guns being visible? I was under the impression you were violating some law if you had a gun in your house and someone saw it through the window.

LE tends to have a problem when they see several guns. I got stopped in Douglasville, GA with 7 or 8 guns in my truck. He called for backup and asked me time and time again why I had so many guns. They just could not believe that I was just out shooting for fun. Luckily I did not have everything I owned, or I bet I would have spent the night as their guest. I thought I was going to jail that night from the way they acted.

This is not the case for all LE though. My best friend just became a cop and I know if he stops someone with a gun(s) he will be asking about it for his own personal interest.

What ever happened to the days where, in a post I read on here the other day, you throw a shotgun over your shoulder and get on your bike. The cop/sherriff stops you to talk about the gun to compare it to what he has.

I open carry all the time and try to pretend that I live in those days.

-SquirrelNuts

George Hill
February 26, 2003, 06:21 PM
Dude lived there for 25 years. No one has ever had a problem with him. This guy as had the funds to buys some guns... nice collection. Then hits some bad times. Bank decided to yank his home 25 years into a a 30 year morgage.
I feel for this cat. Poor guy! Let's look at the situation on a more personal level. What happened to him?

He was either in the IT field, or invested in ENRON.

I suspect that this guy will be able to pull it all out of the fire. If people would just leave him alone. I can't fault the police reaction in this. Or the folks in his hood. These are paranoid times. And 200 guns is probably a whole lot more firepower than what anyone in a banking job has ever seen. I am most pleased that the cops determined "They are Legal, so we Leave them." This cat as a better investment than any stock or bond. Guns never loose value.
Notice they never mentioned what type of arms they were. Probably WWII collectable items?

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