[madcowburger]

The court ruled that no one's civil rights were violated. Gee, I wonder why I'm not surprised.:rolleyes:

I just heard it on the news. I have no links yet or I'd post one.

If I could, I'd also post a copy of the famous picture of the helmeted agent with the MP5 submachine gun pointed at a screaming Elian and his uncle. I don't have the computer skills to do that, though. That picture and the pictures of the Waco inferno pretty much defined law enforcement for me during the Clinton years. I can't see that much has changed for the better either. The main thing I have against Bush is that he *hasn't* broken very sharply with Clinton era practices. I pretty much knew I'd been stung when Bush *didn't* reopen Pennsylvania Avenue, and then when he let the Secret Service frisk and wand all the little kids attending the 2001 White House Easter egg hunt.:barf:

MCB

[stv]

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2001/breaking-news-photography/works/elian2.gif

[stv]

Though this one is a little funnier.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1203972

[joab]

Exactly who's civil rights were supposed to be violated when a kidnapped child from a soveriegn nation is returned to his rightful parent and guardian?

If this had happened to an American child. Say an Iranian father atkes his daughter back against the wishes of the mother, would we be up in arms about the Iranian goverments lack of response in helping reunite the mother and an American child?

A communist father is still a father regardless of what we think of his political leanings.

[madcowburger]

Well, to me the pictures speak for themselves, especially the "photoshopped" one with Clinton and his ol' goodbuddy Fidel in it.

It was Clinton's and Reno's gun-pointing, threat-and-obscenity-spewing, holy-image-smashing, neighbor-gassing, journalist-beating goon squad (some of them literally masked) who *kidnapped* Elian and fed him back into the gaping maw of a mass-murdering dictatorship, from which his mother had died to deliver him. Her sacrifice was thus nullified and rendered vain.

His uncle and other Miami relatives *rescued* him. But they did not have the power to keep him safe for long. There wasn't a single gun among them.

MCB (who'd rather be dead than red too)

[Shield529]

I may not agree with the tactics used, but that child belonged with his father. His father did nothing wrong and committed no crime that would warrant his child being kept from him.
It sickens me that anyone has to live in a place like Cuba, but when they refused to return the child to his father the law had to be enforced.

If the child had been kidnapped from another state and the police refused to retrive him, everyone would have attacked us for that to. Police can never be right it seems

[joab]

The mother took the child without the father's knowledge or permission and endangered the child's life so that she could run off to America with her boyfriend

The media hungry relatives refuse to return the child even after due process a court had found that they father had the legal right to custody.

The relatives committed themselves to illegally withholding the child from the legal guardian (kidnapping)

The authorities acted in amanner befitting rescuing a kidnap victim from criminals that vowed to resist

Believe it or not even communists love their children and not everybody thinks America is the promised land.
That misconception does not exclude them fom being dutiful parents

[buy guns]

illegal aliens dont have rights.

at least his finger is off the trigger.

[joab]

illegal aliens dont have rights. Cubans who make it here are not considered illegals, that was one of the sticking points in the matter

[nico]

I agree with Joab and Shield529. What would everyone on THR say if a child were taken to Iran by their father so that they could live a "better" and/or more "moral" life (quotes because both terms are subjective)? Would you still think that one parent kinapping their child trumps the rights of the other parent? If that's so, then why don't you defend anyone who kidnaps their own child (from the other parent). I mean, afterall, they're just trying to give their child a better life.:barf:

[madcowburger]

Well, luckily for me I don't have any kids for some vengeful, greedy ex-spouse or the government to use as weapons to destroy me.

But I'd still rather be dead than red.

MCB

[O.F.Fascist]

IMO the father was a coward, he was unwilling to go there himself to get his son.

I'm sure he and Elian are having a grand ole time back in Cuba. :rolleyes:

[joab]

IMO the father was a coward, he was unwilling to go there himself to get his son You mean it was a cowardly act to not break the laws of this country especially when they were working in his favor?

What purpose would be served by his going into an illegal situation where he was outnumber 100 to 1 and would end up dead or in jail or deported and have absolutly zero chance of getting his son out?

How would this serve to reunite him and his son?

[O.F.Fascist]

You mean it was a cowardly act to not break the laws of this country especially when they were working in his favor?

What laws are you talking about? He was let into this country legally but instead of heading down there to pick up his son that he supposidly cares so much for he decided to let the government go in gun drawn.

The family in Florida pretty much said they would give Elian to his father if he went to get him.

Isnt that how family is supposed to work, the mother died so the rest of the family took care of the son, the father could have been thankful that someone was watching out for his son while he wasnt around and could have gotten him personally, instead he calls the police, what kind of bull???? is that. :rolleyes:

[joab]

The family repeatedly denied the father access to the child and adamantly refused to give him up

[joab]

Isnt that how family is supposed to work, the mother died so the rest of the family took care of the son, the father could have been thankful that someone was watching out for his son while he wasnt around and could have gotten him personally, instead he calls the police, what kind of bull???? is that. I suggest you do some more research on the Elian story before you start eye rolling

[DMF]

The court ordered the child returned to his father. There was a legitimate concern that the people that had Elian might respond to anyone coming to get the child with violence. The overwhelming force was necessary to discourage violent resistance. Two guys in suits and ties don't do much to discourage violent resistance.

Calling the father a coward is ridiculous. He would have put Elian and himself in danger had he tried to confront the people holding Elian.

No civil rights violation because they were carrying out lawful orders of the court, and did nothing during the raid that violated anyone's rights.

Good op, kid got out safe, and no one was hurt.

[O.F.Fascist]

He would have put Elian and himself in danger had he tried to confront the people holding Elian.

I guess we will never know since he never even tried.

Had he gone there in person and had they denied him his son or attacked him in any manner then that would be one thing.

However the father didnt even try, and do me that says alot.

Instead of going over and trying to work it out like normal human beings he turns to the feds. Yes that definately deserves a :rolleyes:

[liliysdad]

Huh....going to the authorities before initiating a poddsibly violent confrontation...sounds like the RIGHT thing to do to me.

[DRZinn]

EXACTLY the attitude we expect from LEO's anymore. Thank you.

[sendec]

If you'll recall, the ninjas handed the kid off to a plainclothes female agent ASAP. No cop in their right mind would have gone into that hornet's nest any different than they did.

Once again, emotion and hysteria trumps reason and logic.

How could this have been avoided? If the "uncles" holding Elian had followed the court order none of this would have occurred. But they didnt want to play by the rules.

I find it horribly ironic that people who came here voluntarily are'nt willing to abide by our law.

[buy guns]

Cubans who make it here are not considered illegals, that was one of the sticking points in the matter

wow i didnt know that. why is that?

[Art Eatman]

Question: Who took that picture?

Art

[flatrock]

Cubans who make it to American soil are considered political refugees and are granted asylum.

[cloudkiller]

the government returning the child to his father because of Cuba and communism, are opening up a huge social can of worms. Family law is suposed to supercede all else. Mother dead, father wants custody, he should have it unless a court deems him unfit. End of story. If living in Cuba renders him unfit for being a father, then the US government should start taking away the children of every KKK household, every neo-nazi household, every religously reactionary household that advocates restrictions on the rights of citizens on any basis.

The United States has a tremendously hypocritical attitude towards Cuba. The government of Castro is evil and tyrannical, but came into being as a reaction to a US puppet regime that was evil and tyrannical. We coddle China and give money to dictators everwhere in the world, but we treat Cuba as a living embodiment of Nazi Germany, which it isn't.

[flatrock]

Question: Who took that picture?

It was a reporter who camped out at the relatives house with their permission. They knew the raid was going to happen, it was just a matter of when.

The reporter received the family's permission to stay there so he could get photos of the raid so they could spin it in the news.

They were ignoring a lawful court order that they turn over Elian. They had already tried to fight it in the corts, and lost.

I don't find it surprising that the lawsuit was thrown out. I find it surprising that it took this long to be thrown out.

It was the government's responsibility to return the child to his father. They only did what they had to do.

[Rebar]

From what I understand, the father wasn't involved in the child's upbringing, his mother was basically a single mother. Castro "persuaded" the father to make a fuss, but wouldn't let him come to the US for fear he would defect.

What I know is that the child did not and does not now live with his father, he was put in a orphanage and paraded around when Castro wants to show off that he "beat" America.

[JPL]

"What I know is that the child did not and does not now live with his father, he was put in a orphanage and paraded around when Castro wants to show off that he "beat" America."

Your proof of that statement is?

[joab]

wow i didnt know that. why is that? Cause we're still pissed at Castro for telling us to take our Monroe Doctrine and stuf fit.From what I understand, the father wasn't involved in the child's upbringing, his mother was basically a single mother. Castro "persuaded" the father to make a fuss, but wouldn't let him come to the US for fear he would defect. All parties agrreed the he was an attentive father activly involve with the boys life and upbringing
Allegations that he was abusive towards the wife were made towards the end of the "standoff" and were generally considered to be last dirch character assasination to gave sympathy for their position

[Daniel T]

EXACTLY the attitude we expect from LEO's anymore. Thank you.

You know, there are valid critisims that can be leveled at Law Enforcement, but responding to liliysdad's statement this way is not one of them.

Huh....going to the authorities before initiating a poddsibly violent confrontation...sounds like the RIGHT thing to do to me.

Sound like common sense to me. Having a gun doesn't make you the Lone Ranger and charging unnecessarily into danger will probably make you dead.

[obiwan1]

The kid was illegal. He never made "feet dry" without Coast Guard help. His closest living relative was his father who wanted him back. All else is moot:banghead:

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

It was the last, dying wish of the child's mother that her son be brought to America. That way he could grow up in a country where words like "freedom" and "prosperity" are fact, not government propaganda drivel.

She took a desperate risk in her attempt to flee Cuba. She knew what the dangers were ahead of time, and yet she still felt that bringing her son to America was worth risking both of their lives for.

She succeeded in getting her son out of Cuba, at the cost of her own life. Little Elian was safely in the care of his aunts and uncles in Miami, people who had also made the trip and evidently agreed that it was worth the risk to get out of Cuba.

Thoroughly embarassed by the situation, Fidel Castro scrounges up the child's deadbeat father and has him complain to the US Gov't about how argrieved he is over the "loss" of his "son". Clinton and Reno are eager to cooperate; they order the child be returned to Cuba. Nevermind that long standing practice was to grant asylum to any Cuban refugee who sets foot on American soil.

The child's family in Miami, those people who best understand what that would mean for the boy, unanimously refuse to hand over the child. Feeling the political embarassment spreads to themselves, Clinton and Reno send in the SWAT team to take the boy out of his new home and send him back to Cuba.

The bottom line is that Elian's mother died in vain, thanks to the actions of the Clinton administration.



It is incomprehensible to me that anyone can try to defend this.

[DRZinn]

You know, there are valid critisims (sic) that can be leveled at Law Enforcement, but responding to liliysdad's statement this way is not one of them.

I think it's entirely valid. It's the attitude held by people who think we should rely on the government to solve our problems for us, and always go running to Big Brother (sorry, I meant Daddy) when things get rough.

I don't mean that going to the government was the wrong action *in this case.*

[JPL]

Roland,

And all of that negates the Father's parental rights, how?

What proof do you have that the father was, in fact, a deadbeat?

Or is that simply a wild supposition?

It's incomprehensible to me that you'd support what would boil down to state sponsored political kidnapping.

It's very easy for us to say "Well, WE know what's best for the boy because he lives in a horrible Communist backwater..."

Tell me, how do you feel about the children from other horrible backwaters, like Guatemala, Mexico, etc.?

[nico]

The bottom line is that Elian's mother died in vain, thanks to the actions of the Clinton administration.
so what if it were an Iranian man trying to take his American born child to Iran? After all, he just wants a better life for his child and doing anything to return the child to its mother would make all his efforts in vain.

His mother kidnapped him. Returning the child to his father is one of the few good things the clinton administration did.

[joab]

It was the last, dying wish of the child's mother that her son be brought to America. That way he could grow up in a country where words like "freedom" and "prosperity" are fact, not government propaganda drivel. A decision she came to without consulting the father who's living wish as legal guardian that his son be returned to himShe took a desperate risk in her attempt to flee Cuba. She knew what the dangers were ahead of time, and yet she still felt that bringing her son to America was worth risking both of their lives for. The father did not agree and as legal guardian wanted the child returnedShe succeeded in getting her son out of Cuba, at the cost of her own life. Little Elian was safely in the care of his aunts and uncles in Miami, people who had also made the trip and evidently agreed that it was worth the risk to get out of Cuba. The Father did not agree with the political ideology of the Miami relatives who were illegally withholding custody from him and as the legal next of kin and guardian wanted his son returnedThoroughly embarassed by the situation, Fidel Castro scrounges up the child's deadbeat father and has him complain to the US Gov't about how argrieved he is over the "loss" of his "son". "All parties involved agreed that he was an attentive father activly involved in the child's life"
Google the statement in quotes for more research I haveThe bottom line is that Elian's mother died in vain, thanks to the actions of the Clinton administration. She died while fleeing with a child that had been taken without the father's consent. Had she lived there very well might have been an international custody fight which probably would have ended differently but she didn't so as the surviving guardian the Father wanterd his child back

The wishes of well meaning in-laws do not trump the natural rights of a father no matter what his political leanings are.

[JPL]

I find it very interesting that those who are holding out the Miami relatives in such high regard are either ignoring or forgetting just how they also used the boy as a political and public relations icon in their efforts to embarass the Castro regiem.

They were as self-serving, if not more so, as the others who were involved in this fiasco.

Oh, if I'm not mistaken, that's NOT Elian's uncle holding him.

That was one of the fishermen who pulled him from the water, and who quickly became a friend of the family.

[nico]

That was one of the fishermen who pulled him from the water, and who quickly became a friend of the family
that's right. Regardless of one's opinion, it's pretty rediculous to deny that Elian would have been a meal ticket for his American-living relatives.

[joab]

The kid was illegal. He never made "feet dry" without Coast Guard help. His closest living relative was his father who wanted him back. All else is moot To be fair 2 fishermen rescued Elian at sea not the Coast GuardFrom what I understand, the father wasn't involved in the child's upbringing, his mother was basically a single mother. Castro "persuaded" the father to make a fuss, but wouldn't let him come to the US for fear he would defect. I forgot to add that the father had legal custody of the child in Cuba the mother had weekend visitation. I bet you a buck and a half she planned on being out of the country for more than a weekend

[JPL]

"I forgot to add that the father had legal custody of the child in Cuba..."

Whoa!

Now that I didn't remember.

Sort of works against the accusations that Juan Gonzales is a deadbeat, no?

[Molon Labe]

Cuba is a prison. Can we agree on that?

Let's say a husband and wife have a son. And the parents get divorced. If the husband robs a bank and goes to jail for 10 years, would the court order the father has complete custody of the son? Of course not. A court would never send a child to jail, despite the fact the father would be in jail with him.

Cuba is a prison. And we sent a child to live in a prison. How evil.

[nico]

by that logic, most of the rest of the world is a prison. Should we go into China and bring all their children here? How about Iran? Should we do this even if it's against the will of the child's living parents?

[JPL]

"Cuba is a prison. Can we agree on that?"

No, no we can't.

Cuba is a SOVERIGN nation, recognized internationally, the same way that the United States recognizes Chinese or Vietnamese soverignty.

We can say euphamistically that Cuba is a prison, but that's not a statement of fact, it's a statement of perception based on our own beliefs.

Judging by some of the screaming and yelling I see on this board about the Patriot Act and other post-9/11 laws and actions, it could also be claimed that the United States is something of a prison.

Don't try to confuse the issue by claiming that American penal institution is the same as Cuba.

[Molon Labe]

"Cuba is a prison. Can we agree on that?"

No, no we can't. I understand.

Cuba is not a prison.

Oceania is at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia.

Oceania was at war with Eurasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

Cuba is not a prison.

Cuba is not a prison.

[joab]

Cuba is a prison. Can we agree on that? No I don't agree that Cuba is a prison.
But I have no first hand experience on the island. How much have you have.
Any reports we get here will be filtered through the propaganda machine long before we see it.

The same things I here about Cuba, including your assertion that it is an oppressive prison where daily life consists of trying to survive under the boot of murderous tyranny, I heard and believe about Vietnam.

When I went there I found none of this to be true. I found people living at a level of poverty that we cannot fathom, and rules and laws that violate all of our revered civil rights.
But nobody was dissappearing in the middle of the night and the children were for the most part healthy and happy and above all loved by their parents, even the children of Party officials.
Let's say a husband and wife have a son. And the parents get divorced. If the husband robs a bank and goes to jail for 10 years, would the court order the father has complete custody of the son? Of course not. A court would never send a child to jail, despite the fact the father would be in jail with him.
Let's say a husband and wife have a son. And the parents get divorced. If the husband robs an apple orchard would a court order the child to eat oranges.
Your example here has no bearing on real life as the only crime the father has committed was being born into, and being loyal to, a comunist political doctrine against your wishes

[sendec]

I've seen a prison - Cuba's no prison.

For those of you whose bowels have gone liquid over this, let's remember that this is a done deal and really was, or should have been pretty easy to adjudicate. We can argue about the state of affairs in Cuba, but that does'nt change the fact that the courts ran their course and made a decision based on law. Prior experience has proven that exactly one half of the parties to a legal action will not like the final decision. However, they still must abide by it.

To be blunt, if we took a survey of all the world's dungheaps and third-world poop-holes, I don't think Cuba would fare as badly as some, like Myanmar, Chechnya, Somalia and the like. I am certain life there is no picnic, but it could be worse, like being held captive in a closet with some fisherman who views you as his ticket to a Lexus.

[Standing Wolf]

We've got room for millions upon millions of illegal aliens from Mexico, but not one Cuban kid whose mother died bringing him to freedom?

[Deavis]

hahahahaha! I just noticed Fidel PS'd into the back. Now that is funny.

[nico]

We've got room for millions upon millions of illegal aliens from Mexico, but not one Cuban kid whose mother died bringing him to freedom?
I'd send them back just as fast. Why do so many people ignore the fact that if this were an American child taken to another country by one parent against the other parent's will we'd all call it kidnapping

[joab]

We've got room for millions upon millions of illegal aliens from Mexico, but not one Cuban kid whose mother died bringing him to freedom? Apparently you've never been to Miami, if you look around you will find a business or two that have signs staing "We speak English" If you don't find one and don't speak Spanish good luck.

If this had been a simple matter of a mother dying to bring her to America he would still be here.
The problem comes from thr fact that she was a non-custodial parent who took the child illegally.
According to American and international law it's kidnapping and the child must be returned to the rightful guardian
The father was awarded custody in the divorce no accusations have ever been mead, except here, that he was unfit. Excepting the fact that he was a comunist which again according to our laws everyone has a right to political freedom.

[mountainclmbr]

Isn't selling children into slavery illegal?

[JPL]

"Ignorance is strength."

Yes.

Apparently so. :rolleyes:

[joab]

Isn't selling children into slavery illegal? Yeah, so is jay walking and cock fighting.
Are you implying that Mr.Gonzales sold Elian

[Molon Labe]

Cuba is not a prison.

Cuba is not a prison.

I figure if I say it often enough, I’ll convince myself it is true.

Cuba is not a prison.

Cuba is not a prison.

Cuba is not a prison...


"If you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth." - Joseph Göbbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda

[JPL]

You've got a great role model there, Mr. Labe.

Unfortunately, what you don't understand is that Herr Gobels is talking about telling a bona fide lie, an antithesis to fact, such as "The sky is black & white zebra stripe."

You contine to proclaim that Cuba is a prison, yet you don't understand how that's a perception, an assessment, a belief on your part, but not a fact in evidence.

If quoting dead Nazis is the best you can come up with for a debating technique, I'm sorely disappointed.

[joab]

I figure if I say it often enough, I’ll convince myself it is true. Instead of using cutsy paraphrases of other people's words, why don't you try explaining your position with your own words and trying to convince someone else that Cuba is a prison.
In other words don't repeat yourself explain yourself.

Please explain why a prisoner would voluntarily go back into a prison when he had escaped , and would have been given asylum and a certain amount of celebrity if he had chosen to stay out.

Juan Gonzales does not share your view of America, communism, or what is in the best interest of HIS child.
Believe it or not roughly half the people in America will not agree with the way you will raise your children
And a large percentage of the world's population does not agree with your opinion of America

There's a group of guy's in a desert right now that will back me up on that

[Molon Labe]

You contine to proclaim that Cuba is a prison, yet you don't understand how that's a perception, an assessment, a belief on your part, but not a fact in evidence. But you’re wrong. I spent all night saying "Cuba is not a prison" over and over. Today I am a reformed person, and I now believe Cuba is not a prison. :) But I'm still confused about something... is Oceania at war with Eastasia or Eurasia? I last heard Oceania was at war with Eurasia. And Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. But today the telescreen said Oceania is at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. I am confused. Where's my bottle of Victory Gin?

[carpettbaggerr]

Please explain why a prisoner would voluntarily go back into a prison when he had escaped , and would have been given asylum and a certain amount of celebrity if he had chosen to stay out. You've never heard of the Helsinki Syndrome?
It was the government's responsibility to return the child to his father. They only did what they had to do Children aren't property. The Court is responsible for the child's well-being.

[nico]

carpetbagger, what happens when the government decides that children shouldn't live in a home that has guns in it and decides to take yours. . . for the child's wellbeing of course.

[joab]

what happens when the government decides that children shouldn't live in a home that has guns in it and decides to take yours. . . for the child's wellbeing of course. Don't get me started on that one nico, I've already had my go around with DCS You've never heard of the Helsinki Syndrome? If you mean the Stockholm Syndrome, yes I have. How does that apply here?
Maybe you could make a case for political indoctrination, but someone over there could make the same claim about Americans Children aren't property. The Court is responsible for the child's well-being Keep that in mind when your she devil ex runs off to some upstate backwoods town in New York with your son

[JPL]

"Where's my bottle of Victory Gin?"

I think you've already had it, but simply convinced yourself that you hadn't.

[JPL]

It's called the Stockholm Syndrome, and it has only ever been observed in individuals who are held in close, continuous contact with their captors, who are often psychologicaly or physically abusive.

It typically also occurs only in individuals whose every life aspect is scripted out by their captors---You will stand here, you will go to the bathroom now, you will eat now, you will sleep now, you will not speak, you will not look directly at us, etc.

None of that is alleged or apparent in Juan Gonzales desire to have his son back in his care.

If anything, Elian himself suffered from a very minor form of Stockholm Syndrome at the hands of the "caring relatives" who initially refused to relinquish custody.

Remember that little self serving video tape of Elian say "No, Daddy, I don't want to go back to Cuba," and quite a few other obviously scripted palliatives?

At 6 years old, it's virtually impossible for any child to form cogent or differentiated thoughts on life in Cuba, or anywhere else, outside of basic daily interaction with his family and friends.

Political and social nuances of the type that the boy spoke about in the video tape are beyond a 6 year old, and were clearly scripted by the relatives.

Why did Elian say those things, then, if he either didn't know what he was saying, or perhaps didn't even believe it?

Anyone who has had children knows that you can get a young child to say, or do, just about anything if the right carrot and stick praise/reward/punishment process is used.

[JPL]

"The Court is responsible for the child's well-being."

Yes, it is, and the court decided that the best interests of the child were served by having him raised by his Father, a decision that the Miami relatives refused to accept as it might deprive them of their political icon, er.... child.

[carpettbaggerr]

Yes, the Stockholm Syndrome. That's what happens when you post as you're falling asleep. And it is one of many reasons why someone would go back to a prison they've just escaped.

Elian Gonzalez was returned to slavery, as if he was the property of his father, rather than a separate individual. Clinton returned him to make a political statement -- he doesn't view Cuba as a slave state.
Maybe you could make a case for political indoctrination, but someone over there could make the same claim about Americans And one of us would be wrong. Do you see no difference between America and Cuba?

[joab]

And one of us would be wrong. Do you see no difference between America and Cuba Yes the difference is black and white. Ask a klucker or a panther about that and you'll get two completely different views too.And it is one of many reasons why someone would go back to a prison they've just escaped. Stockholm generally does not apply to prisoners, it's more of a hostage related affliction

[joab]

Elian Gonzalez was returned to slavery, as if he was the property of his father, rather than a separate individual. Clinton returned him to make a political statement -- he doesn't view Cuba as a slave state. Elian was returned to his father as if he was the prodgeny of his father, rather than an adult with the ability to make his own way in the world. "Clinton" returned the child to abide by international and American child welfare laws (no snickerin). His views of Cuba's political structure were irrelevant.

In your family who has the final say in the decisions made for the 6 year olds. As seperate individuals do they get to decide what school they will go to, whether it be home school or public, do they even got to decide what their daily diet or wardrobe will be? What about curfew do they tell the adults what time they will come in off the street, are they even allowed to be out on the street.

As parents we have the age old right to decide the educational path of our children and to provide for what we feel is in the best interest of our children. those decisions include religious and political views and practices and even where we choose to live with our children.

Many Cubans are not only fleeing political oppression but crushing poverty as well. The poverty problem is caused in a large part by the US embargo.
Vietnam has just as oppressive a goverment, but every person I have ever talked to about why they want to come to America has stated that money was at the root of their desire

[JPL]

"Elian Gonzalez was returned to slavery, as if he was the property of his father, rather than a separate individual."

No court, anywhere in the world as far as I know, has ever ruled that a 6-year-old is an emancipated individual.

While he is not the "property" of his father, neither was he the "property" of his mother, nor was he the "property" of the Miami relatives.

It's called child CUSTODY, wherein the responsible adult is the custodian/guardian of the child, and under auspice of law makes the decisions on the rearing of the child.

Claiming that he was returned to slavery is nothing more than hyperbole, and you know it.

[JPL]

"Stockholm generally does not apply to prisoners, it's more of a hostage related affliction"

It has been reported in prisons, and other situations where prisoners/hostages are in close proximity to their captors, but trying to describe Juan Gonzales desire to return to his homeland with his son as Stockholm Syndrome is far fetched to the point of border on fairy tale.

People here make it sound as if leaving one's whole life behind -- family, friends, and culture -- is about the same as walking to the corner store for a quart of milk.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[Art Eatman]

Closed by me.

Re-opened by request...

Art

[Art Eatman]

Bump