Today I feared for my safety and pulled my gun - lessons learned


PDA






dukeofurl
August 26, 2004, 08:09 AM
Let me open this story with a few curse words: GOD ????ING DAMNIT!

Thats better. Now this is not the story where 3 bad guys ambush me while I'm pumping gas. That seems to be the usual self defense scenario that is practiced.

I went out with the guys - met them at the bar at Chilis. We took Kill Bill Volume 2 over to a friends place and watched it over a 6 pack of Amber Bock.

Went to dennys for a late night breakfast. I left there a bit after 5AM.

????, I've got a semi-flat tire. I'll fix it when I get home which isnt too far away.

I get home and I'm grabbing all my stuff, cellphone, et al. I open the door and the first thing that happens is I see this furry looking creature getting ready to stroll up to my door. I slam the door shut and instinctively grab my 45 I keep in the glovebox. I cant take it once around the block - because I might make it halfway there and with my luck the damn tire would go completely flat.

Now, some situational awareness here - Its 5:30 AM. I'm in my car in my driveway holding a 45 that is cocked, unlocked, and unchambered. My first order of business: LOAD THE GODDAMN GUN! Many people seem to underestimate that this part is the first thing that comes to mind. Its not as fast as most people who carry without a round chambered make it to be.

So I'm watching this dog stroll around my car several times, walk between the other cars in the driveway and right up to my front door. ????ing hell.

I do some fast thinking: This dog could be rabid, could be infected with some other horrible human disease, or could just be a stray walking around. Seeing that I'm a gun owner and thus hope for the best, plan for the worst - I stuck the Para between the gearshift and my front seat as I reached for my phone.

"911 - what is your emergency?"
"Is animal control emergency?"
"No, call them at this number"
*click*

*dialing*
"Hi this is animal control! We're not open right now! If this is an emergency call 911."
"Great."

*dialing*
"911 - what is your emergency?"
"Listen, I dont think this is too high on your priority list but there's a dog thats circling my car and the outside of my residence. I dont want to get out of my car in fear of bodily injury/rabies/etc... and I do have a gun in the glove compartment. I want to get inside my home but if this dog takes a run at me, I'm gonna have to drop him.
"Can you tell what kind of dog it is?"
"Its 5:30AM and my headlights only go one way - thats kinda hard right now."
"Ok, sit tight and we'll send an officer out. It may be a few minutes.
"Well thats easy for you to say, you dont need to go to the bathroom!"

So that was 5:27AM. I roll down the window and try to listen for movement. I hear the pitter-patter of paws on asphalt and look in my rearview mirror to see that the dog is making another round.

At this point I realize I'm a ????ing wuss. I look at my watch. 5:45AM. I wonder how long it would take for the county to send ANYBODY out if I call back and say "No need for service, I just shot the little furry bastard" - and then deal with the deluge of "shots fired" calls. Too bad discharging a firearm in city limits is a municipal offense, otherwise I'd take matters into my own hands.

So its now 5:55AM. Completley pitch dark out and my view of the front door is obscured by bushes and I'm basically walking blindly. I decide to leave the headlights on and take the para to see if I can make my way IN the house and away from the possible threat. I sweep inbetween the cars, nothing. In front of the cars, nothing. My para is in my strong hand with my weak hand holding my keys.

I manage to evade the elusive cannine thus far. I pie the corner to the right and walk up to my front door.

Pitch ????ing black. Damn. The para is at the ready. I walk up and see nothing. I walk to the front door - and I feel a bump. The dog is right between my legs. he darted out of the way and I made my way to the front door. I'm fumbling with my keys at this point. Some of the lights from the car bounced off the wall of the house so I could see the animals eyes about 5 feet away from me as my back is against the wall.

My Para is leveled at the 2 glowing green orbs. Oh I wish I had night sights, that would have made pointing a LOT easier. I'm staring at the dog and he's staring at me. My heart is in my throat and I said to myself - If this thing takes one step towards me, permanent hearing loss and city ordinances be dammed; I'm going to shoot this mother????er. What seemed like hours only took seconds. The dog turned his head and walked away. I fumbled with my keys and got into the house.

At this point a family member wakes up and he's seeing me close the door while I'm weilding a 45 at almost 6 in the morning. I tell him to grab my Benelli 12 gauge shotgun out of the closet and when the cops show up to let me know.

I pay a well overdue visit to the bathroom. Naturally my cell phone rings while I'm in there. Its animal control. Note: Time from initial call to callback is approximately 30 minutes.

I find out they do not respond to these calls at 6AM and that they have 2 officers covering a municipal area of 1,018 square miles at 6AM. Yay for municipal spending!

They tell me that since I made it inside I'm no longer on their priority list. Call back at 7AM, one hour for those of us who werent watching the clock - if the dog comes back.

Lessons learned:

Night sights. HAVE THEM.
Flashlights. HAVE THEM TOO!
Cell phones are great.
Have a plan.
Have a backup plan.
Keep the damn gun loaded.

If you enjoyed reading about "Today I feared for my safety and pulled my gun - lessons learned" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
techmike
August 26, 2004, 08:27 AM
Lessons learned:

Night sights. HAVE THEM.
Flashlights. HAVE THEM TOO!
Cell phones are great.
Have a plan.
Have a backup plan.
Keep the damn gun loaded.





Good lessons learned! From your post I'm not sure why you reacted the way you did....seems a bit much for a stray dog. If it were a MZB circling your car it would be different.

dukeofurl
August 26, 2004, 08:29 AM
Its one of those things - dog, wolf, who knows.

I dont know where you come from but possibly rabid animals are a threat to my way of life. The phrase "Once bitten, twice shy" has to have come from somewhere.

juggler
August 26, 2004, 08:48 AM
You're not a dog person, are you? Not to make light of your phobia, I have friends who aren't fond of animals... they just don't come over my house often (2 dogs, 2 cats and a horse) :D

I like the fact that you learned from the experience. Here are a couple of thoughts, though.

I see this furry looking creature getting ready to stroll up to my door
A rabid dog wouldn't stroll anywhere...stagger, charge or run away but not stroll.
The dog is right between my legs.
This is the way my dogs (a Lab and Lab/golden mix) say "Pet me!" If the dog were aggressive or rabid he would've gone for your throat or ankles, not your family jewels. Domesticated dogs also like to do the crotch sniff, as many can testify to.

I get the idea that you don't care for, or know much about animals. That's cool........ like I said, I have friends who aren't animal lovers and they are fine people, even if their attitude is confusing to me. I can't imagine never having a furry companion......always have and always will, to the best of my ability to care for them.

I'd say if you think this has a chance of happening again you might want to research what an aggressive posture in an animal looks like. Ears back, teeth bared, tail between the legs (submissive, but don't corner them) etc.

No need to shoot Snoopy if he's just being friendly.

Yes, I know, he shouldn't be out loose scaring people. Call animal control back at 7 and have them pick him up. No loss of hearing, no city ordinances to worry about and no mess to clean up.

TrapperReady
August 26, 2004, 08:48 AM
Does your car have a horn? :scrutiny:

dukeofurl
August 26, 2004, 09:03 AM
Thanks for all the advice.

It was dark and I really couldnt tell what was, next time I'll have a flashlight. For me it was pretty much a business decision - 50 cent hollowpoint and $75 fine or $300 ER bill + shots.

I think if I used the horn at 5:30 AM my neighbors would shoot ME.

cpileri
August 26, 2004, 09:07 AM
pepper spray. seriously, i carry a Fox Labs for jjust the situation you described. DOnt want to kill the bugger, just run him off somewhere to decontaminate his nose/eyes.
C-

MP5
August 26, 2004, 09:22 AM
pepper spray. seriously, i carry a Fox Labs for jjust the situation you described. DOnt want to kill the bugger, just run him off somewhere to decontaminate his nose/eyes.
C-


I bought some Mace for just that sort of circumstance (and for aggressive two-legged critters since I don't CCW yet). Fortunately, I'm good with animals and haven't had any nasty confrontations with dogs that I couldn't calmly back away from without weapon use. I've come uncomfortably close, though.

A reminder to dog owners: please be safe and courteous and leave your dogs locked in your house or yard to avoid the dog injuring a kid or neighbor's pet, or an adult blasting your pet with OC or bullets. Also, joggers/walkers like me don't enjoy over-friendly dogs jumping all over us and getting slobber and mud on our clothes :)

BeLikeTrey
August 26, 2004, 09:42 AM
Knowing me and every dog is a "puppy", i'd have probably been playing with him. (he'd probably be currently residing with me as well.) Dogs around my house know how to spell sucker: T R E Y. sorry your morning sucked ;) All in all- good lessons learned and luckily not in a more serious way or with bad consequences.

Cacique500
August 26, 2004, 09:48 AM
...What Jiggler said...

From your story the dogs actions were not threatening and I'm glad you didn't overreact and shoot it. You would've busted a cap in somebodys pet.

I was working in my garage the other day and this huge black dog walks in (at least 75-100 lbs)...scared the crap out of me initially - until I saw her 'body language' - tail wagging, tongue out, ears up.

I put my hand down for her to check out and she came over with her tail between her legs, ears down.

Wound up giving her several dog bones and now we're best buddies. Turns out she's a neighbors dog from way down the street...she has a collar but no ID on her. But at least once a week now she'll stop by if I'm in the garage to say 'hello'.

Also, it's not unusual where I live for people to be waking up at 5 a.m. and let their dogs out before they go to work ;)

Browns Fan
August 26, 2004, 10:00 AM
Quote:
"I feel a bump. The dog is right between my legs."

I think at this point I woulda lost all bowel/bladder control! :uhoh:

Shootcraps
August 26, 2004, 10:07 AM
Dude, you need to take a pill. Two words come to mind: mountain and mole-hill.


And go easy on the caffeine. The decaffeinated brands taste just as good.

DragonFire
August 26, 2004, 10:21 AM
For me it was pretty much a business decision - 50 cent hollowpoint and $75 fine or $300 ER bill + shots.

I think if I used the horn at 5:30 AM my neighbors would shoot ME.


If a $75 fine or the fact you'd annoy the neighbors factored into your decision to shoot or not, then this wasn't a situation where you should have pulled your gun.

I cant take it once around the block - because I might make it halfway there and with my luck the damn tire would go completely flat.

If you're really in fear for your safety, wouldn't being halfway around the block be better than staying where you feel you're in danger?


I can understanding being afraid of a strange dog in your yard, but I still think its a stretch to say you did right by drawing your gun.

techmike
August 26, 2004, 10:26 AM
I think if I used the horn at 5:30 AM my neighbors would shoot ME.

If the situation was serious enough to warrent you drawing a pistol and dialing 911 I would think waking the neighbors would be the least of your concerns.

I live in Rural Kentucky and rabid animals can be a problem here as well as packs of feral dogs and so called coy-dogs. I have killed agressive feral dogs, but it still sounds to me like you overreacted.


The decaffeinated brands taste just as good.
That is sooo wrong.:evil:

MP5
August 26, 2004, 10:26 AM
Dude, you need to take a pill. Two words come to mind: mountain and mole-hill.

A vicious or rabid dog is no joke. Plenty of dogs can tear a man apart with ease if they're in the mood. OTOH, always walking around with a bunch of weapons, discussing tactics on message boards :) , and half expecting bad guys or rabid dogs to pop out at any moment might put some folks unnecessarily on edge. If your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail. I.e., stay alert and safe, but don't succumb to paranoia or an itchy trigger finger.

(And remember that many, if not most, pet owners consider their animals to be beloved family members. Please don't be in a big hurry to blast someone's loved one.)

SunBear
August 26, 2004, 10:27 AM
A good bright flashlight ( a SureFire perhaps) would render you invisible to the critter, of any type.

If people cared for their pets they wouldn't "let their dogs out" to: (1) p!$$ and $()!+ in other people's yards, (2) strew their garbage for blocks, (3) cause wrecks as motorists swerve to avoid them, and (4) to be run over andmangled or killed.

They are not good neighbors nor do they care at all about their "pets" so probably wouldn't mind if you split Fidos head with a shovel. Most places have a leash law. I care about my pets. T hey do not roam uncontrolled. Happy trails.

srschick
August 26, 2004, 10:27 AM
Can you say small tactical flashlight? (even a cheap Surefire G2 Nitro)
Even two? (one for the pocket, one for the glovebox)

I knew you could!

MP5
August 26, 2004, 10:29 AM
A good bright flashlight ( a SureFire perhaps) would render you invisible to the critter, of any type.

AFAIK, dogs rely more on their keen senses of smell and hearing than their sight.

PzGren
August 26, 2004, 10:31 AM
I am cautious around dogs that I do not know. I am a dog person and get along well with them but there are people that bring out the worst in any dog, it's fear. The smell of fear and the adrenaline outpour of an attacker can not easily be distinguished by most dogs.

Once a dog attacks, it is pretty hard to defend yourself with a handgun in close quarters, mastiff blood can take quite a bit of pain unnoticed in a fight. My Doberman is so lightning fast, I do not see him in the dark, when he jumps around playfully.

I think, your neighbors would be as much disturbed by a gun shot as by a horn, but I would have just rolled the window down, in your case, and talked to the furry little fellow to read his intentions.

Well, you made it safely to the bathroom and learned something, will also get nightsights. Now which ones will you choose, Ameriglos, Mepros,...?

A Surefire is a good choice in any case.

Backwoods
August 26, 2004, 11:01 AM
The last stray dog I had to deal with was also an early morning encounter.

I got off work early and upon arriving home, was just getting out of the car when a very large Rottweiller came trotting around the side of the house. We're talking 125 lbs or better of big, black, mean looking dog, the kind that makes you say "Damn, S.O.B.,M.F.!" while wrapping your hand around the grip of your 1911A1. Which was what I did.

The dog stopped and looked right at me and I took the opportunity to yell "get out of here!", loudly and as sternly as I could manage. That big damn dog CRINGED like a kid caught in the cookie jar, looking scared, embarassed and ashamed all at the same time. That told me all I needed to know and I called him over to me. That dog was the nicest, friendliest dog you could imagine.

Turned out that he belonged up the street at the garage where I get most of my auto repair work done. They were really happy to get him back unharmed as a well traveled State Route runs right past thier business, lots of car and truck traffic.

Don in Ohio

Shootcraps
August 26, 2004, 11:15 AM
A vicious or rabid dog is no joke. Plenty of dogs can tear a man apart with ease if they're in the mood.


Yes, we know this. Bust a cap in Cujo's @ss - good thing. Bust a cap in Lassie's @ss - bad thing. This dog didn't sound like it was Cujo. And it was between his legs. If it was Cujo, he'd be singing soprano.

His reaction was almost - "Holy *****! I finally get to shoot something!!".

Edward429451
August 26, 2004, 11:28 AM
It does sound like you overreacted but the biggest thing I got out of the story was that two calls to the *protecters* yielded nothing that would help you if it had been a cujo dog.

Thumper
August 26, 2004, 11:33 AM
Duke, please elaborate a little more.

A fence sitter would probably have a hard time with your initial post. Surely you had better reason to consider the dog a threat than what you've said so far.

Bainx
August 26, 2004, 11:55 AM
Don't mean to sound like I'm bashing you but, you way, way, way over reacted.

buzz_knox
August 26, 2004, 12:06 PM
AFAIK, dogs rely more on their keen senses of smell and hearing than their sight.

They still don't like bright lights in their face and will shy away from it. At least, that's what I was told on a ride along, and got to see it demonstrated when we answered a domestic, and used flashlights to shy a couple of large dogs away from the front door.

OF
August 26, 2004, 12:08 PM
If a $75 fine or the fact you'd annoy the neighbors factored into your decision to shoot or not, then this wasn't a situation where you should have pulled your gun.Agreed. Although the standard for having a gun in my hand at night alone facing a dog is significantly lower than that when facing a human. But I'd have to chime in that I think you overreacted. Nothing against being cautious, stray animals can certainly be a danger and you should be cautious around unfamiliar animals. But that said, your story gives zero indication of any threatening behavior on the part of the dog. Certainly not anything that would warrant calling 911 and getting the police involved...but then again I wasn't there.

- Gabe

DigMe
August 26, 2004, 12:17 PM
3 words. ... over re action. Ok, maybe that's two words...or is it one. Whatever it is there was certainly no need to write a book about it.

brad cook

TallPine
August 26, 2004, 12:19 PM
Duke, the way you (over) reacted to that dog, maybe you should consider a career in law enforcement ....? :neener:

:D

Shootcraps
August 26, 2004, 12:32 PM
Duke, the way you (over) reacted to that dog, maybe you should consider a career in law enforcement ....?


I hear LAPD is hiring. :evil:

SOT_II
August 26, 2004, 12:53 PM
I didn't know you could leave a loaded gun in an unlocked car in FL.

Werewolf
August 26, 2004, 12:56 PM
Most phobias can be treated successfully by a good psychologist.

Find one and get help before you do something really stupid as a result of your excessive fear and over reaction.

dukeofurl
August 26, 2004, 01:09 PM
Amazing how the monday morning quarterbacks come out.

For the record, I get along great with pets over at friends houses - but wandering dog at 5AM makes me think twice about reaching out and patting lassie on the head.

Sorry about how I 'Overreacted" - that seems to be a term used by a lot of sheeple nowadays.

I dont have health insurance, so a visit to the ER from a possible bite could very well bankrupt my gun budget.

Why is it after something happens you are judged to either have overreacted or not reacted enough? Cant please anyone nowadays....

At any rate I'm glad I didnt have to shoot anything. The moral of the story is being ready, willing, and able. A lot of people can learn from my lack of preparedness.

rock jock
August 26, 2004, 01:14 PM
Duke, this is definitely a story for the Ayoob Files. You're lucky you made it out alive.

BHPshooter
August 26, 2004, 01:14 PM
Duke, I can completely empathize with being scared... it isn't fun, no matter the reason.

A question: Why didn't you just use your cellphone to call whomever was in the house, tell them to turn on the lights, and stand near the door w/ the aforementioned shotgun in case something happened?

I know, hindsight is 20/20; just wondering if you thought of that.

Wes

Werewolf
August 26, 2004, 01:19 PM
Amazing how the monday morning quarterbacks come out.Not amazing at all. :D

You asked. We responded.

Don't want people's opinions then don't post. :uhoh:

Pretty simple concept actually... :rolleyes:

Andrew Rothman
August 26, 2004, 01:19 PM
Duke, if you didn't want Monday morning quarterbacking, you picked the wrong group of sports fans to share your story with! :D

Seems to me that a flashlight could have gone a very long way in solving this problem. How does it happen that you have a gun, but not a flashlight, in your glove compartment? The flashlight is ever so much more useful!

Anyway, glad that you had a painless lesson -- you'll do better next time!

atk
August 26, 2004, 01:23 PM
dukeofearl,

I'd like to echo a question that was stated before: was there anything you didn't already state that made the dog appear dangerous?

From what I read, you were in fear for your life because:

- It was a dog.
- It was in your vicinity, and remained there for several minutes. From what you could tell, it was also circling the vehicle.
- You couldn't see the dog's actions very well, or track where it was located.
- It was 5 AM.
- You really, really had to use the bathroom.


So far, all I see is a nearby animal. I don't think that anyone's faulting you for not wanting to get bit. Nor do I believe that anyone's faulting your lessons learned.

Is there anything else that the dog was doing? Was it growling? Barking? Bearing its teeth? Chewing on a fresh corpse?

I look forward to your reply.

--
atk

juggler
August 26, 2004, 01:28 PM
From your description it doesn't appear that you were in danger at any time, so it looks like over-reaction.
Morning quarterbacking aside, the reason I (and a few others) see it this way because there was no indication that there was a threat. What would you have done without a gun? That's when the suggestions like hit the horn, call your house, roll down the window and yell, etc. come in.

The hammer and nail analogy hit it right on the head... :banghead:

Cacique500, I hope that was a typo..........."Jiggler" would be my wife :D :evil:

spacemanspiff
August 26, 2004, 01:31 PM
if a dog attacks, it has been trained.

when an untrained dog operates on instinct alone, and they approach you, they are not in 'defense' mode. about the only time they would follow through with an attack is if your back is turned to them.

dogs that get aggressive outside their territory are cowards. they will bluff, charge, and try to be the Alpha. your response to them determines how much more aggressive they will be. they can sense your fear, and will feed off that. but if you match their aggressiveness by taking a firm stand, and yelling at them in your meanest voice, they will most often back down.

i've told about my encounters with dogs before, but i can tell it again.

couple years back i was walking home from work, around midnight, its during the winter. normally i walk with headphones on but that night my cd player batteries died. thats the only way i head the dogs paws hitting the asphalt. no growling, no barking, just a pitbull charging towards me from behind. soon as i faced him he veered off sharply. the pit circled me while i kept my front towards him and reached for my industrial size bottle of pepper spray. when he was within 4 feet, i blasted him in the face.
he sneezed it off and came back for seconds. then i started running to put some distance between us.
at that time, i wasnt carrying and didnt even own a gun.

a few months ago, i was heading out, still on my doorstep and a couple kids were walking two dogs, unleashed. one charged towards me and had me cornered. vicious barker, and kept inching closer. the dumb kids didnt even try to restrain the dog, they kept calling it from the street.

the dog eventually gave up but i was very close to dropping that dog right on my doorstep. i couldnt get back in without turning around to unlock the door, and i couldnt get anywhere else.

usually a gruff word or two will dissuade a dog that tries to be aggressive.

dukeofurl
August 26, 2004, 01:41 PM
^^^You (i mean ATK) obviously have a problem with reading "between my [brother's] legs"

Anyways, as the family member who was lying in bed trying to sleep when i hear what sounds like a home invasion, my brother telling me to go and get our "homeland security" gun, and leaving me for the bathroom with several firearms cocked and locked, i feel like i'm the most qualified to say that he grossly overreacted, but I wouldn't say that it wasn't completely unwarranted. I'd probably do the same if I was afraid of getting attacked/bitten/whatnot, it's not like we're dealing with crappy theoretical CCW questions where we're considering factors like if we can run away, or if it's a clean shoot, etc. I'm of the "it's just an animal" camp, so maybe i'm just biased. Or maybe I just don't care, #1 comes first anyways. But I digress.

I'm mainly just mad because if I had known originally that Charlie wasn't trying to knock down my door and take my precious college student possessions (read: laptop, umm...yeah, i think that's about it), I probably would have gone back to sleep. But if I was in the same situation, i'd probably carry my car gun outside. Better safe than sorry; not saying i'm going to be like a trigger happy cop in New York, but i'd rather have it for peace of mind. And isn't that one of the warm fuzzy feelings that comes along with owning a gun?

Sometimes I wonder where my life went wrong. At least I got a good story out of it. It was rated "a million", on a 1-10 scale by one of my friends!

johnnymenudo
August 26, 2004, 01:48 PM
Just be thankful it wasn't a squirrel. Those things will tear a man apart.

JM

PzGren
August 26, 2004, 01:49 PM
Alright, he overreacted.

I have a Doberman, 9 months young. He does not bark at people, he does not growl. He just jumps for the throat. I always have him on a leash when outside of the yard, or when anybody comes.

I have seen a few others like that. I would have reacted differently from Dukeofurl but I am kind of a dog person*.

Bash him, go ahead. Boost your tough self image.






*Ich bin kein Mensch, ich bin kein Tier, ich bin ein Panzergrenadier

OF
August 26, 2004, 02:07 PM
Nobody is bashing anybody. Relax. The guy posted his experience on a discussion board and his reaction is being discussed. That's what we do here...we discuss.

- Gabe

Denko
August 26, 2004, 02:23 PM
Try some short term therapy,specifically for your dog phobia.Your reaction is classic of this condition.Yes,some dogs are dangerous.This clearly was not.Yet you were unable to discern the difference,than engaged in some illogical behavior due to your phobic condition.Please put up the gun until you get some help.Good that you didn't shoot as this type of crap reflects badly on all gun owners.I can see the newspaper headline now: Deranged gun owner guns down beloved family dog.

TallPine
August 26, 2004, 02:25 PM
From what you could tell, it was also circling the vehicle.
No doubt peeing on the tires :D

torpid
August 26, 2004, 02:28 PM
The funny thing to me is that people are coming to the "overreaction" conclusion from simply reading the info in duke's post- 100% his perception of the situation, filtered through his own eyes and words, and it seems like his own account of the story just isn't showing "justifiable" circumstances to many of the folks here.

Seems like it's not a case of mob "quarterbacking" bashing, but fair assessments based off of given information to me.

(Although if he had ended up mauled and rabid instead, he could froth, "I told you so" at us from his ICU bed...)



Having said that:

Night sights. HAVE THEM.
Flashlights. HAVE THEM TOO!
Cell phones are great.
Have a plan.
Have a backup plan.
Keep the damn gun loaded.


Solid points, duke.

PzGren
August 26, 2004, 02:29 PM
I am relaxed. Some of the comments get kind of personal, don't they? Maybe the story was not narrated too well, but maybe there was something in the dogs behaviour?

Just give him some slack.

MP5
August 26, 2004, 02:30 PM
I'd recommend reading up on dog behavior and communication (body language, vocalizations) on the Web or in books for pet owners. With knowledge and practice, you can learn to read their behavior pretty well.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what you could tell, it was also circling the vehicle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No doubt peeing on the tires

Dogs and cats often love to sniff tires and bumpers, picking up all those foreign smells on them.

OF
August 26, 2004, 02:34 PM
Some of the comments get kind of personal, don't they? I know what you mean. It seems that once someone opens the floodgates, the pile-on starts until someone crosses the line, then it kind of backs off a bit. :)

I'm sure Duke knows it's all friendly ribbing. If you can't take a couple low blows every now and then, internet boards aren't going to be all that much fun. :D

But you have to admit, given the information Duke gave us, the reaction is a bit on the 'uber-tactical' side ;)

- Gabe

dukeofurl
August 26, 2004, 02:40 PM
I'm sure they don't get to them.

They get to me though, because people don't read the thread and try and come up with original attempts at humor, like the lol therapy option. The Ayoob files was a good one, though.

I'm going to stop posting now k thx bye

Guns_and_Labs
August 26, 2004, 02:48 PM
Besides the flashlight, I'd keep an empty Snapple bottle in the glove compartment. You never know when you'll need a portable place to pee. I find myself much calmer and able to handle stressful encounters when I've... "relieved"... myself.

Wildalaska
August 26, 2004, 03:15 PM
Lets see, gun in car, goes to bar, drinks some beer, drives the car....

Am I missing something.....

Forget about the doggie...heres the rule...gun in posession, no drinky.

WilddontmakethatmistakeagainAlaska

KMKeller
August 26, 2004, 03:37 PM
Personally, I would've, if frightened by a stray mutt, just backed back out and driven around the block a couple of times.

Or just rolled my window down a bit and said "Pretty doggie!"

Kirk

atk
August 26, 2004, 03:54 PM
dukeofurl,


First: Oops! Sorry for getting your handle wrong! I didn't pay enough attention.

As for anything else I can think of to say, it's already been said, so I'll remain quiet for a bit :)

CGofMP
August 26, 2004, 04:08 PM
I went out with the guys - met them at the bar at Chilis. We took Kill Bill Volume 2 over to a friends place and watched it over a 6 pack of Amber Bock.

Okay so we got our liqour, then went driving, and had the images from Kill Bill floating through our TTM. (tired tactical mind) ...oh yea not to mention.. we REALLY gotta go Peeeeee! Sorry but the poster has already started out with a couple things not in their favor.

I see this furry looking creature getting ready to stroll

Not charge, not run, not stumble while foaming at the gums... stroll...

I (...) instinctively grab my 45 I keep in the glovebox

Please tell us that this poster does not leave a weapon in their car protected by 20 dollars worth of flimsy locks and 4-6 easily broken panes of glass...please...

As for 'instinctive'... So called muscle memory et al come from lots of practice. 1) Duck, 2) tuck, 3) unlatch 4) open glovebox 5) retrieve - repeat. repeat. repeat.

Now, some situational awareness here

Very tactical!

So I'm watching this dog stroll around my car I hear the pitter-patter of paws

Killer instincts for sure.

Too bad discharging a firearm in city limits is a municipal offense, otherwise I'd take matters into my own hands.

That will teach the SOBs to obey leash laws! And if the little girl that owns it cries well lifes a b***h sweetheart! Better learn now! Our motto: Sic Semper Pets!

I sweep inbetween the cars, nothing. (http://www.ninjaburger.com/gfx/ninjaring/mallninjalogo.jpg)

oh boy....

The para is at the ready. I walk up and see nothing. I walk to the front door - and I feel a bump. The dog is right between my legs. he darted out of the way and I made my way to the front door.

The dog knew you were there LONG before you did. If an epiphany was to be had, one would think the lightbulbs would pop on about here... This animal was in my opinion based solely on the posters own words almost as much of a threat as the doorknob.

Some of the lights from the car bounced off the wall of the house so I could see the animals eyes about 5 feet away from me as my back is against the wall. My Para is leveled at the 2 glowing green orbs. Oh I wish I had night sights,

A flourish of literary brilliance! Wow.... I can almost FEEL like I am with the puppy the kid next door left outside.

My heart is in my throat and I said to myself - If this thing takes one step towards me, permanent hearing loss and city ordinances be dammed;

Me too! When I fear for my life, and am pulling weapons out and leveling them at the two devil-possessed orbs of evil about to rip my very life from me, I too would be thinking, "I wonder what the perscribed fine for this action is listed as in the municipal code".

The dog turned his head and walked away

Damn... Just as I was gonna say, "Wag yer tail and make my day! MFer!"

I am sorry if this seems harsh to anyoine, especially to the poster. But the truth of the matter is that the anti-gunners LOVE stuff like this. An over-reaction, brought on by imho exagerated fear and the potential of violating numerous laws as well as possibly killing peoples pets are things that the antis just LIVE to exploit. I do not want to even get INTO lawyers, and local law enforcement perspectives on a situation like this... especially if he had dropped the mutt. Again, its the sort of thing people just LOVE to sue over and local LE would probably love to make a code 3 run to a shots fired call.... This sort of post does not help our cause folks.

I do not truly mean to be disrespectful, the exercise above is my attempt to graphically show what sort of response one might get from the 'average fence sitter'. I do not mean direct disrespect for the poster, but I DO want to point out that this sort of testosterone talk over what can easily be viewed as a mundane situation by the 'average citizen' is just not in the best interest of 2nd ammendment supporters.

I leave open the possibility that this was another Mall Ninja type of humor post.

Wild Alaska Wrote:
Forget about the doggie...heres the rule...gun in posession, no drinky.
Gosh and I thought I'd never agree with anything that guy said (or at least not how he says it)... where's the crow?

cidirkona
August 26, 2004, 08:17 PM
Forget about the doggie...heres the rule...gun in posession, no drinky.

Agreed.

It's just a dog. Unless it was on my hood or barking through my windows, I wouldn't' have thought twice about getting out, even here in coyote country.

I've pepper sprayed a dog before - it works well... but gets hot pink crap all over your pants and hands... AND DON"T SMELL IT!!

Take a trip home and make a deposit to your safe before you drink. One beer could land you in SERIOUS criminal and civil liability. If you feel you need to carry, don't drink.

-Colin

Autolite
August 26, 2004, 08:30 PM
There's a lesson here for dog owners as well. Don't let your dog off the leash in populated areas. Simple. You can't know how someone else is going to react to a loose animal. I am speaking from experience. I had once owned a beautiful Alaskan Malamute. She was a huge dog with massive jaws, actually oversized for the breed. She looked very intimidating, but she was as gentle as a kitten. I made the mistake of taking her off the leash for a training sesssion and she got away from me. Before I could catch her, she tackled one of the neighbour's dogs, some little 'toy poodle type thing'. The neighbour's dog wasn't injured, but he went ballistic. He called my landlord and the cops. Made it sound like the dog was some sort of viscious hell-hound. It didn't go well for me. I paid a fine and ended up putting the dog down. After a lecture from the police, I was in fear of a lawsuit that I would not have been able to cover. So, if your a dog owner who does not live in a rural area, aways keep the dog on a chain or in a pen. I learned that lesson the hard way ...

Wildalaska
August 26, 2004, 08:37 PM
Gosh and I thought I'd never agree with anything that guy said (or at least not how he says it)... where's the crow?


Baking in your oven! Congrats, you finally achieved rightness...

WildcreatesanotherconvertAlaska

CGofMP
August 26, 2004, 08:43 PM
Baking in your oven! Congrats, you finally achieved rightness...
When one achieves rightnes oh AlaskanOracleOfAllKnowledge....is it normal for them to suddenly start to feel FILTHY ??:neener: ;)

Shootcraps
August 26, 2004, 08:50 PM
When one achieves rightnes oh AlaskanOracleOfAllKnowledge....is it normal for them to suddenly start to feel FILTHY ??


Filthy is such a strong word. Wouldn't "dirty" work? Kinda like you need a bath or maybe a tetanus shot? :D

Atticus
August 26, 2004, 08:58 PM
tetanus shot?

Kinda scary....I'm drawing a cocked and locked 1911 and surefire at the very thought. Woof.

CGofMP
August 26, 2004, 08:59 PM
Filthy is such a strong word. Wouldn't "dirty" work? Kinda like you need a bath or maybe a tetanus shot?
No no no... filthy IS the correct word. Agreeing with WildAL is like jumping into a 7 foot deep pit toilet wearing only a jock strap. (Theres a visual for ya!) Filthy IS the right word. :uhoh:

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/home.home.dir/buttons/outhouse.jpg

Shootcraps
August 26, 2004, 09:00 PM
LOL. Excuse me while I :barf:

MMcCall
August 26, 2004, 09:34 PM
At what point while you were being circled by this minion of hell ( :rolleyes: ) did you NOT realize that 1) if the dog was a valid threat, 2) you're SITTING in a two ton WEAPON.

Screw night sights, run his ass over. Happens all the time. Whoops!

nemesis
August 26, 2004, 09:59 PM
This incident is described with numerous references to the Lord, though none are flattering. More Faith in Him could be rewarded with less fear of the dark because fear does not come from God.

I stuck the Para between the gearshift and my front seat as I reached for my phone.

The pistol often referred to is stated to be a Para but the model designation does not appear to be mentioned and I wondered which model it is.

Is it the Para Noia?

Halffast
August 26, 2004, 10:13 PM
Florida, huh?

Did you ever go by the name FUD?

Wildalaska
August 26, 2004, 10:21 PM
When one achieves rightnes oh AlaskanOracleOfAllKnowledge....is it normal for them to suddenly start to feel FILTHY ??

Of course...when they recognize how misguided and wrong they have been up to then, it is normal to feel such self loathing that one feels dirty...even filthy...

Keep agreeing with me you and your cohorts will be fully clean some day bwaaaaaaahahahahahahaha :)


WildandnowthattheplayggroundanticsarefinishedbacktoourregularlysheduledslugfestAlaska

Atticus
August 26, 2004, 11:22 PM
"The pistol often referred to is stated to be a Para but the model designation does not appear to be mentioned and I wondered which model it is.

Is it the Para Noia?"

Thank you nemesis. My sides are hurting.

PBIR
August 26, 2004, 11:27 PM
Not to make fun, but I kept reading the story waiting for you to get to the threat part...

MMcCall
August 26, 2004, 11:29 PM
Not to make fun, but I kept reading the story waiting for you to get to the threat part...

It's even better if you picture him as Mr. Bean.

Exposure
August 27, 2004, 12:08 AM
I am amazed that when you told the 911 operator you were armed and prepared to fire they did not make your call a priority. Usually any call to a 911 center that involves a gun gets some attention.

Girlwithagun
August 27, 2004, 10:25 AM
I'm in my car in my driveway holding a 45 that is cocked, unlocked, and unchambered.

Am I missing something or is there a purpose to having a gun cocked and locked without a round in the chamber? With no round in the chamber, wouldn't you have to pull the slide back which would accomplish the gun being cocked?

I guess we can't feel exactly what you were feeling that made you react this way but just remember the lessons for next time.

1. Alcohol and firearms don't mix
2. Use your cell phone to call someone in your house!
3. Try other possibilities before thinking about shooting someone's pet (honking the horn, waiting until he is by the door and opening it really fast ;) )
4. If you really felt you couldn't get out, it's 5:30 in the morning and you are just getting in so tilt the seat back, take a nap and hope the dog is gone when you wake up.

In short, there are lots of things that could have been done before pulling out your gun. Hope that all the lessons were learned this time.

DnPRK
August 27, 2004, 11:11 AM
A major lesson not learned is:

Drunks have poor situational awareness and their threat avoidance skills suffer in porportion to the amount of booze consumed!

Treylis
August 27, 2004, 11:50 AM
Am I missing something or is there a purpose to having a gun cocked and locked without a round in the chamber? With no round in the chamber, wouldn't you have to pull the slide back which would accomplish the gun being cocked?

It takes less effort to rack the slide and chamber a round when the hammer is cocked.

Shootcraps
August 27, 2004, 11:58 AM
It takes less effort to rack the slide and chamber a round when the hammer is cocked.

Not when the safety is on. ;)

Roadrunner
August 27, 2004, 12:20 PM
FUD that's a name I haven't seen in quite awhile, I remember his stories.

Florida, huh?

Did you ever go by the name FUD?

0007
August 27, 2004, 02:23 PM
Just a thought. Maybe it's time to consider installing some sensor-controled outdoor-lighting. Car pulls into driveway, lights go on, oops dog in yard, check out dog, doesn't look threatening, get out of car and go into house, day is done. Airplanes flying overhead can see my house at night when it's lit... :D :D

Treylis
August 27, 2004, 02:34 PM
Not when the safety is on.

Well, there's kind of an implicit assumption that one's simply going to have to disengage the safety before racking the slide, heh.

Girlwithagun
August 27, 2004, 03:10 PM
Well, there's kind of an implicit assumption that one's simply going to have to disengage the safety before racking the slide, heh.

Yes, but wouldn't it be easier to just rack the slide rather than take the safety off and then rack it?

And back on topic, I happened to see a skit on "The Amanda Show" (my kids had it on :p ) yesterday that reminded me of this thread. It is a family called the Overreactors and a little kitten is in their house and they all freak out.

Treylis
August 27, 2004, 05:12 PM
Yes, but wouldn't it be easier to just rack the slide rather than take the safety off and then rack it?

Oh, indeed, but it would be easier still to just carry Condition 1. :D

Shootcraps
August 27, 2004, 09:38 PM
Oh, indeed, but it would be easier still to just carry Condition 1.

I agree. IMHO, to carry a 1911 in anything but Condition 1 is improper. That's the way it's designed to be carried, and if you can't feel safe with it perhaps you need to be carrying something else.

prezzz
August 27, 2004, 10:35 PM
Maybe it's time to consider installing some sensor-controled outdoor-lighting

Maybe so.

dukeofurl
August 27, 2004, 10:42 PM
I love how a lot of people seem to have thought I was loaded up with beer.

Yes, I did go to the bar. No I did not order anything.

Yes, we had beer at the movie. All my friends are borderline alcoholics and drank it all before I got a chance to grab one.

So there. :p

prezzz
August 27, 2004, 10:53 PM
LOL!!:D

I had to go back you edit my post after that!

I got to hand it to ya'. I was pissed.........but your good attitude about this whole thing just changed my whole outlook on this thread.

You could have come back and posted a pretty nasty post, but I admire the route you chose.

I also must say that you have pretty big "nads" to even post the experience in the first place.

Denko
August 27, 2004, 11:30 PM
Duke,glad to see your still with us.If you think we are being hard on you,please think again.Think how the arresting officer,the prosecuting attorney,the judge and jury would look at you.Just because you have a pistola doesn't mean you can use it at will.Also realize that just because you are in fear of your life doesn't mean you can shoot.The legal system has to agree with your decision to shoot, or your going to be in deep brown matter.It will cost you a lot of money.Then there is the civil suit that is sure to follow.My attorney just got done defending a dog shooter,the shooter paid 10K to the dog owner.I did not ask the legal fee,but it was more.Most dogs are friendly,they have been conditioned since birth to view people as friends.When the dog put its head between your legs,it wasn't checking out your mass,it was looking for some petting.That is why their called pets.A flashlight and a snapple bottle to piss in would have come in handy.Often the best course of action is to assume a tactical position and do nothing.

Shootcraps
August 27, 2004, 11:31 PM
Duke, why are you selling your Para???

pahrumpcaveman
August 27, 2004, 11:55 PM
Well I cant say that I see this situation as threatening ,as you described it , but I was not there . I will however share two canine incidences with you where I was very worried . When I was about 19 or 20 living in an upstairs apartment building I had a hair raising encounter with a pink , yes pink , pit bull . Ya see it was part of my morning ritual to go down and start my bike and let it warm up while I finished my last cup of coffee before heading to work . Well this fine morning I went down and just as I straddled the bike a cat came flying over the brick trash can enclosure . Not 10 feet behind him was one huge , and quite mad , pink pit bull . Well I about sh?t foam , let the bike fall over , and made tracks . Ya see he was actually a white pit bull when not covered in blood . I got up the stares and watched this chase go on in amazement , while calling the cops . I have never seen a dog so hell bent on something in my life . He would clear the eight foot block wall like it was nothing . In the enclosure , out of the enclosure , under cars , OVER cars . I ,to this day , still cant believe it . Finally they took the chase around the corner and through the other buildings . I left and went to work , still no cops . Not until that weekend did I hear the cat belonged to a tenant in another building . Apparently the dog got his catch and the cops got the dog . The cat was not the only victim that day as he had gotten someone's dog too . Why did I not shoot it you might ask ?? Well for one it was in the city and another I owned no guns at the time . That has changed . Oh and the other time was not to long ago . I had decided to go out and do some shooting one morning , like most weekends . I got to the spot in the desert where we shoot around here . Parked the truck ,got out the guns and put them on the tailgate in nice orderly fashion . Grabbed some of the shoot and see targets I had and headed to a shot up old car to put some of the stickers on it . When I got to about ten feet of the car I hear this real deep growl !! Where do you think the guns where ?? Yup . I backed up slowly and got back to the truck . Ya see around here in the sticks city folk like to drop off there unwanted dogs and they just don't fair to well in the desert in the summer and against the coyotes . As I said I got back to the truck , picked up my AR and let the car have it . Out from under came the biggest meanest black dog I have ever seen . And I will leave the story off there . So even though I cant say I see the concern in your situation , I was not there . But I can relate to being concerned for ones life involving a stray dog . Lessons learned ??? NEVER leave ALL the guns on the tailgate and beware of pink pit bulls.

Gunsnrovers
August 28, 2004, 01:19 AM
I grew up as a paperboy in Honolulu for 3 years. 4:30~5:30AM riding my bike delivering papers in the dark. We used to carry penny sticks to ward off the evil things. Take $1.50 in penny rolls (3) and tape them together with black electricians tape. Made a flexible and nasty piece and set you back all of $2 including the tape.

Riding around in the dark and working around the dogs, you get a pretty decent idea about their intentions. The only time I did get nailed, a doberman leapt from behind a hedge as I rode up and knocked me from the bike. 100% blind sided me. Absolutely no warning. No bark. Just a blur out of the corner of my eye and whomp! I was flying. Seeing as I was all of 11, the dog probably outweighed me. Once I stopped riding and I was down, the dogged came up and sniffed me. Gave me a "huff" and walked away. I guess he just didn't like my bike riding techniques! I saw him again and he never took interest in me after that. I must have been a game he wanted to try out. :eek:

Anyway, it seems like you have major dog issues and need to learn to analyze things a little better. You were in the car. You were 100% protected. You controlled the situation. When you draw the gun, you were no longer in control of the situation. The situation has gotten so out of control you felt that you would need to terminate a life to regain that control. You could have stayed in the car. You could have opened the window and spoken to the dog to gauge it's reaction. It's not like it has the ability to rip open the door and pull you out. Time was on your side, as was a higher IQ (hopefully :) ) and opposable thumbs. Having to get inside and take a pee doesn't justify killing a dog so you can get to your front door and use the restroom. It's not a matter of letting the dog get the better of you, it's a matter of being better then the dog.

It would be extremely difficult for me to sit on a jury of self defense case and try to 2nd guess why someone had to kill another to save their life or defend someone else. I would not want to have to 2nd guess at what point the situation reached the point that this was necessary. The one time I was on a jury for a three strikes criminal, I was the lone juror who drew the deliberations out from the 3 hours the others wanted to give the the case, to 3 days. Trying to put myself in the shoes of the person on the stand to see what was happening at the time wasn't cut and dry and when you're in a position to have a major impact on another persons life, passing judgment is pretty weighty. That being said, nothing in your story suggests you ever reached that point and if you were in front of a jury regarding this situation, I would find against you.

I'm also curious what laws you might have been charged with had you discharged your firearm in a residential area and killed your neighbors dog. Reckless endangerment? Illegal discharge of a firearm in city limits? Just wondering. I have no idea. I would assume you'd get hit pretty hard civilly too.

JPM70535
August 28, 2004, 06:53 AM
I completely agree, You over reacted. As long as you were not dealing with a Pit Bull, (Junk Yard Dog) or an inbred Dobie or Chow or some such, you probably could have yelled at it and the dog would have left Poste Haste.

My question to you is, why was your gun not in a ready to use condition?
If the dog had been one of the types I mentioned, you could have been seriously injured before you ever got off a shot, and I have seen Pit bulls take several hits before they went down.

Before I get flamed over the merits of the Pit Bull as a home companion, if you love your Pit Bull, keep him home. If I see him runing loose,and he comes my way, it's DIRT NAP TIME!

Highpower1
August 28, 2004, 08:01 AM
Glad it wasn't a cat,,those are sneaky lil devils.

Seriously, you over-reacted.

campbellcj
August 28, 2004, 11:44 AM
Likewise as somebody stated above, I now keep pepper spray in the center console of my car for these kind of situations. Another one in my briefcase as well and one in the pocket (along with a nice folder) when hiking etc. This is largely because here in the Republik of Los Angeles, around 8mil of us can't legally carry much else (concealed or not).

HKGuns
August 30, 2004, 12:40 AM
While reading I kept waiting for "the dog was growling or snarling" or something that indicated its intent.....heck, the dog was probably trying to cop a 5:30 breakfast too.

Sorry, but I too fall into the over-reaction camp. It almost appears you were looking for a reason to pull the pistol.

Consider a scenario similar to your dog story, only replace the dog with a homeless drunk asking for directions or a light.....Would you have pulled on him, or worse, if he approached you quietly? I'm not asking this question to elicit an argument. Just trying to give you something to think about.

I'm glad it worked out and you didn't shoot the dog.

griz
August 30, 2004, 02:59 PM
I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that's running you over, just one free piece of advice. If a dog bumps into you it means you no harm. He's just saying hi. Dogs are good natural predators and will never give up the element of surprise for an attack. They may warn you with a growl or other form of intimidation, but that isn't an attack.

Live and learn.:)

effengee
August 30, 2004, 08:42 PM
Mine does...

If ANY animal, domesticated pet or rabid beast comes on my property, anytime of day or night, and causes me enough concern to draw my weapon, it's getting a lead pill to cure it's headache...
I live in an area where wild dogs and several other species of "I don't care if you're a human, I'll bite you anyway" animals live...
Granted, most any dog has signs it is friendly.
But it is an animal and WILL react upon instinct.

I was once bitten and shot the damn mutt the second time it came after me in my own yard...

The neighbor/owner got all bent out of shape, but the cops told them I was perfectly in the right.

I warned them not to let their dog stray and had the police advise them as to the ordinances concerning pets on other people's property.
I don't hate animals, but if they want to tangle with me, they get no mercy.

JH

PBIR
August 30, 2004, 08:56 PM
As long as you were not dealing with a Pit Bull, (Junk Yard Dog) or an inbred Dobie or Chow

I had two AKC Chows growing up & they were great dogs. Guess I just don't fall into the scared of dogs category.

If you enjoyed reading about "Today I feared for my safety and pulled my gun - lessons learned" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!