February 19, 2003, 08:32 PM
Firearms ownership is highly illegal in my country. (Only uniformed government officers/agents/JBTs are permitted to carry arms and any private citizen found with a gun is liable to be imprisoned for MANY years. :cuss: ) Even though weapons regulations are ridiculously strict here, (while criminals have everything from pistols to machetes :-P) I have decided to acquire a small telescopic baton as a precaution against the rising violent crime rate.
A former college buddy working for the LAPD recommended Winchester expandable batons. Does anyone have any opinions as to whether they are better than ASP batons? What are monadnock or casco baton? Which brand is the best?
Or should I just stick to the tactical folder that I carried when I was in college stateside? :banghead:
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February 19, 2003, 08:45 PM
I have an ASP. The ASP is very high quality but expensive. But I would carry a knife as well. Ya got to be careful with the ASP. You hit somebody on the noggin with that thing, you will probably kill them. Try an elbow shot, or a shot to the back of the arm. Ouch! That thing will break bones easy.
February 19, 2003, 09:01 PM
Don't think I can carry TWO weapons on a daily basis (ie knife + baton). However, how well does the ASP work when large muscle groups like thighs or stomachs are hit? Their light weight bothers me a bit.
Also, I don't live in the USA and as such many ASP dealers have refused to ship overseas. Any bother brands I can consider if I can't get ASP?
February 19, 2003, 09:04 PM
While asp has long been the industry standard in non side handle expandable batons. Winchester is quickly winning favor for being heavier. Try this link
February 19, 2003, 09:14 PM
I'm in the process of switching from an ASP to a heavier baton, because I have come around to the heavy-is-good school of though in the last few years. The leading contenders, if your so inclined, are the Monadnock with the power safety tip (basically a small weight on the tip) or the Winchester, which is just plain heavy compared to most. Of course, if you want an unobtrusive whacking tool for a politically unfriendly enviroment, don't forget the obvious...
your basic cane, ala Cold Steel (http://www.ltspecpro.com/specpro/91wcfc.html)
February 19, 2003, 09:27 PM
ok.....so Winchester batons are heavy and heavy sticks do more damage. Alright then........but can anyone recommend a good way of carrying them in a discreet manner?
If and when I get hold of a baton, I can considering mounting it horizontally on elastic loops at the back of my belt or getting a verticle belt holster with a flap to cover the baton.
Lastly, in a fight with someone else who carries an inpact weapon, what is the chance that the friction locks at the joints of the baton could disengage if the baton and the thug's weapon clash at that particular spot? :what:
February 19, 2003, 09:53 PM
I haven't ever seen anyone have a problem with the joints while using one, but if you did the centrifugal force of your next swing ought to lock it up again. I seem to recall someone making a shoulder rig for ASP, but I don't have the info close at hand.
February 19, 2003, 10:02 PM
ok, found it, its by ASP, but you could probably come up with something similar if it wasn't adaptable...
ASP's shoulder harness (http://store.cutleryshoppe.com/cs/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=392&CATID=5)
February 19, 2003, 10:36 PM
Thanks for the link to the shoulder rig!
If anyone out there has any experiences with the Winchester baton your comments would be much appreciated.
Also, has anyone out there ever confronted a knife wielding goblin and an expendable baton before? How did it go?
February 20, 2003, 11:14 AM
I carried the medium length lightweight asp on duty for 9 years.
It will cause someone to have a very bad day. Learn the strike points for this tool and go to that area to inflict pain,injury, etc.
The heavier batons do not create more damage in my opinion. The will probably break bone easier if thats your goal [which it should not be].
Having trained in and being a trainer of the ****/escrima sticks, I have to say the lightweight sticks are pretty nasty to get hit with.
They are light [bamboo, originally] and that makes them very quick in the hand which translates to speed of strike which in itself will cause much damage dependant on where the strike is made.
I am not trying to break bone when I use the tool in a self defense role. I am attempting to keep the BG from harming me. Better get that one down before you find yourself arrested for assault yourself. If you inflict severe injuries to an assailant and admit you carried the heavier stick to "break bone" you could be looking at charges by the police.
The lightweight stick [asp fully extended] is ample protection where sticks are concerned. Take some courses in defensive tactics with the stick/baton.
A tip--You do not use it like a basball bat swung one handed in a wide arch.
It will be subject to confiscation by the opponent in this manner.
Targets:--wrists, elbows, ribs, forearms, knees
The easiest way to defend with these is to go for their wrist as they reach in on you. Stay tight, light flicks to the forearm or wrist will cause enough damage to stop the aggressor. If it doesn't, then you may escalate to a more effective target area on their body.
Most will cease and desist if they have their wrist, forearm slapped by a stick. Makes em not want to reach in again to harm you.
As to the asps staying open. Never seen one unlock. Matter of fact most of them have to be hit real good on a hard targetr[ like the street] to get them to close when you want.
February 20, 2003, 11:30 AM
I have one of the Winchester Batons and love them. I think the heavier mass of them is far superior to the ASP. Its simple inertia; transfer of energy will be much greater with a heavier object. Mag lights work too. I'd rather have a good Aluminum light than an ASP. (My opinion)
Concealing a Winchester Baton will not be easy.
With all due respect to Brownie....
I take it you're LEO. I'm not. You are constrained by policy and law that I am not. My goal in any confrontation whether armed with, gun, impact weapon, knife, or unarmed is to stop the threat. For a civilian, an impact weapon that can and will break bones can and will be viewed as lethal force. Don't pull it unless you'd also pull a gun. The advantage of a baton is it may be carried places a gun may not. Thats about it.
February 20, 2003, 11:55 AM
Transfer of energy isn't just about the heavier the more transferred.
Look to pistol cartridges for the theory behind it.
9mm 115gr @ 1400 fps actually dumps more energy into the target than a 148gr at 950 fps.
Speed will transfer plenty of energy. The orientals have been using light fast sticks for years over heavier equipment that could do the same thing.
My goals/constraints are the same as Smokes. Stop the threat from causing further potential harm to your person or another.
Same goals for police and civilans. We have to obey the same laws of the land and are not different in that regard. It is deemed lethal force as stated so be careful when and where you use it to defend with.
The lighter the stick the less likely to break heavy bone, agreed.
The heavier the stick the harder it is to wield quickly.
Two people with sticks, one heavy the other light, who wins?
If both have equal ability in stick, the lighter stick will prevail as a general rule.
February 20, 2003, 12:20 PM
I think the argument of comparing pistol cartridges and batons is moot.
Terminal ballistics have been argued over this board and TFL numerous times so I won't start again.
With that said, Brownie is right in regards to his statement on training. Finding two people equally matched is impossible. But the one with the better training & ability will prevail heavy or light stick.
As with guns... it ain't the arrow; its the injun.
February 20, 2003, 12:31 PM
"it ain't the arrow; its the injun."
Hadn't heard that one but I really like the saying.
February 20, 2003, 08:23 PM
Why did I get the sneaky suspicion that we'd touch on the light & fast vs slow & heavy discussion? :rolleyes:
Anyhow, while I feel that brownie has made some valid points, I would like to point out that my needs and abilities do differ. I will readily admit that I am clumsy and lack agility, hence the ability to strike wrists, elbows and other fast moving parts of the anatomy is limited. Hence, in a confrontation on the streets on my home country (where criminals attack in large fast groups), if escape is not possible, I would go for whatever assailent body part presented itself and hope to cause maximum damage. I really don't want to end up in hospital with extensive injuries and being too beaten in to give details of my attackers to the police.
However, I do sincerely agree with Brownie that training is necessary and have already gone for a few ****/arnis/escrima (these martial arts are outlawed locally) classes as well as reading the monadnock baton manual. It's on a one to one basis and I am paying about US$43/hour. Does anyone think I'm being overcharged? :confused:
February 20, 2003, 08:42 PM
Since I only have the ASP, I can not offer an opinion on other batons. All I know, is one day I was fooling around with the ASP, smacked myself very lightly on the head with it, and man did that hurt. Try bouncing it on your knee lightly and you will get an idea on how devestating this weapon can be.
I think a lighter short baton is better. You can carry easier, deploy, and swing it faster. Oh, and another interesting thing you can do with a baton, is to use it closed as a sap and or a persuader pressed to soft parts like the neck.
I never close my ASP by pounding it on a hard surface. Hold it aloft, and shake vigorously. It will in a moment or two collapse.
February 21, 2003, 01:24 AM
I've got an 21" ASP Airweight baton. I like it a lot.
Short enough collapsed to fit in any of my pockets and nice and light so I carry it everywhere.
I've read reports of the Airweights bending under hard use and not being able to close. Big deal. If i need to use it I won't be concerned with it closing, just opening. I'll spend another ~$70 to replace it if it bends when hitting some BG. I feel much better knowing that it'll always be with me due to its light weight ease of carry.
February 21, 2003, 02:37 AM
kannonfyre, I know you didn't mean to say 'expendable' in one of your posts, but it brings to my mind the Mag-Lite. Big, heavy and slow. Made some big ol' scars on my head, made me bleed alot, but DID NOT take me out of the fight.
I'd hate to see what that knob on an ASP would do on one's head. But, the head's not the target, when you're a good guy. Any expandable baton of quality will probably do fine, within its proscribed area of employment. Don't worry about the ASP collapsing. Don't have experience with the Winchester, this is the first I've heard of it. Look into Fox Labs pepper spray, too.
February 21, 2003, 03:10 AM
Thanks for the input but I since I don't live in the US, fox distributors are EXTREMELY hesitant about shipping me their fine product. If I do get any pepper spray, I get it though the black market (pepper spray also illegal where i live :cuss: ) and it's most often lesser known brands.
On striking targets, my escrima classes emphasise strikes to the shoulder blades, upper arms and elbows. I'll probably go for those areas out of sheer habit.
Lastly, assaults in my country is often akin to mob violence (police arrests are seldom for one on one altercations, it's for RIOTING). As such, "assaultees" often end up using lethal force just to stay alive.
Will be getting hold of a second hand eastern european expandable baton tonight. Thanks for all the input people! :)
February 23, 2003, 05:27 AM
A lot of good, but differing points made above.
-It's not the weapon, it's the skill of the user that matters.
-Heavier baton *may* be more effective, but is also FAR more difficult to carry, and is far more fatiguing to carry, just like a large, heavy gun. I know from experience.
-Lighter baton may be better because it allows for quicker strikes; you can keep it moving, making it more difficult for opponent to grab hold, whereas if you are swinging a heavier baton like a bat, it would be easier for opponent to grab in between swings. You are also more likely to carry a lighter baton with you more often.
-I don't know a thing about the Winchester batons, and because they don't have much of a track record, I personally would recommend you stick with the two proven brands: Monadnock & ASP
-I would recommend the Monadnock Autolock for several reasons:
- Heavy. Don't know how it compares to the Winchesters, but its got a nice heft to it, moreso than the ASPs.
- Will NOT lock open as the ASP's can do. ASPs have locked open which can be a huge pain, ESP. if it happens during practice. (you wouldn't be inclined to practice as much.) I've read it is not uncommon for the ASPs to lock open. The Airweights are particularly suceptible to this, as well as to bending/breakage because they are made of a lighter aluminum alloy.
- Ease of opening/closing. (Pushbutton Autolock system)
Hmmm..that's all for now....
February 23, 2003, 08:10 PM
A question for both Smoke and Dr Jones,
Since it's already been established that Winchester batons are heavy and tough to conceal, are there anyways around these two weaknesses?
Are there any good weight training exercises that you both can recommend that are good for stick fighters? Any suggestions for a good belt holster that minimises the exposure of a winchester baton?
The reason I am asking is because I will be visiting my brother in the US and he's offerred to sell me his used winchester baton.
February 23, 2003, 09:51 PM
Just looked it up, and the weight of my 26" Monadnock Autolock is about 22 oz. (Close to 2 lbs) Sorry, don't know what that is in kilos.
Regardless, that's a fair amount of weight to try to carry.
I have searched extensively, and have not found a single baton holder that lends itself well to concealed carry. (Except the ASP shoulder scabbard that someone linked above, which looks REALLY cool and effective. Unfortunately, it does not work with Monadnocks. :mad: )
Surprisingly, what often works quite well is if I just stick it in my waistband in the front of my pants. The rubber "Supergrip" keeps it in place quite well.
I suppose if you really strengthened up your entire arm, forearm, and shoulders, you may not feel the weight as much.
Or just train and practice with it a lot.
Oh and also: didn't someone above mention that these aren't really meant to be used one-handed?
February 23, 2003, 09:54 PM
Couple more thoughts:
No matter how strong you get, or how much you train with a heavy baton, that's not going to change the way it feels when you are carrying it.
Also, there are distinct advantages to slow and heavy vs. fast and light.
Slow & Heavy: Less blows needed to produce desired effect. If you could end the confrontation with one hard hit, so much the better.
On the downside of S&H, if you had more than one opponent, S&H could work to your disadvantage.
February 23, 2003, 10:00 PM
so I suppose it's more a matter of the man fitting the baton than it is the baton fitting the man. If I am not wrong, a 21" winchester is an ounce heavier than your monadnock. I suppose working out with dumbells everyday is in order then.........
:D If only lightsabres were available, I would not have to bother with batons.
February 24, 2003, 09:02 AM
Strikes with a stick should be made to the wrists, elbows, shoulders, ribs [ if the BG open up enough to access them ], knees, etc.
Basically you want to go for joints on the arms. Stay away from the head shots if possible unless you want to cause death or coma and possibly be charged with a crime yourself.
Basically in a defensive posture you want to defend against the attacking limbs as thats where the threat is coming from.
I don't carry an asp baton daily myself but would only consider carrying the lightweight aluminum which I own. It's the medium length lightweight I prefer.
Gives me enough reach, is extremely fast in the hand and can be carried all day without undue weight as in the all steel versions.
Again, please realize that the orientals developed stick fighting using light bamboo sticks instead of something heavier [ which they could have come up with ]. Centuries with the sticks has them using light not heavy. Must be a reason for that decision.
Also, if you are taking classes for stick training, they are using lightweight stuff, does that tell you what you should be considering?
February 24, 2003, 10:11 PM
Learn to use the point and butt, as well as the barrel. Very effective close in, where swinging strikes are more difficult.
February 25, 2003, 01:52 PM
The following link takes you to a site run and owned by a good friend and knife training partner Mike Sastre.
Tell Mike you know Brownie from Massachusetts and what you are looking for.
He makes custom kydex rigs for about anything that can be carried and has made several custom sheaths for me to hold some very exotic toys.
I'm sure he can hook you up with something concealable if thats what you are looking for.
I have two monadnock polycarbonate 1" diameter sticks in my collection. Carried one on duty for 9 years as it was police issue equipment [ though thinner than most LE monadnock sticks ].
After an hour of playing with these in the drills your forearms are about to fall off. You can also rip muscle/tendons in your wrists/forearms making strikes if not careful. These are waytoo heavy to weild in a fast paced defensive scenario.
I utilize the bamboo or wooden dowels in 1" format that are 26 inches long and these are weilded much faster [becoming a blurr] while in use.
The monadnock would take heavy glancing/defensive blows and survive better than the dowels or bamboo but they are just too heavy to be effective in a dynamic environment where you need to redirect your defensive moves directly into something offensive.
Everybody has their preference but the lightweight sticks are much betrer in my hands. I've played with both extensively and prefer the wooden dowels in 1" diameter.
Dumbbell training won't keep you from ripping ligament and tendons in the forearms and wrists. I suggest you try to take a few small hits with a partner delivering the blows on your person. You should get the feel for the stick quite quickly and know that the lighter stick causes quite enough damage to the ooponent when used in anger vs the partner just tapping you until you know that anything harder will injure you and require some sort of medical attention. It's the only way to know what you can deliver for punishment. Take some small hits and tell me the light stick won't "do" someone in a hurry.
As to the asps locking open, thats what I'm looking for. I don't want it collapsing on me at the most inopertune time. The yare easily collapsed after the threat has been nuetralized by punching the end of the asp onto a hard surface. If the asp didn't lock open it would be basically useless as a defensive tool. Thats how they were designed and thats how they perform, to lock open once expanded and stay that way until a concerted effort is made to retract itself by the operator.
Check with Mike Sastre at the link above. He can hook you up with what you want, custom made to your criteria.
March 2, 2003, 09:04 PM
I just whipped out my Monadnock Autolock, (been a while since I've played with it.)
While I still say it's a bit on the heavy side to carry (though I've done it before) its a whole other thing when its extended.
When extended, it really is not at all so heavy as to be difficult to wield.
I can whip it around quite quickly, and its substantial heft would most definitely make a HUGE impact if/when it makes contact.
Another thing I thought of:
You could purchase a smartcarry (www.smartcarry.com) and use that to carry the baton.
I have a smartcarry I just got, but haven't tried it yet.
I will and I'll let you know.
Hope this helps.
March 2, 2003, 09:26 PM
Good day to you Dr Jones,
I've seen the smart carry and I wonder whether it's practical to carry a 9" long collapsed baton in it. It looks like it was meant to carry compact pistols and other smaller items only.
Please do let me know how it works when you get your smartcarry though.
March 3, 2003, 01:04 AM
Hello to you, sir.
Well, I just got back, removed my G30 from my Smartcarry. :cool:
Put my Monadnock in, and it works great.
My baton is 11 3/4" long closed, and when in the Smartcarry, about 3 1/2 inches sticks out above the waist of my pants.
HOWEVER, you could safety pin the pouch, or stuff cloth in the bottom of it in order to get more of the baton to stick above your pantline.
The manuf. recommends this anyway to "customize" the Smartcarry to each gun, as they only come in two or three sizes. (Which is evident as mine is marked as being a "Medium" size, and will accomodate both my G30 and G27.)
I'd post pics, but don't have a digicam.
Am I clear? :scrutiny:
Hope that made sense... :D
March 3, 2003, 11:02 AM
Basically you want to go for joints on the arms. Stay away from the head shots if possible unless you want to cause death or coma and possibly be charged with a crime yourself. What are you smokin? If you use a “club” you just used deadly force. It matters not where on an assailants body you strike.
March 3, 2003, 12:09 PM
If you stick with the joints on the arms, legs you will be creating much damage that should halt the attack which is your goal.
Go for the headshots and you may kill the guy. It is not a question of using deadly force as much as you want to get away from the threat and not face manslaughter or worse charges.
If you were justified to use force to defend yourself as you were in fear of your life or grave bodily injury it doesn't matter that it is deadly force.
What does matter is if you can articulate why you broke his wrist and not his a## when you could have.
If you have some formal training with the stick you can articulate your training, your reasons behind your actions and the proper response based on your training. That response being you were trying to stop the persons aggression toward you for you feared for your life or possible grave bodily injury if you did defend yourself.
BTW--An escrima type stick is not a club. A club is described as being fatter on one end than the other like a police billy club or baseball bat.
A stick is not a dangerous weapon in and of itself. Clubs have been determined to be such through written statutes in various states dangerous weapons laws, being specifically mentioned.
If a stick in and of itself was illegal to posses it would make it quite difficult to enforce. I may at that point have to start carrying a curtain rod around with me.:rolleyes:
March 5, 2003, 08:57 AM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I had to reply to those who think heavier is better.
A heavy baton may seem like a good idea but in reality, I think it is a detriment. You can be much quicker and more agile with a lighter baton - something important if your confronted with multiple attackers. A heavy one will be ponderous and slow enough that a street-wise criminal with a bit of martial arts training may be able to block your strike and take it away from you.
The lighter weight ASP is capable of inflicting more than enough damage and can be wielded much more efficiently.
March 7, 2003, 07:30 PM
I had no idea that ASP even had any competitors. :D I began carrying a 26"(?) full-size when I wore a uniform full-time. Soon, I grew tired of the length and weight when extended and switched to the 21" model. I just cannot imagine the other products mentioned here that are even heavier. FWIW, I also have their 16" model that I still occasionally carry as an adjunct to my CCW. I'm in agreement with lighter, shorter, quicker-is-better.:D
The baton is an intermediate, non-lethal weapon in so far as LE is concerned. Just like a ball-point pen, however, it can certainly be put to lethal use. Head-strikes are verboten unless your life is in jeapordy! You do need to check your laws, depending on the state, province or country where you live. That always is the final-word, as they say.:cool:
April 29, 2006, 09:47 AM
I left a very abusive man I was married to. I also got a permanant protective order against him. I live in a small town in southern Indiana and the pro. atty won't enforce the P.O. even though my ex has violated it several times and threatened my life. I have all of this on tape but was told nothing will be done until he hurts me because they don't want to take up jail space with non violent crimes. I have a 21 inch expandable tac baton. I know I can't carry it in a tractor trailer but I want to know if someone knows if I can carry it in my backpack. I will use pepper spray first but the baton is nice to have if he decides to bring his shot gun that the police won't take from him even though the P.O. says he can't have it. I am not a violent person but if the pros. atty. won't protect me then I have to do something myself. I have a spottless criminal and driving record and don't want to do anything to mess that up.
April 29, 2006, 11:16 PM
You might try and reframe the issue as a self defense question, and post it over in the Strategies and tactics section. There may be someone over there that can answer your question. I'd include IN in the title, so your more likely to catch the attention of someone with the specific info your looking for.
April 30, 2006, 12:46 AM
Oh and also: didn't someone above mention that these aren't really meant to be used one-handed?
No. Asp, and similar batons, are intended to be used one handed. In escrima you may reinforce the strike with the other hand to the wrist or forearm, but it is not the SOP.
Batons, like peper spray, are part of the force continuum. They are intended to fit somewhere between the use of firearms and the disarming word. When words fail the use of a firearm isn't always needed to defend ourselves and this is where other tools come in to use. As such, beating the other guy to death isn't the goal and learning how to do something more than this is needed. Certainly if you need to transition to lethal force a baton can do that for you.
If you train in escrima I suggest you get a baton as close to the weight and length as the sticks you are using. You've already built the muscle memory for the weight and length and movement, take advantage of that.
Speed is important. It can't be said enough. If you can hit your opponent with a lighter stick so quickly that they can't defend/deflect/dodge it's obviously better than missing them with the heavy stick. What is "heavy" is different for each person, though so pick a stick that is a balance between weight and speed with preference given to speed.
If you're "clumsy", train out of it. It can be done. I know because I had to work to get away from being clumsy.
May 1, 2006, 06:37 AM
Does anyone have any practical experience of the Hiatts Zytel (or something similar) baton? They are very light (and so quick) with a steel last section but are they too light in practice?
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