[orangeninja]

Is the .357 Sig REALLY comparable to the .357 Magnum?

Is the .45 GAP REALLY the the modern equal to the .45 ACP?

Does ANYONE still shoot the .41 AE or the .38 Super?

I bought a .45 ACP today....(applause) yes thank...thank you....and I got to thinking on my way home about my Dad....who was in law enforcement for 14 long years....and about all the guns he had that I saw as a kid. As a uniformed officer he carried a Smith & Wesson Model 66 .357 Manum which was status quo of the day. Then he goes plain clothes and buys a .38 special Colt Detective Special. Also status quo....THEN he goes out and buys a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special after a couple of close calls and the anemic reputation the .38 snubbie seemed to be earning at the time. Finally he gets approved to carry an auto....he wanted the "stopping power" of his model 66 so he carried a 1911 .38 Super....which I guess was the 1980's version of the .357 Sig. Well after that he discovered the .41 AE which preceeded the modern day .40 S&W.....all this to say.....

the .38 Super is a fantastic and slick round...but it died off due to lack of LE sales and the FBI showed little to no interest in it.

the .44 Special is still viable, but much less popular now than in the 80's again, lack luster LE sales.

the .41AE, everybit the .40 S&W that the modern day .40 S&W is, YET, due to the FBI acceptance of the .40 S&W a slew of LE agencies quickly bought into them, after all, the FBI knows best:).....and the .41 fades into the misty fog of time.

Now I know that some agencies (State and local mostly, oh and the Treasury guys) have gone to the .357 Sig...so I think that in 10 to 20 years we will still see this round, albiet not as commonly as the 9mm and .40 S&W. We wil still see the .357 Magnum, after all, like a great cut of steak, it's thick, it's juicy and it performs best on open flame. An American classic. The .38 Special will stay alive due to it's interchangability with the .357 Mag.

However.....the .45 ACP is now being challenged by the .45 GAP....I have not heard of any large government buys for the GAP yet, and I really don't predict any. Anyone here other than me predicting this particular rounds eventual failure?

I can sit here and look at my Dad's pistols and think, "man, you can really only find a ready supply of ammo for 2 or at best 3 of these if you don't mind spending $20.00 for the .44 specials".


Sorry.....attack of nostalgia....my dad was a "latest and greatest" kind of shooter. I tend to be much more practical.

What are your thoughts?

[ducktapehero]

I hope the new calibers catch on because I'm tired of the 9MM vs 45 debate. Of course in the last few years we have also added the 40 to split the two camps. We also have the 357 vs 10MM debate that is beginning to heat up. The more the merrier.

[cratz2]

The 38 Super is a fine cartridge that has been around for many years. It is obviously a 'stayer' or else it would have disappeared years ago. The 9x23 is the continuation of the 38 Super which seems to be a passe trend outside of competition circles which is unfortunate.

The 357 SIG seems to have caught on with many highway patrol divisions where autobody penetration is a primary concern.

The 45GAP doesn't seem to be catching on as quickly as the 40S&W or the 357SIG though I can see some use for it. I'd love to have either a CZ PCR or P-01 chambered in 45GAP. I'd also get a Kahr TP9 sized gun chambered in 45GAP.

[surfinUSA]

The 38 super is the grand dad of them all and was developed in the early part of the 1900's to defeat the available body armor of the time and penetrate auto bodys.

The cops liked revolvers better, but a good round never dies it just fades into semi obscurety like the 41 mag and the 10mm auto. All have periodic resurgences in popularity then fade into the background again.

The 38 super became real popular in competition during the 70s in the 1911 platform and many a gun was KBed trying to load the cartridge to major class, but that is a discussion for someone else that took part in those games and actually loaded the cartridge.

The 41 action express never went anywhere partially because its rebated rim was thought to be less reliable. Of course that didn't stop Glock from loading the 45 GAP with a rebated rim. I think this round is only going to make money for Glock in foreign countries that don't permit the ownership of military calibers and ban the 45 acp.

[Standing Wolf]

I'm holding out for the arrival of the .417 Super Duper.

[Ankeny]

Of course .38 Super is still the Open IPSC cartridge. With the new power factor, no fear of "super face" from the flying shards of blown cases. In fact, Corbon offers some pretty hot Super loads that would make a 1911 in Super rock as a self defense gun.

I think the .45 GAP will be around for a long time. The model 21 in .45 ACP was just too fat to suit a lot of folks. Now that Glock has the GAP, people can shoot a .45 in the smaller frame.

Oh, and yes the GAP is ballistically equal too or superior to the .45 ACP.

[Wanderer]

.357 Sig - Stayer. Nearly twice (sometimes nearly thrice) the capacity of most revolvers, in a package with less recoil. Same or better ballistics.

.38 Super has already been proven to be a Stayer in competitive shooting.

.45 GAP - Not a Stayer. Most people who wanted large caliber, but something that would fit their hands already went to the .40. Came a little late.

[David4516]

I am suprised that .38 super has not become more popular...

Seems to me like it's the same idea as .357 sig (faster 9mm), but in a thinner case (thinner comapred to .357 sig that is) so you can fit more in the same size mag. Seems very logical. I bet it would make a great round for concealed carry...

So why aren't gun makers like Glock making pistols in .38 super? I don't get it...

:confused:

[Jeff Timm]

David 4516 asked: "So why aren't gun makes like Glock making pistols in .38 super? I don't get it..."

The Super has a market in SA because it isn't a military round.

Most of the M1911 Clone makers ignore the round.

It requires a slightly more expensive magazine, has a reputation for poor accuracy and ammo isn't nearly as available as .40 S&W.

I have been told barrel makers are reluctant to produce barrels because of liability. With more modern powders, the .38 Super can be overloaded with the usual kB! results.

Geoff
Who regrets not buying a Colt Commander in .38 Super, many moons agone.
:cool:

[Oracle]

I think the "fitting in your hands" thing only applies to the .45 ACP Glocks. Most of those that wanted a .45 but whose hands the Glocks didn't fit well went with a 1911 years ago. The .45 GAP seems to be a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Of course, solving a problem that doesn't exist hasn't stopped firearms/ammunition makers before, and some of them have made quite a lot of money doing so :).

[grendelbane]

Well, it looks like things are backwards in the big cities! Here in the country you are more likely to have problems because you chose to use tht fancy store bought ammunition.

The prosecuting attorney is likely to make such statements as, "No, an 158 grain cast SWC over 15 grains of 2400 was not good enough for the defendant to use. It was good enough for his father, and his father before him, but the defendant had to buy fancy store bought ammunition!"

Sorry! Not sure how this post got here, as it was obviously intended for another thread.

Anyway, yes, the .38 Super has survived 75 years. It will survive 75 more, if cartridge firearms do.

Amazing how many people do not even know of its existence, though.

[JohnBT]

The Colt employee who posts on 1911Forum recently mentioned the possibility of a lightweight Commander next year in .38 Super (or Super .38 for the old guys)

John

[Delmar]

The alleged inaccuracies of the 38 Super Auto went away years ago. Even Colt learned to headspace the round on the case mouth instead of that itty bitty rim a while back. A friend of mine bought a stainless 1911 in that caliber last year, and got a winner.

If you have an older Colt, try one of the new Colt barrels or Bar-Sto.

[orangeninja]

My Dad's Colt .38 Super 1911 is a freakin tack driver....and it's the only one I've shot. I have seen Wal Mart carry Winchester ammo for it, between 17 and 23 bucks a box of 50 though.

*BANG*

.52 cents


*BANG*

$1.03

*BANG*

$1.56

*BANG*

$2.08 and so on.....get's pricey.:uhoh:

[Delmar]

Not if you roll yer own:D

[Harold Mayo]

If you look around, you can pick up .38 Super ball for plinking for $7.00/box or so. When I had a Kimber Pro Carry HD II in .38 Super, I bought a case of the stuff. Pretty good ammo. Finding a good defensive loading was more difficult and I had to go to Georgia Arms (IIRC, anyway) for some hotter-loaded hollow-points.

[TonyB]

I'm always weary of new calibers...of course I thought the 40 would die out,so what do I know?
But I don't hold much hope for the GAP....we'll see.....
I like the idea of the 357 sig....but unless you reload,you're stuck with full house loads.....in my 357 mags I always like to shoot 38's...:cool:

[mrapathy2000]

357sig is not really catching on if it is, its slow. another wonder9 cartridge just what the world needed. its funny reading the hype on it. it does not match up to 357magnum. matches to light 357 loads. 357sig is actually 355. wish they would of gone true 357 cause I could use it to hunt then though would be poor choice.

357sig could become popular in subcompacts over 40S&W. though bet they came out with 115gr/124-5gr bullets in 40S&W, 357sig would die out more. havent seen 40S&W FMJ vs JHP comparison against 357sig. bet 357sig would penetrate more in most area's. hole size would not be one of them.

how many wonder 9 calibers do we have now 20+? someone came out with 10mm knecked down to .355 beats the hell out of 357sig.

45gap its new some people are venturing to it.
not crazy bout it think I would rather have 45acp. 45acp has alot of classical value to it. 9mm luger/parabellum does to. both 90+ years old each.

though fitting a 45 cartridge into a 9mm sized pistol without enlarging the frame has potential imo.

wish 41AE was still around commercially.

[TaxPhd]

"The 38 super became real popular in competition during the 70s in the 1911 platform and many a gun was KBed trying to load the cartridge to major class, but that is a discussion for someone else that took part in those games and actually loaded the cartridge."

Actually, it was the '80's. Rob Leatham was looking for more mag capacity, and more gas pressure to drive the comp. Early experiments lead to a number of occasions of "Super Face." Ramped, fully supported barrels and safe and sane loading techniques have virtually made "Super Face" a non-occurance.

.38 super (or .38 Supercomp, a non-tapered version, virtually identical dimensionally to 9x23) still rules IPSC open class competition, and it is a great round for IDPA ESP division.

The next gun I have built will be a 5" Govmnt. model, stainless in .38 Supercomp. Perfect for IDPA and carry (Yes, I will roll my own carry ammo. Lack of factory .38 Supercomp ammo will make it a necessity).



Scott

[Black Snowman]

If we can keep the AWB from coming back or marching on I think .38 Super will gain in popularity as it would make for a nice thin double stack package with a LOT of ammo on tap with more power than a stock 9mm fitting in guns with just a slightly longer (front to rear) grip.

Is .38 Super the same as 9x21? If so CZ is already geared up to produce it in their 85 model and may start importing it if they percieve a demand in the states.

[TaxPhd]

Nope, 9x23.



Scott

[Boats]

The word everyone is searching for to describe these Johnny Come Lately niche rounds is fad.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

I must admit, there are some pretty impressive statements thus
far. As to why the .38 Super nor the .41 Magnum never quite
caught on in law enforcement circles, I can't. Both, were good
well designed rounds that had plenty of mv and knock down
power. And, yes by todays standards the cost of a box of 50
factory rounds will set you back a bundle.

But, the .38 Super and the .41 Magnum continue to enjoy some
success among handloader's, and target shooters. Heck, I know
a friend of mine who just shot his Colt .38 Super a few days ago.
I can address the .41 Magnum issue, I think. Delivering about
75% of the recoil and muzzle blast of the .44; most shooters
didn't see it as being much of a difference betwee a HOT 125
grain .357 Magnum JHP, and a 240 grain .44 Magnum JHP; so
they never opted to purchase weapons designed for the .41
caliber. OTOH, the .38 Super was rated real close to the stats
of the .357; but in a self-loading pistol; when everyone was
in a revolver state of mine, as being the most powerful handgun
available.

In closing, both the .38 Super and the .41 Magnum are great
and adequate calibers; and should never be over looked.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[David4516]

Black Snowman,

...I think .38 Super will gain in popularity as it would make for a nice thin double stack package with a LOT of ammo on tap with more power than a stock 9mm...

Thats exactly what I think, and thats what I was trying to get at in my post before...

But I'm not sure if gunmakers will want to run the risk of making these new pistols, because they might not sell due to the "odd" caliber :banghead:

I wish they'd make guns that make sense (like this .38 super idea) instead of wasting time on things like the .45 GAP... but they'll keep doing it as long as we gun buyers are dumb enough to buy into the latest fads...



Is .38 Super the same as 9x21?

No, someone already said 9X23, and they are right, the .38 super is "9X23", as far as dimensions go. But there is another caliber called 9X23 that works at a higher pressure, so be careful not to get them mixed up :eek:

You might blow up your .38 super pistol if you shoot 9X23 ammo in it...

Edit:

There is also another round that looks (on the outside) very similar to 9X23 or .38 Super: 9mm Largo. The Largo is a lower pressure round than the .38 Super, it's really not a big improvement of 9mm Luger. Thats probably why it didn't catch on...

But I kinda like 9mm Largo. I've got a Star Model "A" in 9mm Largo and it's fun to shoot...

[Marshall]

Personally, I think the .45 gap is a stayer and is going to more of a force to dealt with than we think. You'll have Springfield, Glock and others selling hardware for them in non-1911 style guns, that's a lot of sales!

I predict they will command a good share of the 45 caliber market within just a few years and will take some of the 40S&W sales as well.

[goon]

Lots of rounds come and go as the years go by.
Look at the .45LC, 44 Colt, 38 Colt, and .44-40. These are the rounds that were popular over 100 years ago. They sort of faded into obscurity (except the .45 LC, which still lost popularity), but they are now firmly entrenched in the niche of Cowboy action shooting. The 38 super is an old round that could still be one hell of a smoker in a defensive gun today. The .357 Sig offers defensive .357 mag revolver power in an automatic handgun, which IMO rocks.
I do think that the .45GAP sucks though. Glock should have built a single stack .45 ACP instead.

[Curare]

"Glock should have built a single stack .45 ACP instead."

Agreed.

Perhaps a larger version of the Slimline G36 (which takes a slightly staggered mag FWI)?

[goon]

Perhaps a larger version of the Slimline G36 (which takes a slightly staggered mag FWI)?

Exactly. About the size of a G19 would be just about right.

[jeff-10]

Niche market ammunition companies , the internet, ease and low cost of manufacture and lots of firearms made in different calibers have basically made it easier for more people to shoot and experiment with the less popular caliber cartidges. Its not like it was even 10 years ago where a certain caliber had to have a huge following, lots of ammunition offerings by the big 3 and so on, to survive. Sure the 38 Special, 9mm, 357 Magnum, 40S&W and 45 ACP will probably remain the most popular for the forseeable furture, but the less popular ones will still be around and even viable for self defense purposes.

[355sigfan]

I have tried almost everything. I started with the 40 sw loved it till a few blew on me. Then I tried the 357 sig. Not a bad round but then Winchester came out with the +p+ 127 grain Ranger load that was almost as fast and at the same time they introduced those 100 round value packs that made reloading the 357 sig seem pointless. Then as a firearms instructor I rediscovered the 1911. I even carried a snub 357 mag for a time and the 10 mm in a Glock 20. I have come to the conclusion I like the 1911 as a full size weapon. For times when I need a compact gun my 26 serves nicely. If I need something really small my Smith 442 in 38 special comes out. I have found that there is not much difference in stopping power between the best 9mm, 40sw, 357 sig, 10mm and 45 acp is not all that great. I also have observed that guns chambered in 9mm and 45 acp seem to run more reliably than guns chambered in 40sw,357 sig and 10mm. I believe its because 357 sigs and 40sw were re chambered 9mm's and 10mms were re chambered 45 acp's. I have a DOJ report on various pistols. The report showed that over 85% of the 9mm and 45 acp guns tested passed their tests. Only 60% of the 40sw and 357 sig guns passed. Reliability means more to me than an extra hundred feet per second or an extra .05 or an inch.
Pat

[fastbolt]

I've always thought the .38 Super was an overlooked cartridge, at least by mainstream handgun afficionados ... and the ammunition companies. I'm glad to see it making a comeback.

10mm appears to be enjoying a small return of interest, but it does seem to require a more experienced hand to properly control it and put it through its paces ...

Ditto for the .41 Magnum, except that it hasn't seemed to enjoy the same minor resurgence of interest. More's the pity ... I used to enjoy some backcountry long range shooting with a nicely balanced 3-screw Ruger chambered in this caliber when I was younger.

The think the 357SIG is a bit over-hyped for what it is ... and the much repeated anecdotal "proof" of its superiority in "stopping power" and auto body "penetration" has sort of masked the same on again-off again success/failure regarding "stopping power" as the other popular calibers have always enjoyed. It is a bit harder on some platforms, though, and the cost of quality duty-grade ammunition from the major manufacturers isn't one of its more attractive attributes. It seems to "work", but not with the smoke, thunder and fire that its die hard fans would like to so fervently believe.

By the way, I always thought that the 4" barreled .357 magnum was a compromise when it came to this venerable caliber, and that it was best typified by a 5 1/2"-6 1/2" barreled revolver when it came right down to it ... at least as far as controllability and maximizing the performance of the older ammunition. Just my opinion ... and I really did have reasonable confidence when carrying my M66 & M686, which I was issued at different times, as well as my snub nosed Magnums. I just thought the longer barrels made for a better use of the caliber, all things considered.

9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP have pretty much "proven" their staying power, so to speak, when it comes to L/E & non-L/E personal defensive calibers. Of course, the ammunition makers have helped this along with vast improvements in bullet designs and powder technologies.

I might have to revise my previous opinion regarding .45 G.A.P., now that at least Winchester has somehow redesigned the case to allow for the use of 230gr bullets. After all, what's the difference between a 230gr T-Series .45 bullet traveling 885fps fired from a .45 ACP case, versus the same bullet traveling at the same velocity fired from a .45 G.A.P. case? Of course, I'm one of those apparently dwindling number of folks that feel the 185gr & 200gr .45 bullets aren't as useful overall as the 230gr bullets, and I'm less and less enthused about +P pressures in .45 pistols as time goes by ...

The G.A.P. may indeed attract some increasing interest among the folks who just can't wrap their hands, or minds, around the larger framed pistol platforms which use double column maagzines ... or who, for whatever reason, aren't interested in any version of a 1911 platform. That doesn't really bother me ... live & let live. I find I can relatively easily use the current crop of compact & subcompact .45 ACP pistols available in the marketplace ... and I don't begrudge anyone else from taking advantage of the slightly smaller framed pistols starting to emerge, based around the slightly smaller dimensioned G.A.P. case.

I do think the 9mm and .40 S&W are going to remain the leading calibers, though, for a number of reasons ... followed closely by the .45 ACP ... 357SIG/.45 G.A.P. ... and perhaps the 10mm closing the GAP (intentional pun, I'm afraid) ... ;) ... And, I'd like to see the .38 Super advance into this horse race once again, especially if the platform bears the Colt Pony on the side.

I do think that continuing advances in technology will throw us all some curves, though ... :scrutiny:

[Marshall]

I predict the Gap becoming a cartridge of the future. I predict the 10mm going by the wayside from firearm manufacturers for all practical purposes. I predict the 41 mag staying right where it is or falling, with 357 power and 44 mag, there really is no reason to have a 41 mag. The 9mm and 40 S&W becoming even more popular than they are today. I predict the 45 acp staying forever but loosing sales to the .45 Gap and .40 S&W. The .357 Sig is the only one I feel uncertain about. I would guess it will always stay though loose sales except for LE.

Just my opinions and guesses. :)

[JiminCA]

Lots of good observations here.

My observation is that the success of the 45 GAP will depend on manufacturers other than Glock picking it up. Since it uses a shorter action (same as 9mm and 40 S&W), there are a lot of guns out there that could be adapted. If you're buying a gun and the same frame size gives you a 9mm, 40SW, and 45 GAP, whatcha gonna buy? I think it will be a real serious option.


So I think 45 GAP could go places once (if) manufacturers step up the adoption rate. CCW holders will be quite tempted.

I think 38 super is poised for a bit of a revival now that CorBon and a few others are actually making SD rounds that have some sizzle. Almost all of the commercial stuff recently has had nothing better than 9mm +P velocities - hardly a reason to get excited. Reloaders have always loved it - plenty of pop and 9mm conponents are cheap and plentiful. If you like a 1911 it is a potent package - 1350 fps from a 125 gr projectile. But the round is based on a 1.250 OAL that is 1911 friendly and demands a longer action than most mfgs are willing to base new development on. So that will limit it in the future as most "modern" actions are based on the 1.1xx length cartridges. Still, heavy IPSC use dictates it will be around for a while.

FWIW I have 1911's in 45ACP, 10mm, 357 sig, 40S&W, and 38 super. The 40 S&W and 357 sig are the most problematic, and I'm sure it is because of the shorter cartridge. All I have to do is long load the cartridges (over spec max) and they run like champs.

I think 357 sig can only go so far. The reason is that it isn't very versatile wrt its ballistic sweet spot. It is optimum with a 124 gr projectile. The heavier stuff and lighter stuff aren't that great in it IMO. As such it will probably stay a LE round. It is a pain to reload (I have two guns in it and I reload 'em). My other observation with this round is that a little crud on the taper in the chamber goes a long way toward causing jams. Much more so than other cartridges. Now that doesn't matter for a guy shooting a few rounds in a gunfight, but for competition, or extended range sessions it is not desirable. My 45's go 500 rounds with no probs. After about 200 rounds of 357 sig, the guns can get unreliable.

41 mag? I dunno. Don't have experience with it. But it doesn't seem to have any catalyst for it to jump out from its "between" 357 and 44 status.

40 S&W managed to jump out between 9 and 45 because of LE adoption rates, and its ease of piggybacking on existing 9mm designs. I think there's a lot to be said for a new cartridge being able to be easily adapted to existing designs.

[Caliburn]

Great discussion here, guys! It answered a lot of things that had been rattling in the back of my mind.

Does 10mm have a last name, like 9x19 something? What's the OAL?

[JiminCA]

10mm nominal OAL is 1.260. 10, 45, and 38 super all have max OAL's of 1.270-1.280. Most load them in the 1.260 range.

10mm has no "last name"

[mrapathy2000]

you mean the metric name for 10mm. probably 10x25

[roo_ster]

Alduro:

I loved your dad's choice of weaponry with the exception of .41AE, which might have been a decent round, but was killed by .40S&W.

.45GAP
"Oh, and yes the GAP is ballistically equal too or superior to the .45 ACP."

Close, but not quite accurate, I'd think.

To equal the .45ACP, the .45GAP has to operate at higher pressures. So, a .45GAP with 200gr bullet can equal a .45ACP with 200gr bullets. If you open the envelope to .45ACP+P or .45Super, the .45GAP will lose out. Until this thread, I had not heard of a 230gr .45GAP round...looks equal, MV & ME-wise to .45ACP hardball, from what Winchester claims.

I guess it might be a way for a manufacturer to cheap out and make a ".45" without developing a new frame to handle the .45ACP.

My prediction....it'll be a flash in the pan and then go the way of the .41AE.

.38Super
Good round that will not see the poularity of 9mm & .40S&W due to the requirement for a larger frame. Will stick around in competition indefinitely. Can you say "21 roung magazine in a 1911 platform," children?

.41AE
Died in infancy.

.357Sig
Another 9mm. The world is littered with defunct 9mm cartridges. .357Sig might stick around in some LE/CCW applications. Not the equal of .357Mag. 9mm +P+ is its biggest threat.

.44Spl
A fine round. If you like yours big & slow, .44Spl is the way to go. .44Spl owes its life to the many .44Mag guns around...taht most can't shoot well when stoked with .44Mag.

10mm
A true magnum round in an autoloader. Not nearly as fearsome as most describe. Not equal to the .41Mag, but close.

.41Mag
Will remain a handloader's round & will not pick up a following.

[gripper]

I like the 5-5.5 inch .357's myself(hard to find in a revolver,I know).>357 sig? I like that fine as well,mostly due to the efficient use of case volume,slick feeding&reliability(bottleneck case),and th eease of swapping calibers(.40)via a barrel cahnge in most guns.
Hey,on that note,what about .45Super conversions( you stilkl can shoot >45ACP in same barrel) and a .400 corbon (.45 necked down to .40)barrel? Talk about versatile......:p :evil: :neener: