5/3 Bank No Carry Zone


PDA






Barbara
August 27, 2004, 10:16 PM
This is an exchange between a friend and the bank:

Yesterday, following up on a post on Ohioans for Concealed Crry's website, I wrote the following request to Fifth Third Bank

Our business is a Fifth Third customer here in Hillsdale, MI. As I am a Michigan Concealed Weapon's permit holder, I regularly carry my licensed firearm when I do my daily banking. Today, I was sent a copy of a response from Fifth Third's customer service department regarding their policy about customers carrying firearms in their branches. It reads:
"Thank you for using Fifth Third Banking and for providing us the opportunity to service your needs. In response to your recent inquiry, the safety of our customers is important to Fifth Third Bank. To limit the anxiety and concerns of the majority of our customers, we have chosen not to allow the carrying of concealed weapons in our banking centers.

Kathy H. Fifth Third Internet Bank"

As this particular question was posed by a customer from Ohio, I am concerned whether that this policy applies to all of your branches or just those within that state.

I would appreciate knowing whether or not I may carry my firearm in your Michigan locations and if I may, why I may not in neighboring Ohio which is only 9 miles from my home. If I may not, then I assume that I will need to find another bank.

Thanks,
_____




Today, I received the following reply. I'll be taking a copy of this reply in this afternoon when I close out our account.

You may contact them yourselves at www.fifththird.com

Dear _____:

Thank you for using Fifth Third Internet Banking and for providing us the opportunity to service your needs. In response to recent inquiry, the safety of our customers is important to 5/3 and to limit the anxiety and concerns of the majority of our customers we have chosen to not allow the carrying of concealed weapons. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your business and look forward to serving you in the future. If you require any further assistance, please email us 24 hours a day or contact a Customer Service Professional at 1-800-972-3030, Monday through Friday between 7:00 AM and 12:00 AM, ET, Saturday or Sunday from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM, ET. At Fifth Third Bank, We're "Working Hard To Be The Only Bank You'll Ever Need. ®"
Randy R
Fifth Third Internet Banking

If you enjoyed reading about "5/3 Bank No Carry Zone" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
glocksman
August 27, 2004, 11:05 PM
They may not allow it, but they don't post their policy in any of their Indiana locations, so screw 'em. I carry in my area 5/3 branches whenever I want to.

Barbara
August 27, 2004, 11:10 PM
Well, that'll certainly prove useful in changing company policy!

:D

R.H. Lee
August 27, 2004, 11:19 PM
Fifth Third Bank? That's a very funny name for a second rate bank. You won't change company policy. Just go ahead and carry anyway. Do they have metal detectors at the door? So they won't know about it. If you like the bank and the service is great, keep 'em. What they don't know won't hurt them.

I've blown off banks before for rude crappy service, not to mention names, but the initials are Bank of America, and Santa Lucia Bank.

ExtremeDooty
August 27, 2004, 11:24 PM
Fifth Third is a stupid name for a bank anyway. I closed my account there when it was still Old Kent.

Barbara
August 27, 2004, 11:43 PM
Well, we have an account there..living here in the sticks, its hard to find a bank with branches in other cities. Still, if they don't change the policy, we're moving our account.

Standing Wolf
August 27, 2004, 11:46 PM
I don't do business with organizations that believe they're entitled to prevent me from exercising my civil rights.

Mark13
August 28, 2004, 12:57 AM
Instead of writing a letter asking them to change their policy, which they don't seem inclined to do, why don't you inquire as to how they will be enforcing their no weapons policy?

A policy with no enforcement is no policy. So if they are not going to enforce it, then ask them why they have the policy in the first place? If you are feeling extra ballsy(and if there is no penalty for violating a "no weapons" posting), why not inform them that you will be ignoring their policy?

Sergeant Sabre
August 28, 2004, 04:13 AM
In Michigan if you violate one of those "don't carry in here" zones that private businesses set up, you're only guilty of trespassing (and then only when they detect your weapon and ask you to leave)

Wildalaska
August 28, 2004, 02:32 PM
I don't do business with organizations that believe they're entitled to prevent me from exercising my civil rights.

I dunno Wolf, ya got an awful lot of businesses in there and unless you are using Linux, your OS is put out by one of those companies...:)

WildcarryinthebankanywaywhataretheygonnadogiveyabackyermoneyAlaska

Chris Rhines
August 28, 2004, 03:45 PM
...your OS is put out by one of those companies... God forgive me for defending Microsoft, but Microsoft the corporation is not anti-gun to the best of my knowledge. Bill Gates, the person, is anti-gun, and has donated money to various anti-gun hate groups. I have read that the Microsoft Gun Club has fought back by sending matching donations to the NRA, et al.

- Chris

MMcCall
August 29, 2004, 02:02 AM
Bill Gates != Microsoft as a whole. I used to shoot at WSI in Bellevue with a couple guys that were on the MS shooting team.

WhiteKnight
August 29, 2004, 03:57 PM
Hmmm. Here in NC you can't carry into any financial instituion, period.

El Tejon
August 29, 2004, 05:39 PM
White, geez, that stinks. No carry zones are just plain silly. Glad I live in gun friendly Yankeeland.

Don't have any accounts with 5th3d, maybe send them a letter telling them I might switch if they change their policy in other states.:)

2nd Amendment
August 29, 2004, 06:13 PM
Called a buddy of mine who's executive VP in Charge of Annoyances, or some such Department, at a 5/3 bank...he said "Yeah, right, sure. whatever. What the (deleted for Art's Granny) don't know won't hurt 'em." As such I suspect in Indiana at least the policy is, umm...not strongly enforced. :)

TonyB
August 29, 2004, 09:45 PM
Ask them if they're gonna protect you and the other customers when some scum hole comes in and robs the place and starts killing people......the anxiety of the customers......how....if it's concealed,it's concealed..just another liberal organization........:banghead:

Andrew Rothman
August 30, 2004, 12:58 AM
...the safety of our customers is important to Fifth Third Bank. To limit the anxiety and concerns of the majority of our customers, we have chosen not to allow the carrying of concealed weapons in our banking centers.

Because the safety of your customers is important, the bank wants to limit customers' anxiety and concerns?

Um, but, lady, I mean, you know that those two things have nothing to do with each other, right?

Try this: "The financial security of our customers' accounts is important to us. To limit the anxiety and concerns of the majority of our customers, we have chosen not to allow black cats, broken mirrors or the number 13 in our banking centers."

It makes just as much sense.

Henry Bowman
August 30, 2004, 10:18 AM
The real question that the original poster failed to ask is whether 5/3 posts "no guns" signs at Indiana or Kentucky branches (report on Indiana noted). If not, that provides ammo when writing to them (based in Cincinnati, OH). Why do you trust us less than your IN or KY customers? Those states have had CCW for many, many years w/o a problem. In Ohio, 5/3 branches are being robbed at a rate of about 2 a week. Indiana allows CCW with no training and at age 18. KY requires less training. We are not trying to get In and KY branches posted, just point out the irrationality of their Ohio gun phobia.

In Michigan if you violate one of those "don't carry in here" zones that private businesses set up, you're only guilty of trespassing (and then only when they detect your weapon and ask you to leave)
But in Ohio it's not just a trespass or a "you must leave when asked," it's a felony. Bad law. Needs fixed.

Ktulu
August 30, 2004, 10:38 AM
"The financial security of our customers' accounts is important to us. To limit the anxiety and concerns of the majority of our customers, we have chosen not to allow black cats, broken mirrors or the number 13 in our banking centers."

...or improper fractions.

effengee
August 30, 2004, 10:57 AM
Never been bothered when I tuck it under my shirt...
I go into banks, package stores, gas stations, and the rare run to the licquor store, carrying a concealed firearm all the time...
It doesn't seem to bother most people.
Maybe because I "look" like just an average guy doing some errands.
That I prefer to do them armed is my choice and my right to KEEP and BEAR arms. I'm not a member of the militia, I'm not a criminal, I'm a member of "the people" that are mentioned throughout the constitution and BOR.
My firearm is no more dangerous to the majority of patrons on my hip than the firearm on the hip of any given police officer...
Do "they" really think that just because a person puts on a uniform or carries a recognizable identification that the person becomes instantly devoid of criminal deeds, thoughts or intentions?

:confused:


"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago everybody knew the earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago you knew people were alone on this planet. Imagine what we'll know tomorrow."
Agent Kay, of The Men In Black...

sendec
August 30, 2004, 11:14 AM
At least 2 people in this thread have alluded to the potential for being in the middle of a robbery. IMHO, unless BGs are starting to kill hostages or something equally drastic, this is not the time for gunplay. It would be an excellent opportunity to get shot by responding officers, or that layoff man who the robbers placed in the building prior to the robbery, just to deal with heros and to cover their escape. The bank's money is'nt worth your life. Be a good witness.

Does anyone actually know what 5/3rd means?

Stand_Watie
August 30, 2004, 11:22 AM
Does anyone actually know what 5/3rd means?

It means "Old Kent sounds too much like a brand of cigarettes and 1st and 2nd were all already taken".

CatsDieNow
August 30, 2004, 12:44 PM
If I remember correctly 5/3 was the result of a "fifth bank" and a "third bank" merging.

tyme
August 30, 2004, 12:49 PM
History

Fifth Third traces its origins to the Bank of the Ohio Valley, which opened its doors in Cincinnati in 1858. In 1871, that bank was purchased by the Third National Bank. With the turn of the century came the union of the Third National Bank and the Fifth National Bank, and eventually the organization became known as "Fifth Third Bank." Since its beginning, Fifth Third has provided superior customer service and followed sound banking principles.

JerryM
August 30, 2004, 04:36 PM
I agree with sendec.

We CHL holders must realize that we are not cops or off-duty cops. We have neither the authority nor responsibilities that they do.

It might be more dangerous to take any action to stop the crime than to let it play out. I don't think most bank robberies include killing. To draw and try to stop the robbers could very well cause others to be shot unnecessarily. Imagine that you started shooting and someone else got shot. It might be said that it was your fault, and if you had just stayed calm then no one would have been hurt, and that is probably true.
Of course when the BG indicate that they are about to shoot or do shoot then it is another story.

For me, they can rob the bank and I will just stand by unless there is violence that makes me believe I am in danger or maybe someoe else. The circumstances dictate what I would do.

Businesses and banks do not expect their employees to get into a gun battle to protect the cash, and I do not intend to do it either.

Jerry

effengee
August 30, 2004, 05:25 PM
I carry because I can. PERIOD.
If a potential criminal is "scoping" out the place, he's gonna see the buldge under my shirt and may just think twice before starting any crap...
If not, then I'm gonna be the most likely first target and not Suzy Homemaker behind the counter...

If Mr. Bad Guy is too nervous to draw, you can bet it was worth it...

Faced with the prospect of being fired upon is not my first choice for negotiation, nor do I go around aching to "Deathwish" some criminal puke.

If carrying does any harm, it is to the criminal mindset that preys upon the weak and timid...Predators usually go after the old, the young, and the sickly... It's easier pickings...
I know alot of women who carry. Granted, it may never stop an actual crime, but with it in their purse, they walk a little tougher, and step with a little more confidence. Just that is sometimes enough to stop the common "thug". I hate to think what would really happen if somebody was robbing the store where I was getting a gallon of milk for my kids...
But I would find it my moral obligation and my duty to my fellow man to attempt to divert his firearm towards a more level battlefield...
If he decides to escalate to the next level, then I would have to respond and go all the way, even to my grave, to uphold my firm belief that if I am to carry an arm for my defense, then it is in the best interests of everyone that I carry it in their defense as well...

I humbly step off the proverbial soapbox...

Jimbo

JerryM
August 30, 2004, 07:29 PM
Jimbo,

[ I hate to think what would really happen if somebody was robbing the store where I was getting a gallon of milk for my kids...
But I would find it my moral obligation and my duty to my fellow man to attempt to divert his firearm towards a more level battlefield...
If he decides to escalate to the next level, then I would have to respond and go all the way, even to my grave, to uphold my firm belief that if I am to carry an arm for my defense, then it is in the best interests of everyone that I carry it in their defense as well...]

Are you saying that if you were in a convenience store or a bank and someone came in and said that he was going to rob the place, that you would draw and start shooting if he did not give up?

What are you really saying?
Just curious.

Jerry

ExtremeDooty
August 30, 2004, 07:43 PM
How many times have we seen on the convenience store camera where the cashier cooperates and then gets shot anyway. If you are there with a gun and do nothing people will ask "why didn't you help that poor cashier?"

It's a tough decision to have to make quickly and under pressure. And no matter what you do someone is likely to say you did the wrong thing. Hopefully if I decide to get involved, the security camera and the cashier will back me up.

effengee
August 30, 2004, 08:18 PM
Yes, if I was in a store, and the situation presented itself, I would draw and ask them to stop robbing the place.
That gives the clerk enough time to sound the alarm or call 911
Of course, finding a good defensive position/posture while drawing goes without saying...
I'm not gonna just whip it out and spew some Hollywood movie line...

If the shooting starts, then in my state, deadly force is approved.

Again, I'd hate for it to happen, but I'd have to do something...
I know the local clerks by first name, not because it's on their tag, but because most of these people I've known my whole life.
It's not about being a hero, it's simply about people that I care deeply for.
I know more than a few people who carry at work...
I know any one of them would rather die fighting than to be executed.

"If we don't hang together, then we will surely hang separately."

JerryM
August 30, 2004, 08:29 PM
Thanks for the reply.
Jerry

effengee
August 30, 2004, 09:03 PM
As I said, I'm no hero, but I'd hate to see one of my best friends splattered all over the cigarette display while I cowered behind the donuts...
If I have a handgun and don't or won't use it to defend my life and the lives of those I love, then do I really need one?
That's purely a rhetorical question, OF COURSE I still need it!
A police officer will try to take you into custody...
If you are breaking into my house at 3 am, I'm not reaching for a phone and you ain't leaving on your feet...
Sorry, but that's the way it is...

Besides, this is Vermont. The "hardcore" criminals all know that we don't dial 911 we call .357 :evil:

" I do not love the sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend"
J.R.R.Tolkien

ExtremeDooty
August 30, 2004, 09:19 PM
How many times have we seen on the convenience store camera where the cashier cooperates and then gets shot anyway. If you are there with a gun and do nothing people will ask "why didn't you help that poor cashier?"

It's a tough decision to have to make quickly and under pressure. And no matter what you do someone is likely to say you did the wrong thing. Hopefully if I decide to get involved, the security camera and the cashier will back me up.

JerryM
August 30, 2004, 10:21 PM
Although I have not kept tabs, I think many more none-violent robberies are recorded than violent.

If you were there with your wife and kids, would you draw and command to stop?
Would you draw and shoot, and often there are two or even three thugs?

If there was a history in the town of robberies without shooting or violence, then I would be very inclined to try to stay out of the way and let it go.

But if the history was of the thugs shooting the clerks and/or bystanders then that is a different story. But again, realize that there are usually two or more robbers, and if they are both armed it is almost sure that there will be shots scattered and who knows who will get shot.

Jerry

sendec
August 30, 2004, 11:56 PM
Nobody's quite as dangerous as a hero.....

Unless there is a dire iminent threat, please, let the police handle it. They'll wait 'til the knuckleheads are outside and then take'em down. For all you know there could be a couple SWATters in the backroom trying to communicate to you by telepathy to get out of my line of fire. Typically the goal in managing a robbery is to pop the guys outside, maybe even letting them drive to a "safer" area- ie one where stray rounds will not do a lot of damage. We want to avoid at all cost the perps holding hostages inside the store. Also, to reinforce a comment I made earlier, it is not unusual for the "good" bad guys, the smart ones who know what they are doing, to have another BG impersonate a customer, so to speak. This is the one who'll shoot you in the back as you are trying to outshoot the other guys in front of you.

Another thing to think about- suppose they start searching the customers? Uh oh, you've got a decision to make. In the Princess Gate incident the Constable who was being held hostage was armed with a concealed gun. The terrs never found it, mainly 'cause he never went to the restroom where it would have been discovered. But if they had.......

Skirmisher
August 31, 2004, 10:05 AM
The FifthThird is not posted in MI so it is legal to carry concealed. The Ohioians are going through the "first year jitters" concerning their very new CCW laws. Many stores and banks in Ohio are posting but not in other branches in other states that have CCW. Since you are limited to banks by location, I wouldn't worry about carrying concealed in MI or IN as a matter of fact. Son lives in IN and banks at FifthThird, always armed.

:D

Barbara
August 31, 2004, 07:32 PM
I don't understand that, though. If they don't welcome gun owners, why support them? SAFR has an account there, until Friday.

dav
September 1, 2004, 07:07 PM
If they don't welcome gun owners, why support them?I've got to agree with you, Barbara. It isn't about 'can you get away with it', it is about 'should you have to break the law to do what you need to do'?

We can't know the inclinations of every business or business owner, but if they are going so far out of their way as to post that I am not welcome, then I believe them. If I'm not welcome, I try not to go there.

I don't want to get personal, but at least one here has no reason to carry a gun. If you won't ever use it, it simply puts you in more danger.

Whether bad guys usually shoot or not is a silly question. If they start shooting at me, I want to be able to respond. No heroism. Life on the line, defend yourself, or quit carrying.

JerryM
September 1, 2004, 07:42 PM
dav,
[I don't want to get personal, but at least one here has no reason to carry a gun. If you won't ever use it, it simply puts you in more danger.

Whether bad guys usually shoot or not is a silly question. If they start shooting at me, I want to be able to respond. No heroism. Life on the line, defend yourself, or quit carrying.]

I wonder how you have reached that conclusion about any poster here? A CHL is an enormous responsibility. It is not a license to try to find situations where you can prove something.

It is a stretch to say that one should not be wise and consider whether the situation is such that one should shoot, and to say that if they shoot...

Sure you want to be able to respond, and no one here has said otherwise. The point that some have made is that we are not LEOs. We do not have the responsibility or authority of an LEO.
For example, I have no responsibility to attempt to stop a robbery in Wendy's. To attempt to do so, and with other people there is to unnecessarily endanger everyone there. Would you want someone in there to start shooting and 2 BG begin to shoot when your children were in there? I would hope not. But I fear that is what you may be thinking you would do.

Defending yourself is not being a hero or trying to be a cop. Under normal circumstances it is much better for the cops to handle it than to try to do it yourself. Note I said "normal circumstances."
In fact as has been said, it is probable that even a cop would not start anything inside unless violence seemed imminent in his judgment.

If you ever are in a store and it is being robbed with no great evidence that there is about to be violence, and if you start shooting, and if someone gets hurt, you will rue the day. Lawyer fees will break you and you will likely go to prison. The survivors of those killed will have NO sympathy for the fact that you were trying to prevent some amount of money from being stolen.

Now having said all that, l would not do business with a bank that prohibited concealed carry if I had a choice. I would not try to stop a robbery if I were in there, but if violence started I would do whatever I could at the time. It would not be to save the bank's money.

Jerry

deanf
September 1, 2004, 11:20 PM
I don't do business with organizations that believe they're entitled to prevent me from exercising my civil rights.

Well you must not do a lot of business then.

The fact is they are entitled to prevent you from exercising your constitutional rights. The Bill of Rights only restricts government, not private parties.

If carrying a gun was a "civil" right, then it would be a different story.

Barbara
September 2, 2004, 05:54 AM
Can a bank refuse to wait on me because I'm a woman or someone else because they're black?

I do agree they have the right not to allow concealed carry. I also have the right not to bank at their institution. I'd go so far as to say I have an obligation not to bank there.

Model520Fan
September 2, 2004, 09:27 AM
JerryM wrote very well. For public places, I don't think I would add to that. Regarding home, please remember that 911 is a long-distance number; if you need help, use 1911.

effengee
September 2, 2004, 10:22 AM
I've heard this from a comedian, but I don't remember which one...
"Dial 911 and Dominoes at the same time. You'll be eating pizza before the cops show up"
I know that the police do everything they can to protect us from crime, but with ratios in some cities like 1 cop to every 5,000 people we all know that to say "spread thin" is seriously short of the mark...
Here in Vermont:
I don't need a special permit to carry my handgun concealed.
I don't need a special permit to carry my hundgun un-concealed.
I've carried un-concealed while shopping/banking and have had the police called on me, people freaking out, and even once (jokingly of course) challenged to "Slap leather and draw, pardner" from a fellow gunner...
Carrying concealed, with no intention of commiting a crime, is perfectly legal. Not only that, ALL of the police, from town constables to State Troopers, will tell you to keep it concealed in Vermont.
As one Trooper once put it:
"We'd prefer you conceal it. Otherwise it scares the hell out of the tourists."

As a police officer in uniform, people see a handgun and think nothing of it...
As a John Q. Public, in a T-shirt and denim shorts, the exact same handgun becomes a Weapon Of Mass Destruction that causes the owner to become a vicious killer who would shoot women and children at the drop of a hat...

Stereotypes about firearms are the most un-informed, un-educated, and even outright ignorant, of all the prejudices...

I love to hear this bit of rhetoric about guns:

"There's no need for assault weapons and handguns, only the police and military need those kinds of guns"

Whenever I hear that I say:

"Really? Because that kind of thinking is exactly how genocides occur"

"Well, we don't need to worry about that. Not here."

Which is when I reply:

"That's what they thought over there."

This conversation has played itself out quite a few times.
Maybe not verbatim, but relatively close.

As Larry "git-r-done" the cable guy once said;
"Saying that guns cause crime is like saying pencils cause illiteracy."

jim

deanf
September 3, 2004, 01:37 AM
Can a bank refuse to wait on me because I'm a woman or someone else because they're black?

No. They should be able to, but that's a different argument. The right to service at the bank even if you're a woman or black or whatever, is a civil right. As I understand it, a civil right is a right that is codified by the legislature. It's protections may apply to private matters (the bank), public matters (the government), or both.

A constitutional right is listed there in The Constitution, or is implied by it (as in Article X of the Bill of Rights). Of course the Constitution only restrains the powers of government. It has nothing to do with private matters.

V-fib
September 3, 2004, 02:23 AM
I wasn’t happy when 5/3’rd took over Ameribank a few years ago and I haven’t found a replacement bank yet. Hart’s tellers are very nice. Fremont's tellers are a bunch of (rhymes with riches). However I’ve never seen any signs in the 5/3 banks I have gone to and even if I did I’d ignore them. :cool:

R.H. Lee
September 3, 2004, 11:26 PM
I do agree they have the right not to allow concealed carry.I still don't understand how they're gonna enforce that. Concealed is concealed. An uneforceable rule is no rule at all. What if they made a rule that all customers must wear green underwear?

Barbara
September 4, 2004, 01:18 PM
Account closed.

If you enjoyed reading about "5/3 Bank No Carry Zone" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!