Can bullet design go any further?


August 27, 2004, 10:56 PM
We have a miriad selection of defence ammo to choose from .... plethora of JHP's ..... frangibles ... solid copper ..... PowRball ... etc.

Any possibilities remaining? I cannot think of any right now - well, that are ''legal''!:p I don't think depleted Uranium is on the cards. :rolleyes:

How many ''explosive'' bullets have there been made - in small calibers of course?

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August 27, 2004, 11:24 PM
you never know. Maybe soon somebody will decide that there are better metals to use than lead (tungsten maybe) or better shapes for the lead core of a copper jacketed bullet. Actually, I would think using tungsten instead of lead would make for deeper-penetrating bullets (maybe for DG hunting?)

August 27, 2004, 11:37 PM
I think speer already employs a tungsten core in their DG solids. Wouldn't want the tungsten itself engaging the rifling-a couple of shots and you own a smoothbore!

August 28, 2004, 12:16 AM
I think absolutely they will come up with better performing stuff. Just like hydra-shok was perhaps one of the best rounds available 10 to 12 years ago but has been surpassed by better performing stuff, the same thing will happen with our current rounds. They'll figure out better performing designs and better alloys, superexpanding rounds etc....

brad cook

August 28, 2004, 12:22 AM
I envision a future when bullets fire a smaller bullet upon impact....coated in cyanide.

August 28, 2004, 12:52 AM
I still have some explosive bullets in 9mm, .45 ACP & .38 Special that came out in the late '70s. I'm not sure how effective they ever were -- thankfully never had to use them. Today, they're probably worth a lot more as collector's items than as duty ammo.

I also recall Herters, Inc. selling "wasp waist" bullets around the mid- to late '60s. The theory was that the lessened bore contact (front and rear of bearing surfaces) increased velocity, and that the shape itself was inherently more stable. Didn't see any of the major manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon. :rolleyes:

The PowrBall just goes to show that not every possible design has been explored.

Jim March
August 28, 2004, 12:53 AM
Cross the Speer Gold Dot with it's jacket thin yet firmly stuck to the lead, with the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball "rubber ball in the nose" concept. Oh ya. A Pow'R'Ball that can't shed it's jacket :D.

August 28, 2004, 01:54 AM
It's not a case of what is needed. It's a case of the human need to experiment.

August 28, 2004, 04:36 AM
to be honest, I see higher velocity projectiles of increasing size. Right now, the 5.56mm is a high velocity yet devastating (when used correctly) round. It has shown its ability to wound time and time again.

I think well see the projectiles grow larger and maybe a way to accelerate them after leaving the barrel. The bullets get bigger but they also go a lot faster. Its a great way to damage an enemy from a distance as well as up close.

August 28, 2004, 08:05 AM
tungsten core

From what I understand there are two types of tungsten cored ammo.

The first was the KTW round. The KTW round was made using tungsten due to the hardness of tungsten. It was made in handgun calibres (Do not know if there were rifle calibers or not) It was made to pierce soft body armour. It was only sold to police/goverment. ( IIRC it was developed by a police officer) This is where the myth of the teflon coated bullet started. In order to reduce wear on the barrell some of the bullets were coated in Teflon. The Teflon was only present to reduce wear. It did
nothing to enhance penetration. This type of ammo is illegal in most states and I believe federally as well.

Second type is currently being sold and uses tungsten for it's high density. The tungsten is powdered and mixed to form the core, so although it is heavy it does not have the same armour penatration capabilities.


August 28, 2004, 08:58 AM
Whether it be changes in material, design, or manufacturing technique, there's always room for improvement. I think an intelligent dual-density rifle round that can defeat soft armor and then completely fragment would be the bees knees.

August 28, 2004, 09:46 AM
Well, for readers of John Ringo's science fiction, I kinda like the idea of a bullet containing a small charge of anti-matter...

:what: :evil: :D

August 28, 2004, 10:22 AM
Seems to me you could mix the technologies a little, like putting a small, sharp double-cone shaped dot of tungsten on the tip of something like a gold dot or a hydrashock..... the tungsten tip would penetrate the armor and start to expand the rest of the round, which is already past the armor layer by that time...

That'd probably work much better in a rifle round though :)

August 28, 2004, 11:04 AM
How about heat seeking bullets? :evil:

August 28, 2004, 11:07 AM
Seems to me you could mix the technologies a little, like putting a small, sharp double-cone shaped dot of tungsten on the tip of something like a gold dot or a hydrashock..... the tungsten tip would penetrate the armor and start to expand the rest of the round, which is already past the armor layer by that time...

Sounds like you want....(drum roll) Black Rhino ammunition.

Pilgrim :D

August 28, 2004, 11:23 AM
What about the "caseless ammo"?

Or perhaps "gun cleaning" ammo?:D :D :D :D :D

August 28, 2004, 05:35 PM
well damn, there goes my patent. :)

A while ago someone posted a video from the shootout at blackwater. There, they had some new bullet (I think they called it "bonded metal") that would penetrate up to 1" of steel but would fragment into dust upon hitting a soft target (like drywall or tissue). The video showed the bullet entering a pot roast and leaving the expected wound channel and everything, but nothing came out the other side. They also showed it shooting through a metal plate. I think the idea was that two types of metal were used to make the bullet and when they were heated enough (caused by friction of passing through a soft target) the bullet would essentially go through it's manufacturing process backwards. Armor and other hard targets don't generate enough friction to heat the round enough, so it goes through it.

August 28, 2004, 05:56 PM
Phased plasma rifle over 40 watt range for me.

Standing Wolf
August 28, 2004, 08:57 PM
What about the "caseless ammo"?
Or perhaps "gun cleaning" ammo?

Double bingo!

August 28, 2004, 09:13 PM
Light gas guns.Shoot a similar projectile as available now @ 10x the speed.

August 28, 2004, 09:50 PM
problem w/ a lt gas gun using like hydrogen is throwing a 30 gr. slug at roughly 26,460 fps. the recoil would be absurd.


August 28, 2004, 10:34 PM
Atek3?Who's to say that a bullet of say 1 grn or less @ 30,000 fps wouldn't work.I don't know enough about them to say for sure but,hey,anythings possible right?;)

August 29, 2004, 12:38 PM
1 grn or less @ 30,000 fps heck ... all but one foot ton energy!! I wonder how much velocity would decay with something so light with regard to density of air and thus drag. Mind you - BC would probably be most advantageous.

Over penetration (close range) comes to mind as a problem!!!:p

August 29, 2004, 01:59 PM
gotta love the sci fi staple - the "gauss needler."

August 29, 2004, 04:25 PM
Technology will almost always provide an answer to an actual or a prceived need. That will keep new designs coming out. Perceived need powers marketing which will come up with something new just to keep sales up.

Most of the bullet designs available have been tried in the past. many were sucessful but not marketed well, most forgotten after the novelty wore off.
I have a couple of those Herters "Wasp Waist Sonic Bullets". I think they were designed areound the "Area Rule" for drag, great idea just that you really can't detect the advantages within normal ranges, just like boat tail bullets.


Desert Dog
August 29, 2004, 09:43 PM
Type 1 phaser for me thank you... :D

August 29, 2004, 09:46 PM
Phaser. Barring that, a .50bmg necked down to a grain of sand made of tungsten. Oooh, a tungsten flechette round, but only one spike....

How about Mercury-cored lead/copper jacket hollow points? As the lead expands the mercury keeps going and causes more damage and gets out into the body causing massive damage because of its density, with the added effect of insanity/inftertility/death. :D

"Now that's just mean!" Fairfax, from the movie Payback

August 29, 2004, 10:26 PM
I always did do better in English than math.:o :)

August 30, 2004, 04:06 AM
Ya - rekon there are huge advances in the gause way....

imagine a room temperature supercooler mounted so the magnets don't get to hot... launching... whatever... <rofl>

Read about the caseless ammo stuff too...

and the machine gun thingie that launches wall after wall of bullets out of a tube... each ignited electronicly from a tub magazine/barrel.... one after the other... the launching of the one bullet expands the next bullet so that leak-through doesn't also make IT go off...a nd the one after it... and... etc....


all sorts of stuff... just the tech, the knowhow, and the need for it that matter... and since there is always a need for military arms.... there will always be advancements in the field... +)


August 30, 2004, 08:38 AM
Or perhaps "gun cleaning" ammo?:D :D :D :D :D

Been done. ;) When the .58 Springfield musket was standard issue, the US army introduced lead bullets with zinc washers around them near the base to scrape out fouling. I think soldiers were expected to fire one of these every tenth shot or so...

August 30, 2004, 10:41 AM
I've been thinking of a two-stage round. This would only work in long cases, like a .38. There would be a sabot in something like .17 on the top and a full-sized round underneath. IF (and here's a big IF), you can get both rounds to hit the same point, you'd give the second round excellent penetration because the small first round would have punched a hole in the surface and his big brother could sail in behind.

August 30, 2004, 10:56 AM
Mikul ... it'd seem that the double projectile concept would not work ... simply due to firstly ... the larger and heavier ''under bullet'' would determine what happened re velocity from powder burn (thus the sabotted .17, for example - would not get much or enough of a kick to get going) ... secondly .. the disparity between ballistics and thus trajectory would rule out any chance of POA coincidence. JMO.

August 30, 2004, 12:23 PM
The KTW round was made using tungsten . . . It was made to pierce soft body armour. No, it wasn't. It was made to pentrate things like car bodies and such. When first introduced circa 1970, soft body armor was very uncommon. (When did Second Chance first start using Kevlar to make vests?)How about Mercury-cored lead/copper jacket hollow points? I remember seeing "Mer-Core" bullets as reloading components at a gun shop outside Chicago around 30 years ago. neither my father nor I wanted anything to do with them, as we both knew mercury was toxic.

My idea . . . how about a hollowpoint with a bunch of tungsten rods inside, held together with a conventional copper jacket. The rods would be sort of like captive "flechettes" and longer on the edges, shorter towards the bullet axis, to form the hollowpoint. You could fill the spaces between the rods with something like potassium metal, and put a Teflon ball up front, to make it sort of like Pow-R-Ball ammo. On impact, the tungsten rods would tumble and scatter, aided by the violent exothermic reaction of the potassium.

On a more down-to-earth level, I'd like to see a commercial HBWC seated backwards, in .38 +P or .357, to give today's little J-frame snubbies more punch. The original Hydra-Shok Scorpion ammo was based on this concept (though they added the famous post) but the loading offered was disappointingly anemic.

August 30, 2004, 12:58 PM
How about self-propelled?

'Course, it's not really new - something like 50 years since the prototype was made.

Caseless ammo is alive and well: VoereVEC91 (

I've gotta have one, for not other reason then that it gives these guys a case of the vapors: VPC ( Too bad it's such an old rant. Maybe they'll update if we do a group buy.

rock jock
August 30, 2004, 01:56 PM
Ice know, like on TV.:D

August 31, 2004, 04:20 AM
I'm in the process of patenting my new TARDISTM rounds-Now you can hit your target BEFORE pulling the trigger!


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