HD Sig P226 vs. Mossberg 500


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Red Tornado
August 28, 2004, 02:47 AM
Let me preface this by saying that where I live, it's extremely unlikely that I will ever need to use any firearm for home defense, so this is mostly theoretical exercise. But, since they told us in personal defense class, to visualize any possible situation for self defense in the home....

My HD gun is a Sig P226 9mm, which stays in my bedside stand, in half loaded condition. It's the only handgun I really shoot (100 rds a month or so), and I'm very comfortable with it. It holds 15 rounds which can be put in an 8 1/2 x 11 area from across the room, very quickly.

However, in many situations I can envision, I see myself having the Mossberg 500 12GA pump which hold 3 rounds (No, I don't want to take the plug out.) I've done dove/rabbit/quail hunting and I'm very comfortable with a shotgun.

If I'm dressed and prepared, I'll have the 12Ga, with the 9mm in my belt. But that's not realistic. (Actually being truly prepared involves having several friends with a variety of weaponry. ;) More realistic is I'm in my underwear in the dark, and have time to grab one......finally my question...which one?!?

The shotgun is good for 3 intruders, maximum, assuming I don't miss. However, the 9mm may take multiple shots per intruder, even assuming that I also don't miss.

I won't be getting any additional guns for some time so please let's not go 9mm v.45. :rolleyes:

Thanks for any thoughts.
RT

P.S. If I see 'em coming the Garand will make it all irrelevant.:evil:

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Majic
August 28, 2004, 12:24 PM
While someone may absorb several hits of the 9mm, one hit with 12 gauge 00 buck will take the fight out of them. Aiming is not as critical with the shotgun as with the pistol to achieve hits. When both weapons run dry the shotgun is a formidable blunt weapon using the buttstock.

If the Mossy serves double duty why not remove the plug and use the full magazine capacity? It's a quick and easy process to remove/install the plug.

One question though, what do you mean your Sig is "in half loaded condition"? :confused:

cratz2
August 28, 2004, 02:40 PM
If I knew I was going to have a single adversary in the room with me, I'd ALWAYS rather have a shotgun than any handgun. A single shot from 000 buckshot is about the same as 9 rounds of 9mm so three rounds of 000 is about comparable to 27 rounds of 9mm. Of course, I'd much rather have 8 rounds of 000.

Plus, if/when you run out of ammo, I'd rahter have a solid shotgun to hit someone with than a handgun.

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 03:10 PM
Aiming is not as critical with the shotgun as with the pistol to achieve hits

It really bugs me when people say this. You MUST aim properly with a shot gun in order to hit your target the same as with a pistol. ESPECIALLY at close ranges such as inside a home there will be little to no spread in the pattern of shot. There has been a misconception for years that with a shotgun all you have to do is point it in the direction of the attacker and you're gauranteed to hit which is dead wrong. Granted it is easier to make accurate shots with a long gun as opposed to a pistol...but that is not limited to a shotgun and with the close ranges inside a house it's not as much of an advantage unless you live in a mansion.

As for the question I would personally go with the Sig over the shotgun as I'm not a fan of shotguns for anything other than shooting trap really. If I have to fire in self defense I want ONE bullet coming out and I want to know I can put that bullet exactly where I want to. This works for me because I'm practiced with my guns and know I can shoot accurately. This is especially important to me in a SD scenario. This is because even though you try to make sure of your backstop and what is around you, there are so many things going on at once that I don't want to have to worry about a stray round of buckshot that hits a family member. Also I'd much rather have 15 shots than 3....or even 8 for that matter. IMHO the more ammo the better cause it can go quickly in a life or death situation.

Gameface
August 28, 2004, 05:07 PM
I have to say that if someone intrudes into your home they will almost never be expecting a gun battle. There is very little incentive to a criminal to engage in a tit for tat exchange of gunfire. I always wonder who people envision coming into their homes and sticking around through repeated hits. I know my opinion might not be very well appreciated on this one, but If three scumbags break into your home and even hear you pump the Mossberg they will quickly realize they are in the wrong house. If they don’t leave right away and you end up plugging scumbag #1 the other two will only fight you if you are blocking the way out.

Just about the only people who will stick around when you start shooting back are the authorities.

Gameface

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 05:13 PM
Gameface,

That is a very true assessment, but do you REALLY want to bet your life on it? After all, the chances that someone with evil intent will break into your house are slim as it is....why have a gun at all if you're just playing the odds?

Red Tornado
August 28, 2004, 06:13 PM
Majic,
Half-loaded is the term I learned for a full magazine, but no round chambered. I just have to rack the slide.

I agree that hearing a shotgun pumped is probably one of the most heart stopping sounds imaginable in a dark house. :eek: Especially if you're an intruder. But, since the MO bootheel is pretty much the methamphetimine capital, I would almost have to assume anyone uninvited would be on something.

Anyone who's stupid enough to put that crap in their body can't be relied on to have sense enough to run when they should.:(

Telperion
August 28, 2004, 06:53 PM
Any reason why you don't keep a round chambered in your pistol? SIGs are very safe handguns; it isn't going to fire unless the trigger is pulled.

sendec
August 28, 2004, 06:57 PM
The handgun for if you have to move, say for an example to get a kid from their room into a safe room. The shotgun for covering the door of your safe room while hunkered down and waiting for the police.

To reinforce, fighting shotguns have to be aimed with a level of precision equal to that of a handgun. New shooters of the defensive shotgun are typically stunned when their close range shots from the hip invariable miss.

Doug S
August 28, 2004, 07:44 PM
A handgun in a quick access safe is quicker, but if you had the opportunity to get to the Mossberg, it would be the better weapon. I have a Persuader 8shot. I wouldn't limit myself to 3 rounds though as I'd use the Mossber for HD & pick up another shotgun for hunting. In fact if I had to choose between 10 rounds from my Glock or 3 in my Mossberg I might just opt for the higher round count. It seems that criminals are getting more serious these days & often bring a friend;) .

prezzz
August 28, 2004, 08:03 PM
Red Tornado,

The purpose of having a DA/SA weapon like the Sig 226 is so you can keep a round in the chamber with a DA first shot. Why do you keep the chamber empty? http://members.cox.net/rtset/Gifs/headscratch.gif Your talking home defense buddy! You may not have time, or a hand to rack a slide. Ever woke up from a sleep and your hand was numb from laying on it? That may cost you your life if you have an empty chamber my friend.

Gameface
August 28, 2004, 09:35 PM
I don't play the odds. I do live my life without fear. There are guns in my house that are ready for action. I wouldn't be the one asking if I should use the Mossberg or the Sig. I would take each situation as it comes. I don't guarantee that I’ll always come out on top. I don’t have a plan for every possibility. The second things actually start to happen there are no hard and fast plans. The more simple you’re “plan” is the more situations it will help you in.

If I hear a bump in the night I don’t even grab a gun right away. I sit still and try to figure out what is going on. If I hear human noise (if that doesn’t make sense then too bad) and it is in an inappropriate place then I’m up, aware and carrying a ready gun in a holster (.357 snub in shoulder rig). If someone needs to be scared off I feel confident that I can do that. If someone needs more encouragement than that then I can give them as many reasons to leave as it takes or make them pay for staying. If my assessment of what’s going on calls for more than that then I’ve got a few more tools at my disposal and I’ll use ‘em all. Why limit yourself?

Gameface

P.S. Having the shotgun is somewhat limiting if the situation doesn't actually call for firepower. A handgun is more descrete and can be used more easily in tight spaces. On the other hand, if you know that something bad is going down, the shotgun (with its full capacity of ammo) will be a little more effective overall...IMHO

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 09:38 PM
I’ve got a few more tools at my disposal and I’ll use ‘em all. Why limit yourself?

My point exactly, so glad you agree.

My motto is plan for the worst but hope for the best.

Mark13
August 28, 2004, 11:12 PM
You are asking what you should use to stop someone who is trying to kill you right? Someone who is coming at you with either a knife or a gun, or some other deadly weapon in your house and hasn't turned and run away even after seeing you armed?

I'd go with a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot everytime. A pistol in any caliber is a pathetic manstopper compared to a 12 gauge. And I would go with the 12 gauge even over my nifty, tricked out Bushmaster.

prezzz
August 28, 2004, 11:19 PM
12 gauge with 00 Buckshot = (9) .32 caliber projectiles per shot.

9mm = (1) .35 caliber projectile per shot.


The answer is too obvious.

Red Tornado
August 28, 2004, 11:22 PM
Great points, everyone, thanks. Doug, the higher round count is kind of my dilemma. If I could get a 10 shot extension for the 12ga, that would end any discussion.:D

As far as not having one chambered...I can get the pistol and chamber a round quicker than I can turn around with it, so it wouldn't really slow down my overall reaction time any. At least in practice, and hopefully I'll never have to find out for real. It just seems to be an additional level of safety, as well as making my wife more comfortable when I tell her it's not "loaded".

Dbl0Kevin
August 28, 2004, 11:36 PM
12 gauge with 00 Buckshot = (9) .32 caliber projectiles per shot.

9mm = (1) .35 caliber projectile per shot.


And just remember that for every projectile you fire you are responsible for where it goes. That's why I choose to fire one at a time.

Lt. G
August 29, 2004, 02:56 AM
Long gun first,(or shot gun), then the pistol. The NCOs always taught us that our rifle/shotgun/long weapon was used to kill the enemy. our sidearm, (a 45 in my day) was used if your weapon jammed ,out of ammo, etc.... Still live by that motto today.

prezzz
August 29, 2004, 08:34 AM
As far as not having one chambered...I can get the pistol and chamber a round quicker than I can turn around with it

Roger that. And I also understand the wife aspects of the "no loaded" thing.

Food for thought:

In the Police Academy, we were taught that you never put yourself in a postition to where you need 2 hands to make the pistol ready to fire. Also, in that condition, you have one less round available in the pistol.
Just something to ponder. :)

Mark13
August 29, 2004, 01:16 PM
I don't think a 10 round tube is necessary for a shotgun. I have a 7 round tube 18" barrel, and keep 5 loaded all the time. At room ranges the spread will be minimal, so I don't worry about stray pellets, if it's clear behind the bad guy. Besides a stray pellet will penetrate far less than a stray pistol round.

Also keep in mind that if you do have to defend yourself in your house you will probably suffer some type of temporary hearing loss. I believe lots of police officers have ended up with permanent, minor to complete hearing loss from shooting in a small closed space.

lbmii
August 29, 2004, 02:09 PM
You MUST aim properly with a shot gun in order to hit your target the same as with a pistol. ESPECIALLY at close ranges such as inside a home there will be little to no spread in the pattern of shot. There has been a misconception for years that with a shotgun all you have to do is point it in the direction of the attacker and you're gauranteed to hit which is dead wrong.

To back up what Dbl0Kevin wrote see the below photo of the pattern 9 Pellet Remington Double Ought Buckshot made at about 6 yards when fired from my Mossberg 590 A1 DA with a 20 inch modified choke. Note that the spread is about 4 inches.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1028398

The next photo below is Federal Premium Double Ought 9 pellets at 6 paces (about 7 yards) 20" barrel modified choke. Note the spread is only about 2 inches.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1023629

See all other patterns here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83909

The Last Confederate
August 29, 2004, 02:10 PM
A shotgun always beats a handgun.

Majic
August 29, 2004, 02:24 PM
Now take that modified choke out and install the cylinder choke and reshoot.
Any way you look at it which one requires the more critical aim?

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 02:38 PM
Any way you look at it which one requires the more critical aim?

Ummm both do. That is if you want to hit something. If you just want to have shots go anywhere then neither. :uhoh:

Majic
August 29, 2004, 03:17 PM
It really bugs me when people say this. You MUST aim properly with a shot gun in order to hit your target the same as with a pistol.
Ok, where in this:
Aiming is not as critical with the shotgun as with the pistol to achieve hits.
was anything said about not aiming a shotgun that bugs you?

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 06:07 PM
was anything said about not aiming a shotgun that bugs you?

I'm not understanding your question. You stated that aiming is not as critical with a shotgun as with a handgun in order to achieve hits. This means to me that you were saying you don't have to aim as much with a shotgun as you do with a handgun to hit your target. I find that notion to be incorrect as was backed up by other people and the pictures that were posted. You must use proper aiming of ANY weapon in order to hit your target. This includes, pistols, rifles, shotguns, mortars, rocket launchers, etc. I don't understand how you can believe that aiming is any less "critical" with a shotgun then with a pistol. In fact aiming is THE MOST important factor when a shootout occurs with ANY weapon. If someone has an M249B Squad Automatic Weapon and they can't hit me with it and I make a nicely placed shot with a single shot .22 I win......doesn't matter who had the bigger or more powerful weapon.

Zeke Menuar
August 29, 2004, 06:46 PM
Aiming is relative with a 12ga cylinder bore shotgun. I use paper plates at about 25 ft for practice. I can empty my Mossberg in a big hurry and get multiple hits. In my case I aim, but I don't have to use pin-point aiming like lining up pistol sights. Just line up the bead on a chest sized target and shoot. Buckshot does the rest.

A handgun is really a low-powered, last resort defensive weapon. In a HD situation, I'll take a shotgun everytime.

ZM

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 06:57 PM
I can empty my Mossberg in a big hurry and get multiple hits. In my case I aim, but I don't have to use pin-point aiming like lining up pistol sights

And that right there is my beef with shotguns. No one should be emptying a shotgun in a big hurry without properly aiming. You are putting a lot of pellets down range and especially without aiming properly you are asking for a lot of trouble if buck shot makes it to somewhere it's not suppposed to go.

Also in a combat situation you don't go through the whole line up the sights as if you are shooting a at a bullseye. Point shooting is the name of the game in a combat situation and can be done very quickly. At 7 yards (21 feet) to 10 yards (30 feet) I can draw and fire a double tap in under 2 seconds and have no problem hitting a man sized target. This is something that takes some practice to learn, but if someone is serious about shooting and self defense then it should be no problem.

I still stand by my statement that I'll take a rifle first and a handgun second in any self defense situation and only a shotgun if it's the only option available.

Majic
August 29, 2004, 07:44 PM
How can you support point shooting with a pistol, but say it's wrong for the shotgun and that's exactly what the shotgun was deigned for?
Just like you practice with the pistol, you can also practice with the shotgun to achieve the results you want. Like most other things in the gun world, it's just a learned motion.

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 08:04 PM
How can you support point shooting with a pistol, but say it's wrong for the shotgun and that's exactly what the shotgun was deigned for?

Very simple, because point shooting is STILL aiming just not using the sights. A lot of people think point shooting requires no skill, especially with a shotgun, and can be done by anyone. This is where I take issue. I practiced for years to get to the level of proficiency I am at now. Those who do not practice regularly will not have the muscle memory required in order to do accurate point shooting. I can point shoot with a pistol at close range just as fast as I can with a rifle or shotgun.

I've already stated the reasons I don't like shotguns so I won't go into it again. My problem was that your statement, while it may not have been intended to, can lead inexperienced shooters to believe that if they have a shotgun they don't need to practice aiming or tune their skills as much as they would with a handgun. I believe that would be a dangerous and unsafe assumption.

Zeke Menuar
August 29, 2004, 08:50 PM
I'll take a rifle first and a handgun second

That's nice. You are entitled to use what you want. I have the option of a rifle if I want. However one stray round through a wall could cause more problems than a BG. Even a handgun can over-penetrate at indoor distances, 25 feet or less. I will not take that risk. I'll take the shotgun.

ZM

Dbl0Kevin
August 29, 2004, 09:23 PM
A low weight, soft point or hollow point .223 will have less overpenetration through walls then a handgun caliber round of greater weight.

RandyB
August 29, 2004, 09:51 PM
Well for my 2 cents worth.

1. I'd take the plug out of the mossberg. It is easy to do and I change all my pump shotguns back and forth with hunting season.

2. Keep both available, but I'd be grabbing my shotgun anyday over any handgun. Its easier to hit with (I still agree with the aiming of a shotgun, even at room distances)

3. I keep my .45 in a clip on holster with 2 spair mags and can attach it to any shorts I'm wearing to bed if need be.

4. My shotgun has an 8 shot tube with a 20 inch barrel (IC shoke and rifle sights for those curious) and the stock has the speedfeed that allows extra ammo. (#1 Buck is in the tube, action open with the 9th round ready just by closing the action. The speedfeed has 4 rounds 000 buck) This gives me 13 rounds on/in the shotgun! Just think if I add one of those slip on elactic things, an extra 4-5 rounds!

Blackhawk 6
August 29, 2004, 10:55 PM
Red Tornado,

I do not think you supplied sufficient information to answer the question. You need to describe the circumstances under which you expect to have to employ the firearm in question.

For example, if your home defense plan calls for you to remain static, barricaded in your bedroom, with your firearm trained on the door, then the shotgun is the best option.

However, if you plan to investigate or retrieve a loved one (children) the handgun may be more preferable. Most people lack the proficiency to properly negotiate the confines of the average house with a long gun. The need to remove a hand from the weapon for other purposes (opening doors, talking on the phone, holding a flashlight) negates many of the advantages offered by a long gun. Weapon retention also becomes more of an issue. Under these circumstances you are probably better srved by a handgun.

In either case, my recommedation would be to go with the handgun. It is the more versatile of the two, and is therefore the better choice for a one-size fits all situation. True the shotgun is a more decisive stopper, but as has been pointed out, few burglars are looking for a gunfight. In the odd circumstance where your nocturnal visitors are indifferent to gunplay, you'll find the Sig offers not only more rounds but faster reloads as well. Also, your ears will thank you when it is all over.

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