Gun shy about carrying concealed


PDA






fistful
August 28, 2004, 04:42 AM
I live in Missouri, which just got a CC law. I don't even have a concealment gun right now, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to start packing anytime soon. When the day comes that I start to carry, however, I think I'll be awfully nervous about having a negligent discharge. With a 1911, cocked and locked, in a holster that covers the manual safety, and with a retaining strap under the hammer, I'll feel ok. But I can't see being comfortable with some minimalist holster. When I used to have a Para 13.45, I had a Bianchi Accumold holster that always managed to disengage the safety. I could see the same thing happening with a belt slide, or Mexican carry. Maybe I'm backwards, but the DA autos and revolvers seem even less safe than the 1911.

Am I being silly?

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loose cannon
August 28, 2004, 05:52 AM
this is just my opinion but to me 1911s arent safe enough. but my best friend loves his amt hardballer. it just depends on you and youre knowledge
and comfort level. i belive da only autos and revolvers are the safest guns going. but thats me.i read somewhere that a journalist saw a texas ranger
carrying a cocked and locked 1911 and asked him,"isnt that dangerous"?
and the ranger said sure its dangerous if it wasnt i wouldnt carry it.btw im a missourian whos been legaly packing a s&w642 for months no probs .im certain that unless i exert 10-12lbs of force on the trigger it wont go bang.
and i wont do that till its aimed and time for me to fire. safe enough for me.
hope this helps

JPM70535
August 28, 2004, 05:59 AM
you have touched on one of the most debated topics among gun toters, the relative safety of a cocked and locked 1911 style pistol versus DAO autos, revolvers, and the Glock style (safe action, so called)

No argument can be made that the 1911 pistol, carried in a duty type holster with full trigger coverage and a retaining strap under the hammer is not completely safe, because it certainly is. Unfortunately we seldom carry concealed in a duty holster here in Florida where T-Shirts and shorts prevail.

In theory, the 1911 is perfectly safe to carry cocked and locked as long as the trigger is not depressed at the same time the grip safety is depressed and the manual frame mounted safety is deactivated. Being a believer in Murphy's Law, (What ever can go wrong Will) I have always been reluctant to carry my 1911s In what you refer to as a minimalist Holster, or as I have done for years with my carry guns, "Mexican Carry" style. At the very minimum I would want a fully covered trigger and a frame safety that takes concerted effort to disengage.

DAO Autos and Revolvers are IMO a safer weapon to carry concealed if certain factors are present. Trigger pull needs to be heavy enough to resist initiating a hammer cycle should the trigger snag clothing when being holstered. My S&W revolvers all have a 10-12 # smooth pull that is resistant to NDs when being holstered or carried "Mexican" My Autos, other than my Springfield are DA/SA types that have a manual safety and are carried hammer down. Since the manual safety deactivates the trigger
the problem of NDs should be non-existant regardless of carry method.

You mention you had a Para 13-45. If it is the LDA model, the fact that carry condition is hammer down,with manual safety deactivating the trigger, as long as the manual safety remains engaged, it can't ND, and is safe to carry sans holster. If your 13-45 is SA , the above does not apply.

I also own a Glock 23 that I would not think of carrying in anything other than a stiff duty type or IWB with the trigger completely covered and an open mouth to ensure a snag free holster/draw/reholster cycle, as the only active safety is the trigger mounted one that on mine, takes 3# to overcome. "Mexican" carry is out of the question for me.

It all depends what you are comfortable with.

fistful
August 28, 2004, 07:13 AM
JPM, thanks for your comments. duty type holster with full trigger coverage and a retaining strap under the hammer Aren't there IWB holsters with these features?

Carrying concealed in hot weather is something I find even harder to understand, but from what I read in mags and on the net, a lot of people do it. I find it hard to wear much more than a T-shirt for about half the year here in humid Saint Louis. Would you mind telling me how you conceal in t-shirts and shorts down there in Florida?

I'm really not trying to spark a SA vs DA vs anything else controversy. I'm more interested in finding out if other packers have had the same problem, and how they deal with it.

Regarding the LDA, however, they are not like other DA's. I had the opportunity to handle one at the NRA convention in 2001, and its trigger was very light and very smooth. Perhaps the display model "just happened" to have an especially nice trigger, but reviews I have read suggest it was normal.

I can't see that a manual safety is much use without a holster that keeps it from being wiped off. As I said, my brand-name holster would actually disengage the safety, so it seems like Mexican carry has the potential to do the same.

Declaration Day
August 28, 2004, 07:17 AM
You can try carrying without a round chambered. I always do this, but I have spent several hours practicing so that my pistol is 'ready for action' in less than a second. As my left hand draws the gun (I am a lefty), my right hand is immediately on the slide chambering a round. I can do this quickly and seamlessly. Note that it is NOT for everyone. If you're going to do this, practice, practice, practice! Good luck.

fistful
August 28, 2004, 07:36 AM
Cannon, I started to get a CC permit down in Texas a while back, and went through a class on the Texas law. Down that-away, if your gun is accidently exposed...ees a big no-no, compadre. Do you know if the MO law is the same; is there a penalty for accidentally revealing of the gun?

ssr
August 28, 2004, 08:16 AM
In a proper holster a 1911 is perfectly safe. I carry 1911 condition 1 IWB. I would not want a retention strap on a concealment holster either. if you need it out fast you want to be able to pull it out fast immediately and shoot. Now, carrying in a poor holster or no holster, that I wouldn't do.

1911 C+L is perfectly safe. You don't want to be nonchalant about your carrying either and forget that it's there and not be aware of where it is and what condition it is in.

Ringer
August 28, 2004, 09:00 AM
I don't own a traditional 1911 style so I won't comment much on that. I will say it's not because I don't think they are safe, I do, they are just not my thing, maybe they will be some day.

Maybe I'm backwards, but the DA autos and revolvers seem even less safe than the 1911. I really just wanted to add a comment or two to this one. My 2 cents anyways. If you do decide to carry, whatever you carry, a qualitly holster that provides retention and coverage of the trigger is a must along with a good belt. Once you strap the gun and holster on there should be no reason to unholster it unless you need to deploy it so chances of an ND because of the trigger snagging are pretty much eliminated. You can also choose to holster your weapon before putting the holster on your belt so it's right in front of you in plain sight. (In my opinion) unhostering your gun throughout the day is a bad habit to get into. Not saying you inted to do that just throwing that out there.

I have only been carrying about a year and had some of the same concerns. I currently carry a revolver with a spurless hammer. I rest my thumb over the hammer as I holster so I would feel it begin to rise if by some odd chance the trigger snagged and was being drawn back. If needed, draw, point and pull the trigger.

And lastly of course you are not being silly. You are concerned about safety. It's a good reminder to take nothing for granted and don't get complacent about carrying a gun.

Oh yeah, as far as the LDA, as you say they are not truly double action. They need to internally cocked so in effect they are not really hammer down. The trigger is sweet, just wish I could get mine to run reliably.

Okiecruffler
August 28, 2004, 10:12 AM
I'm another one of those guys who couldn't be comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, even tho' I grew up with my dad carrying one and he's never had a ND. He's carried like that since he came back from Korea. As you stated, you don't have a CC pistol yet. Spend some time looking at the different actions and find what you are most comfortable with. As for me, I've made the decision to carry nothing but a DAO pistol, but only one without a manual safety, for my safety.

Shootcraps
August 28, 2004, 10:40 AM
Carrying concealed in hot weather is something I find even harder to understand, but from what I read in mags and on the net, a lot of people do it. I find it hard to wear much more than a T-shirt for about half the year here in humid Saint Louis. Would you mind telling me how you conceal in t-shirts and shorts down there in Florida?

It gets pretty hot in Virginia too. ;) The secret to carrying while wearing shorts and t-shirts is a good holster and a good belt. Don't cheap on these and your heater is easier to conceal. Add in a loose fitting t-shirt and your in like Flint.

MrMurphy
August 28, 2004, 10:40 AM
With a proper holster, (I prefer Kydex by Comp-Tac) holster retention means there is no shifting etc to disengage the safety. I've carried a 1911 for some time and shot them for years, with a good IWB holster you're perfectly fine.

I carry in Texas summers (100+ degrees) with a buttoned but untucked square-bottom buttondown shirt, with a pattern. A t-shirt underneath, and the gun disappears (T-shirt optional). I've worn my G30 24 hours straight in this method and nobody had a clue. Since this is how I generally carry everyday, nobody else ever has a clue. The only time I've been "made" was when a girl hugged me and my arm didn't get in place to deflect her hand fast enough, and that was once.

As to DA/SA and revolvers/Glocks, a proper holster covering the trigger is all you need. You can throw one on the ground and unless something squeezes the trigger, it's NOT going to go off.

Vern Humphrey
August 28, 2004, 11:37 AM
Quote:
--------------------------------------
No argument can be made that the 1911 pistol, carried in a duty type holster with full trigger coverage and a retaining strap under the hammer is not completely safe, because it certainly is.
---------------------------------------

Actually, the restraining strap makes the holster LESS safe. In many holster designs, the snap for the restraining strap is located where it may disengage the safety as you move around. The Galco Fletch was notorious for this.

The M1911A1 was made when the Cavalry was a serious arm, and the pistol was designed for one-hand use on horseback.
Now lots of people carry cocked or semi-cocked guns all the time -- the Ruger MKII auto is an example of a pistol that is carried cocked and locked, and no one thinks a thing about it. The Glock is carried semi-cocked (and has a much higher ND rate than the M1911A1.)

In the M1911A1, the cocked-and-locked mode is perfectly safe. Of course the man carrying it must also be safe!
:D

Soap
August 28, 2004, 11:51 AM
You're being silly. Get a good holster that covers the trigger and has a shield that covers the safety (good ones like the Milt Sparks Summer Special also have a small indentation which further helps keep it engaged).

In fact, I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll wager $1000 to anyone who will take me up in the following bet: We take a quality 1911, put it in a cocked and locked condition unloaded, leave it in a gunsafe for 1 year. If the hammer is at full rest at 365 days, I owe you a grand. If it is still cocked and locked, you owe me a grand. Any takers?

gbelleh
August 28, 2004, 11:56 AM
I occasionally carry a 1911 IWB in a rather minimalist holster and have never had the safety move.

In hot weather, I carry a PM9 or snubby .38 in my front pocket in a pocket holster. Not much chance of ND.

Majic
August 28, 2004, 12:01 PM
It's just a personal choice to make based on your comfort level, but even if the safety is swiped off by the holster it still requires the trigger to be pressed for it to fire. The potential problem comes from someone who has their finger on the trigger and they are not ready to fire the pistol. A problem no matter what handgun you use, but more evident with the light triggered pistols.
A good miminalist holster will still completely cover the trigger guard which prevents anything from engaging the trigger.

jpIII
August 28, 2004, 12:16 PM
"Would you mind telling me how you conceal in t-shirts and shorts down there in Florida?"

I think I might be able to weigh in on this question...
I live in SOUTH Louisiana about 30 min from the Gulf. Let me tell you,... hot and humid is an understatement here for 3/4ths of the year!!:what:

I carry 1 or 2 snub noses (rust resistant is a must) either in a pocket holster, or in a belly band worn under the waist line. (just the grip is above my belt line)
The belly band worn under the waist line is very convenient for shorts that have no pockets such as running shorts, etc.

I suggest several carry guns ( If you can manage it) to fit the season. When I first started to carry, the first gun I purchased was my "always" gun. I wanted a gun that could be worn anytime of the year with ease.
After that you can purchase a gun with a bit more "umph" for cooler weather.


I personally don't feel comforatble with a 1911 "cocked and locked" for carry purposes, but know plenty who do. It really is a personal decision.

I feel that as long as you are concerned about a ND then you will be attentive, and I don't think you'll have any problems. You will probably feel awkward at first, like everyone is always looking at your gun.

Eventually you'll get used to it, and it won't bother you anymore.
In fact, you'll soon start to feel awkward without it.

well, good luck with whatever you choose.
and ALWAYS....

M2 Carbine
August 28, 2004, 12:29 PM
fistful,

No you are not being silly. Doing something you aren't sure of is silly.

No offense, but it sounds like you are too inexperienced to carry a 1911.

"I think I'll be awfully nervous about having a negligent discharge."
"Maybe I'm backwards, but the DA autos and revolvers seem even less safe than the 1911"

You should not be carrying a pistol that makes you "nervous".

I would suggest you get something simple like a S & W J frame 38 for carry, not a bad carry gun anyhow.

Then work with the 1911 until you are COMPLETELY comfortable with it

Having respect for your firearms is one thing, but being nervous (scared) around them is something entirely different.

Vern Humphrey
August 28, 2004, 12:50 PM
"Would you mind telling me how you conceal in t-shirts and shorts down there in Florida?"

My IWB design has a high leather backing, which I impregnate with Sno Seal. That keeps leather between gun and skin. It is also a place for the "button" or leather cam that keeps the safety lock engaged.

In fact, with my design, you can take an UNloaded, cocked and UNlocked M1911, shove it in the holster, and when you pull it out, it will be locked. The button cams the safety to the safe position as the gun is holstered.

With this design, I carry under a T-shirt all the time, in Arkansas, Virginia and south Texas.

Andrew Rothman
August 28, 2004, 12:59 PM
You people may not believe it, but Minnesota DOES get hot in the summer (well, not this year, but usually...).

I carry most of the year in a SmartCarry (http://www.smartcarry.com) holster. It covers the trigger guard, and even on roller coasters or rolling around in the grass playing with the kids, the gun ain't goin' anywhere.

I carry a full-size semi-auto and a spare 15-round mag, and I've never been made.

(The inventor, Charlie, carries a genuine WWII 1911 [his dad's Army service pistol] daily, in hot and humid Florida.)

In the winter, I sometimes carry OTB with an inexpensive nylon holster (with retention strap) under an unbuttoned long button-down shirt over a t-shirt.

When carrying OTB, I feel like I am constantly on guard against flashing. In the SmartCarry, I don't even think about it.

Edward429451
August 28, 2004, 01:00 PM
You're not being silly. You're paying attention is all. It is dangerous to carry C&L. Keep that mindset and you wont be one of the ones who shoot themselves in the buttcheek. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn;t be done though, just that you have to have an engaged brain when you do it. A good holster is a must. I've been C&L for 20 years and never had the ND while doing it. I have found the safety disengaged 2, maybe three times in the holster (High activity periods). You learn to be aware of the possibilities. I akin it to a mental reserve of focus. A 1% mental reserve of focus makes all the difference. It's largly unconcious but its still there. Make sense?

It's like driving a car. No one really gives the road 100% attention yet they drive around safely. A car is loads more dangerous than a gun. It's when you lose that last little bit of focus that you crash.

That goes for any gun really. Get a good holster, keep your mindset, and practice. You'll be alright. I see the biggest danger in carrying C&L as an airplane. The greatest danger is upon takeoff & landing, ie, holstering & unholstering. There's ways to check the safety while ccw without telegraphing what you're doing. It's not a novice pistol so be realistic about your focus level that you give it. Then you;ll get used to it and it wont bother you anymore and you'll feel akward without it.

carpettbaggerr
August 28, 2004, 02:02 PM
Maybe I'm backwards, but the DA autos and revolvers seem even less safe than the 1911.Backwards you are. :D They would be safer for someone who's inexperienced. But that's not to say the 1911 is unsafe. If you aren't completely comfortable with a pistol, don't carry it.

chas_martel
August 28, 2004, 02:18 PM
fistful,

There is no penalty in Texas for accidently showing your weapon with a CHL.

Then penalty is for knowingly showing it with no cause.

manwithoutahome
August 28, 2004, 02:40 PM
For all you folks in hot weather, I have one word for you Hawian Shirts :).

In a pair of shorts, good belt, good holster and a Hawian shirt you can carry that huge 1911 all year. I do and I think I look quite good in the shirt :D.

As for carrying C&L, I have two guns that I completely trust in this regard, the Kimber Pro-Carry (with the grip safety) and the HK .45 (full sized and doesn't have a grip safety).

As for the belt, believe it or not people throw away really good stuff for concealed carry people at the Good Will and Vincent St. Paul stores. My belt is heavy duty, would cost around $125 out of any catalog, more in the store, and I picked it up for $2.50! My "concealment vest" was also bought at Good Will and it costs me a whopping $5.00 (leather "biker type" vest). Those Hawian Shirts, .50 apiece and I have around 20 of them now.

Carry what you are comfortable with. If you are worried about C&L then carry with one in the pipe, hammer down if you want to carry a 1911 type. If you are uncomfortable with nothing but a DAO then carry that. No question is silly, any question not asked is silly.

To put everything into perspective, the Jennings and the Bryco's passed Californias drop tests and are (were) legal for sale in that state :scrutiny:

Wayne

pbman
August 28, 2004, 03:13 PM
Just don't carry cocked and locked.

I don't.

Its slower but a lot safer, and thats important to me.

AZgunstudent
August 28, 2004, 03:48 PM
A 1911 carried cocked and locked is perfectly safe so long as the holster properly covers the trigger guard. It's no big deal at all, at least for a trained shooter. Negligent discharges happen when people press the trigger, not because the gun spontaneously fires in the holster. I've carried a cocked and locked Commander in various open-top inside the pants holsters for years with zero problems. Take some good training, observe Rule Three ("Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.") at all times, and you'll be just fine.

And, yes, a full-sized pistol can be carried year-round, even in serious heat. A good belt and a tails-out shirt make it easy. I actually prefer carrying the Commander to anything else, including my little J-frame revolver.

JohnKSa
August 28, 2004, 04:43 PM
Hot weather carry: When an untucked shirt won't attract attention, I carry IWB under the untucked shirt. Otherwise in a belly band below the waist line so I can tuck the shirt in. Slower access, but a heckuvalot quicker than running to the car.Just don't carry cocked and locked.I believe the general consensus is that a 1911 is safer when cocked and locked than with a round chambered and the hammer down (even disregarding the safety issues involved in getting it to that condition.) We take a quality 1911, put it in a cocked and locked condition unloaded, leave it in a gunsafe for 1 year.I think most folks would agree that carrying a gun is not exactly like leaving it in a gunsafe for a year. I know I've definitely heard about safeties getting accidentally wiped off while carrying a 1911 C&L.

tech
August 28, 2004, 08:05 PM
"Eventually you'll get used to it, and it won't bother you anymore.
In fact, you'll soon start to feel awkward without it."

So True.

"For all you folks in hot weather, I have one word for you Hawian Shirts."

I took this advice this summer. My wife makes fun of my new style but I can conceal a full size 1911 if I just remember not to bend over.

Mike

Standing Wolf
August 28, 2004, 08:47 PM
Am I being silly?

Yep. I believe there's no such thing as too safe with firearms, but fear hinders rather than helps.

The model of 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

I think you need to put in a lot of range time, get your permit, and start carrying. I'm not sure practice makes perfect, but am sure it can carry you past the fear.

malada
August 28, 2004, 10:07 PM
Fistfull - I 'm from Missouri and have been carrying concealed since the law passed. I went through all the thought processes that you have mentioned. I ended up purchasing a Glock 26. I love it. My prefered method of carry is IWB. I have a sidearmor IWB holster that works great with a cover garment. I feel confident knowing as long as the trigger is inside that holster there is no way the gun is going to discharge.

I also have an alessi ankle holster that conceals quite well when IWB is not practical. Ankle carry is not my preferred method for several reasons but it is better than not having my gun.

Be safe.

MrMurphy
August 28, 2004, 10:23 PM
If Hawaiian isn't your style, Burlington Coat Factory has good patterned shirts of non-floral-camoflauge type, square bottomed and proper thickness, for about $20. So does Old Navy.

Dave R
August 28, 2004, 10:43 PM
Anybody have stats on NDs for 1911's vs. other handgun types?

I hear more stories about Glock NDs than I do about 1911 NDs. that could just be Glock-bashing, though.

OTOH, with a Glock (or a DA revolver, even.) Only one thing has to happen for the handgun to fire--the trigger has to be pulled.

For a cocked & locked 1911 to fire, 3 things have to happen. Safety has to be moved, grip safety has to be activated, and trigger has to be pulled.

That seems 3 times safer to me...

Soap
August 28, 2004, 11:06 PM
I think most folks would agree that carrying a gun is not exactly like leaving it in a gunsafe for a year. I know I've definitely heard about safeties getting accidentally wiped off while carrying a 1911 C&L.

That's fine, I'm willing to up my wager to $2K and I'll carry my 1911 for a year. When the gun "goes off", I'll pay you $2K. If it doesn't, you pay me $2K.

Vern Humphrey
August 29, 2004, 12:04 AM
Those who say carrying cocked-and-locked is dangerous should explain to us how the Glock -- which is carried semi-cocked and sort-of-locked is somehow acceptable.

fistful
August 29, 2004, 02:01 AM
Just to clarify, I'm not in doubt about the safety of the C&L 1911. I said in my original post that I feel SAFEST with the 1911. I'm not asking the same old question about action type, I'm asking about the danger of ND, and what modes of carry (type, placement of holster) can reduce it, and make me feel better.

M2 Carbine, no offense taken. The first handgun I can recall firing was the Para 13.45 I bought in 99 or 2000. This did nothing for my marksmanship, but one reason I bought the gun was that the single-action seems simpler and more intuitive to me. Obviously, I picked the wrong gun to start with, but I have learned my lesson. I have no familiarity with or interest in DA autos, and I don't see how they are any safer than the 1911. I have sold the Para, and am keeping a S&W Model 19 at home. I don't like the thought of carrying that either, safety-wise. Were money no object, I'd buy a Commander-sized 1911 and a Ruger 22/45 Mk III, and put in a lot of range time with both. And I'd take a few courses. In any case, the gun doesn't make me nervous, it's just that I'm not used to carrying a sidearm 24/7, and I don't know anyone that does. Like I said, it'll be some time before I start carrying. No money to buy a concealment gun right now.

Actually, the restraining strap makes the holster LESS safe. In many holster designs, the snap for the restraining strap is located where it may disengage the safety Humphreys, that's just what I was talking about with my accu-mold. Just fastening the thumbreak pushed the safety off. With no strap, I'd expect the gun to fall out, but I guess I'll have to get over that, too. BTW, what type of holster were you talking about in your second post. Do you make holsters?

I'm glad I started this thread. The thought process it engendered actually helped a lot. It also brought up an interesting thought I hadn't had before. When I was a straight-leg mech. infantryman (1st Cav.) we rarely had live rounds, or even blanks, when in the field. We paid almost no attention to the four rules, until we got live ammo. Had our weapons been loaded with blanks when in the field, would our safeties have been on, and our muzzles been pointed in a safe direction?

Vern Humphrey
August 29, 2004, 03:45 PM
Quote:
-------------------------------------
Humphreys, that's just what I was talking about with my accu-mold. Just fastening the thumbreak pushed the safety off. With no strap, I'd expect the gun to fall out, but I guess I'll have to get over that, too. BTW, what type of holster were you talking about in your second post. Do you make holsters?
-------------------------------------

I make my own holsters, not commercially. Go to http://paul.desertskyone.com/gunstuff.html and scroll down about 2/3s of the page to find the link to instructions and templates for making my holster.

dairycreek
August 29, 2004, 04:56 PM
I was once leery of carrying a 1911 in Condition 1 (cocked and locked). Even though all the "experts" said it was OK, the sight of that hammer poised to fall just filled me with trepidation. But I really wanted to and so I tried an experiment which I pass on to you for your consideration.

I bought a good IWB holster and carried the 1911 in it in cocked and locked but with no round in the chamber ! So, even if things slipped up, nothing bad could happen.

I wore that combination everywhere! I walked, ran, danced, jumped, exercised, sat, stood, layed down and just waited for the safety to slip and the hammer to fall. It never did. Eventually, I got the confidence to try it with a round in the chamber. Same result! That was a lot of years ago and now I carry "cocked and locked" with confidence.

So FWIW I pass my experience on to you. Good shooting;)

JerryM
August 29, 2004, 05:49 PM
Get a good holster, and you should not have a problem with the safety becoming disengaged. I have carried a 1911 cocked and locked for many years, and have never had the safety to disengage.

If it makes you feel better get a holster with a "shirtguard" and when you holster it make sure that the safety is on.

Remember that the grip safety is another safety, and even if the safety slipped to off the gun would not discharge until the grip safety was pressed and the trigger pulled.

I would not carry a 1911 if I could not carry it cocked and locked.
Remember any gun will AD if you do something wrong or are careless. Always remember to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction when holstering and using it, except in true SD and then it should be unsafe for the BG.

BUT, if you are not comfortable carrying the 1911 in a condition that will permit quick action, then go to another gun in which you have confidence. I am persuaded that only cocked and locked is fast enough for emergency use.

Whatever you choose to carry, get some good safety instruction and instruction in the safe handling and use of that gun. You should not have to worry about your carry gun. Let the thug worry about it.
Also, know the laws of the state, and especially those pertaining to use of deadly force.

Best,

Jerry

sendec
August 29, 2004, 06:45 PM
and you should be gun-shy, carrying is an enormous responsibilty.

As for the safety of the 1911, the only safety that matters is in your mind. I carry one C&L on a regular basis without problems. There may have been occassions when the sfaety was wiped off, but I do not recall any in particular. Even if it is disengaged, the grip safety would prevent firing (assuming the pistol is within spec) within the holster, and keeping your finger off the trigger will take care of everything else.

Cacique500
August 29, 2004, 08:18 PM
I was once leery of carrying a 1911 in Condition 1 (cocked and locked). Even though all the "experts" said it was OK, the sight of that hammer poised to fall just filled me with trepidation. But I really wanted to and so I tried an experiment which I pass on to you for your consideration.

I did the same thing with my first 1911...

Now I carry a full size Kimber CDP cocked and locked every day. It has an ambi safety on it, and I've never had the safety 'snick' off on its own. I carry it in a Milt Sparks HR-LTD with a Sparks belt. Fantastic carry rig!

I check occasionally to make sure the safety is still on (just a habit I somehow formed) and it's always in the up position where I left it.

Carrying a Glock or any other DA would give me the willies...as others have stated, on a 1911 you have to overcome 3 things for the gun to fire. In my mind, it's the safest thing to carry.

Good luck with your decision and keep us posted.

38SnubFan
August 30, 2004, 02:06 PM
Thanks to everyone for posting about the TRUE safety of carrying a 1911 in Condition One. I will admit that it LOOKS dangerous, but as the Border Patrol officer stated in the article about a C&L 1911 (it was actually in Concealed Carry Magazine), "I wouldn't carry the son of a b**** if it wasn't dangerous!"

I'm no where near ready to buy a 1911 for financial reasons (a new car and a couple personal loans need paid off first), but it will probably be my next handgun purchase (currently I only carry a snub-nose .38). I work with two guys who own 1911s and another who carries a Browning Hi-Power, which are always carried Condition One. Same deal everyone else stated: three things need to happen for the weapon to discharge - most importantly the trigger being pulled completely to the rear.

Most importantly to ANYONE looking to carry ANY gun: Common sense is the best safety, for the true safety of the gun lies within the person carrying/using it.

-38SnubFan

jetman
August 30, 2004, 09:48 PM
I've previously carried a couple of different compact 1911 styles cocked and locked without incident... but it did freak a couple of friends out seeing I carried that way. I recently converted my main carry pistol to a DAO Kahr PM9. It is much easier to hide on my slim frame. In the cooler weather I'm sure I'll be able to carry my Wilson SDS when it's easier to hide. I'm kinda spoiled recently by the SMALL size and weight of the Kahr though. Too bad they don't make a PM45!!!

Diggler
August 31, 2004, 08:01 AM
Just because you don't SEE the hammer on other guns doesn't mean they're not cocked and locked. It's like having the header extending through the hood of your car, is all.

And cocked and locked is MUCH safer than one in the pipe, hammer down. First, when you start messing with the hammer, safety off, with your thumb, your chances of an AD goes up tremendously. Also, there is a greater chance IF you drop your weapon that striking the hammer may set off the primer. Isn't going to happen if it's cocked and locked, due to the design of the hammer.

I carry C&L all the time in a Milt Sparks VMII. No retaining strap. It locks right in, and I doubt my sidearm would fall out if I was held by my ankles and shaken.

Majic
August 31, 2004, 12:22 PM
First, when you start messing with the hammer, safety off, with your thumb, your chances of an AD goes up tremendously.
Only if you have your finger depressing the trigger and the grip saftey pressed in.
Also, there is a greater chance IF you drop your weapon that striking the hammer may set off the primer.
That has never been a problem as the pistol has an inertia firing pin. It would require the pistol to fall on the muzzle not the hammer for it to fire if it doesn't have a firing pin block.

Vern Humphrey
August 31, 2004, 12:40 PM
Quote-within-a-quote:
*****************************
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, when you start messing with the hammer, safety off, with your thumb, your chances of an AD goes up tremendously.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only if you have your finger depressing the trigger and the grip saftey pressed in.
*********************************

How do you lower the hammer on a cocked M1911 WITHOUT depressing te trigger and the grip safety pressed in?

In order to carry Condition 2 (Hammer down on a live round) you HAVE to depress the trigger and press the grip safety in -- no other way.

Diggler
August 31, 2004, 01:13 PM
Yep, and I haven't found a really comfortable way to do those three things at once on a 1911 with a loaded chamber.

Since I've bought it, my 1911 has been my primary carry and home defense sidearm. It has spent at LEAST 95% of its life with me cocked and locked.

Valkman
August 31, 2004, 03:09 PM
It's pretty hot here in Vegas, and I carry cocked and locked everyday in casinos and everywhere else. I wear 5.11 shorts with a Brommeland belt, mag/flash pouch and holster, then a tank top tucked in and a light-weight unbuttoned Hawaiian-type shirt over it.

C&L is perfectly safe. If you're uncomfortable with it and want to carry a 1911, then carry one around the house unloaded for as long as it takes to see that nothing will happen. In a year of C&L carry with a gun with an ambi-safety it has never been wiped off. If it were to be wiped off it would still require the grip safety to be held down and the trigger to be pulled - pretty safe, I'd say!

What is unsafe is to carry your gun in a condition that requires two hands to get it into action (chamber empty), or where you have to manipulate the hammer to fire. You will lose motor skills in a life and death situation and you don't want to be fumbling for the hammer trying to cock it.

bamawrx
August 31, 2004, 03:10 PM
fistful,

Best thing to do is go take a class from a reputable instructor. You can make the other decisions later.

Kenneth Lew
August 31, 2004, 05:23 PM
If you are concerned about NDs with the 1911, get a Series 80 Colt or a Series 2 Kimber.

saltydog452
August 31, 2004, 07:00 PM
I am more confident with a properly assembled 1911 'cocked and locked' than with a 'cocked and un-locked' Glock.

salty.

Vern Humphrey
August 31, 2004, 07:22 PM
Quote:
----------------------------------
If you are concerned about NDs with the 1911, get a Series 80 Colt or a Series 2 Kimber.
------------------------------------

Both of those are firing pin-blocking systems. They work if you drop the gun from a height, and it lands on the muzzle, but how often does that happen?

fistful
August 31, 2004, 07:40 PM
All suggestions have been duly considered. Thank you.

If anybody cares, I will chart my probable course. I don't plan to carry my S & W Mod. 19, but I may start keeping it under the seat of the truck. At the moment, I am looking for work, and when I do find a job, most of my money will be swallowed up by my wedding and honeymoon, next year, and by trading in my pick-up on a 4-doored, 6-cylinder GM somethin' or other. Mayhap, when I get a carry permit, I will trade in the Smith for a smaller revolver, or perhaps a used 1911. I won't be able to go to Gunsite, but I will at least spend some time at the range, and take some kind of a course in tactical people-shooting. Eventually I'll move up to a Para-Ordnance LTC with steel frame. It's the right size, it's not prohibitively expensive, and it's purty - or at least it's not as flashy as some sidearms. I will procure appropriate magazines, and be prepared to send it to a gunsmith for any reliability work it might need. I'll get a secure IWB holster, and begin to pack.

And then there's this other problem. My fiance is generally gun-friendly, and I'm proud to say I taught her to shoot my 10/22, and the ram sillhouettes (sp?) at the local range are very frightened of her. However, when I asked her how she felt about my packin a gun, she said it seemed paranoid. Now she's a reasonable girl, so does anybody have any suggestions as to how to inform her of the benefits of carryin' a peice?

Majic
August 31, 2004, 08:13 PM
How do you lower the hammer on a cocked M1911 WITHOUT depressing te trigger and the grip safety pressed in?
You do have to depress the trigger and grip saftey to lower the hammer, but the statement was messing with the hammer. Nothing was said about it being lowered. It may very well have meant that or it could have been just that messing or playing around with the cocked hammer.

Diggler
August 31, 2004, 08:52 PM
Eh, I meant messing with the hammer as in attempting to lower it; i.e. not leaving it where God intended.

fistful
September 1, 2004, 12:25 AM
I meant messing with the hammer as in attempting to lower it; i.e. not leaving it where God intended. God? You mean J. Moses Browning?

Fistful moves quickly away to avoid the lightening. See sigline.

S_O_Laban
September 1, 2004, 02:11 AM
Fistful wrote;Do you know if the MO law is the same; is there a penalty for accidentally revealing of the gun?


In a nutshell... it depends on where your at. IOW certain local municipalities have ordinances banning open carry. Open carry is legal in MO but some cities have bans on open carry. There is also some case law here in MO that helps define just what concealed or open carry is but I can't seem to find the right link. Anyway, I seem to recall that accidental flashing of the weapon was not considered open carry, but keep in mind that the local leo can arrest you for anything they want (right or wrong) so having a good attny on retainer is excellent advice if your expecting trouble.

The following link is about the best summary of the new Mo CCW law.

http://www.kljamisonlaw.com/updates.asp

fistful
September 2, 2004, 12:29 AM
Thanks, Laban.

sm
September 2, 2004, 01:02 AM
Good Thread.

Fears are healthy - to a point.

Proper Training , instruction and practice is the best method IMO. When I assisted with new shooters and those with same concerns for CCW- We had a variety of platforms . Students learned about them, shot them and determined the best platform and caliber for THEM. It is hot and humid here...we had a variety of holsters and let students try for THEM.

Ladies - Best to be supportive and not pushy. " Attraction not Promotion" if you will.

I always highly recommend husbands, daddy's and BF's - let someone else teach the lady - really great if another lady. Especially if the lady has any reservations about shooting in the first place - much less CCW. This alleviates any pressure by known males. Females can communicate any special questions that need be. They will not ask or if they do be very hesitant to do so with a male.

I actually prefer to teach ladies, no preconcieved ideas like men seem to born with. [ John Wayne gene]. I was respectful , honest and always asked permission before I put hands on a lady. Even if all was going to do was hold the gun and let them pull trigger to show sight picture and slow steady trigger pull, or maybe suggest a hand / wrist/ arm/ foot position. I was accepted as being "safe" and yes I was asked some pretty personal or questions that the ladies thought "silly". Nope - all questions are valid - we are adults.

The other rule - the lady chooses her gun. She trys before she buys. She goes with the other ladies. The Male....supports, makes sure she has ammo, eyes and ears....and if you vacuum or somesuch while she is gone - she will appreciate it.

1911 style.

I carried these as a kid C&L , that is how the platform was designed to be carried. I was taught this from the get - go. I shot my first 1911 at age 6 .

Yeah I know better, I still tuck a C&L 1911 in my waistband and head to mailbox or around the corner for smokes... then again as a kid I did the same thing - well not the smokes....C&L locked to mailbox, or around the corner for milk and bread is the same deal though. A skinny kid with shorts , Tshirt can conceal a full size 1911 ...

mainmech48
September 2, 2004, 02:42 AM
I routinely carry my Springfield Champion in Condition 1. While I usually do so in either a Sparks VM II or a Summer Special, I also have a couple of 'paddle' rigs that work equally well. None have a restaining strap, and I've never had my weapon bail on me even when engaged in unusually strenuous physical activities.

If you want the virtues of a 1911 but are uncomfortable with the thought of carrying 'cocked and locked', I would add my ditto to the suggestion that you take a hard look at the Para LDA models. The DAO system they have is unique. It is quite smooth and breaks at about five lbs. It reminds one of an extremely well-tuned PPC revolver, IMO.

I've had a C7.45 LDA for about a year and a half and carry it quite often, especially in hot weather. It's about the size of an 'Officer's Model and conceals very discretely under light clothing.

Unless you're just dead-set on Gunsite (with all of the travel and lodging expenses on top of the $1100 tuition, plus ammo) there is a very good alternative quite close to you.

IIRC, St. Ann is a suburb of St. Louis. About two hours drive from you at Hallville ( seven miles north of Columbia) is the Chapman Academy. They offer three and five-day classes, sophisticated range facilities, and first-rate instruction for very reasonable and affordable prices. I took their five-day Intro class a couple of years ago and recommend it highly.

One caution: bring LOTS of ammo. You'll be shooting about 300 rds per day, on average. FWIW, I ended up going through almost 2300 when you count the extra practice I did on movers and falling plates after class.

45King
September 2, 2004, 09:17 AM
In 10 years of nearly daily carry of a c'n'l GM, I've only twice had the safety wipe off unintentionally. This didn't bother me because I observe the 4 rules, and Rule 3 (finger off trigger until ready to shoot) came in handy here.

In short, the safety of ANYTHING lies between the ears of the operator, period. Follow the 4 rules, it won't matter what gun/holster combo you wear.

Model520Fan
September 2, 2004, 09:40 AM
When I used to have a Para 13.45, I had a Bianchi Accumold holster that always managed to disengage the safety. I could see the same thing happening with a belt slide, or Mexican carry. Maybe I'm backwards, but the DA autos and revolvers seem even less safe than the 1911.

Am I being silly?


No. You are noting facts, and being thoughtful about them. I would like to point out that even with the manual safety off, the Para-Ord and Series 80 Colts are quite safe. The trigger MUST be pulled in order to make those guns discharge, and that is not likely to happen without depressing the grip safety. However, I would not carry even a Series 80 or Para-Ord in a holster that had that characteristic when worn on my body.

The modern DA autos and revolvers are as safe as or safer than the Series 80, and much safer than a 1911, IF the holster covers the trigger guard AND you push the hammer down with your thumb when you holster the gun so that you can be sure the holster isn't cocking and firing the gun.

I'm sure you will think through all of the answers, just as you thought through the initial disturbing set of facts, and come to a conclusion which both maintains safety and allows you to carry.

John Ross
September 2, 2004, 05:23 PM
"And then there's this other problem. My fiancee is generally gun-friendly, and I'm proud to say I taught her to shoot my 10/22, and the ram silhouettes at the local range are very frightened of her.

"However, when I asked her how she felt about my packing a gun, she said it seemed paranoid. Now she's a reasonable girl, so does anybody have any suggestions as to how to inform her of the benefits of carryin' a piece?"

This comes up in all of my classes. Here is how I present it:

Tell her to think of it like driving. I have over 600,000 miles in 31 years of driving, and I have never been hurt or experienced an accident where the seat belt made a difference (been sideswiped once and hit in the rear at stoplights four times.)

Do I still wear one? Yes, always. Why? It could save my life, and (this is the key) it costs almost nothing in nuisance value to do it.

Think of all the unlikely things that have a very small chance of hurting you or a loved one, and think of how long you intend to be on this earth. Fifty more years is a very long time to bet that NOTHING will ever happen that will require a gun.

A good example is when you read of a person, often a child, crippled or killed by a vicious dog that was loose. Isn't such a thing possible any time you're outside? If you were present, wouldn't you give almost any amount of money to be able to stop the dog from biting the child's face and not letting go?

Richard Davis of Second Chance Body Armor interviews cops his vests have saved. He always asks them "Was there anything about the day you got shot that made you think that day was any more dangerous than any other? Were you on a raid, or something like that?" The answer is always "No."

Ask your fiancee if she carries spare tampons in her purse, even on days that it is statistically nearly impossible for her period to start. She is sure to say "yes," because it is more sensible to always have them there rather than shuffle them back and forth between the purse and the bathroom shelf and possibly forget to have them handy when they are unexpectedly needed. And remind her that this is all to avoid a minor embarrassment, not an issue of physical harm.

For this reason, I advocate finding a gun and carry method that does not inconvenience you at all. I carry a S&W 340 in a pocket holster at all times. It is no more nuisance than a second wallet. In cooler weather I carry a 329 in an IWB holster but the 340 is on me at all times. a 2" .357 is maybe only 70% as good as a major caliber but it is LIGHT-YEARS better than no gun at all.

Find a gun and carry method that is so easy that your fiancee doesn't even notice.

JR

Black Snowman
September 2, 2004, 06:05 PM
Understanding the mechanical function of the weapons in detail will help make you comfortable with condition 1 carry as well. After being enlightened by 'Tuner I have no trepedations about my Delta Elite being cocked and locked. Or my various CZs for that matter. That's one of the features I look for in a firearm now is the ability to be carried C&L.

fistful
September 4, 2004, 02:21 AM
I don't know what I'm gonna do. Do I have to put my posts in 50-point flashing neon font in order to be understood? I NEVER SAID COCKED AND LOCKED WAS A PROBLEM. IN FACT I'VE SAID MORE THAN ONCE IN THIS THREAD THAT I FEEL C&L IS SAFER...S-A-F-E-R THAN REVO'S AND DA'S.
:banghead:

I should take into account that some posters are just defending the old slabsides against other posters, rather than responding to me, the originator of the thread, but - hey, I'll just throw something else out there, and see how people misunderstand that. (Reading comprehension, people, please!) Maybe it's the snobbery that comes from reading too many gun mags, and therefore thinking I've got the inside track from the cognoscenti, but when someone thinks I'm scared of cocked and locked, it seems like they're calling me a rank novice. (OK, I'm a novice, but I'm not rank.) It also feels like they're calling me a coward, or, worse, a Glockhead. (Just kidding, Glockies, safety your weapons, oh wait!) That's why I get so frustrated, but it also bugs me that this thread has turned into another 1911 vs. DA vs. Revolver thread, AAAAAARGH!
I'm not asking the same old question about action type, I'm asking about the danger of ND, and what modes of carry (type, placement of holster) can reduce it, and make me feel better.
Mr. Mainmech,

I know you don't have time to read every post, but I have stated above that I am aware of the LDA, and have experienced the trigger. Yes, it is sweet. And, I have taken a course on the grounds of the Chapman Academy...the NRA Basic Pistol Course. ;) So, yes, I have considered it for further education.

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