[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

I am constantly seeing posts about men wanting the newer hotter ammunition for their .38's that were not designed for a steady diet of them. Some older pistols could get sloppy or go out of time in their regular use.

As a teen with my first .38 a Smith M&P model I happened to pick up a dud at the range that had a lead bullet pushed far down in it and an indented primer. Later I decided to practice fast draw in my bedroom and filling the revolver with empty cases and the dud. After a few minutes of drawing and pulling the trigger the dud fired with the bullet going through the antique dresser mirror, through the wall, across the bathroom and through the glass door medicine cabinet my mother had been combing her hair in front of a few minutes before. It lodged in the second wall after going through a bottle of milk of magnesia. Two mirrors and a bottle worth of bad luck when my mom came home.

When I learned of hollow base wad cutter bullets I loaded my wife's pillow gun with them and they became my first two rounds at bedtime. Why?

In FBI regular reports of officer involved shootings and with my personal experience it became a concern to me in homes where weapons were fired that standard .38 loads have gone through walls to kill someone in the next room or apartment next door or above or below. Or when an officer dropped his pants in his bathroom and his gun dropped also and killed a kid next door. So I felt way back in the 60's that a bullet should be effective in a bedroom and expand and slow down when going through layers of a burglar, furniture or drywall.

As the reloader for my department I had a box of .38 special target loads with backwards hollow base wadcutters for officers to take home for their wives pillow guns when their hubbies were on duty.

I could also fire the rounds with normal accuracy and still have a mess of them available for myself and family members now that I am long retired.

I am now concerned about how far the new hotter loads in regular and magnum pistols could go in a home and through windows in an apartment or neighborhood.

It seems that practice and accurate placement of .38 rounds can do the job.

Fitz

[Jim K]

You are correct in that with accurate bullet placement, the old .38 Special should be OK for just about any home situation. There is a tendency for folks to want the most powerful gun, the biggest SUV, the fanciest home, the greenest lawn, etc. Human nature.

Over penetration is a concern many people don't share, feeling that in an emergency, they won't care where the bullet goes, and that has to be true to a point. But most handgun bullets, just about all rifle bullets, and even shotgun loads will pentrate the typical interior home wall of two pieces of 3/8 or 1/2 drywall, and still have enough force to kill on the other side. Anyone facing a deadly threat in the home should certainly do everything possible to avoid missing the intruder, and avoid using a gun or ammunition that will shoot through a half-dozen bodies. If the situation makes it possible, the homeowner should definitely "know where your children are" before opening fire.

I once knew a nut case who lived in a suburban apartment with walls so thin he could hear his next door neighbor brushing his teeth. He was a fan of Mel Tappan and his idea of a home defense weapon was an HK 91 in 7.62 NATO with two dozen magazines loaded with armor piercing bullets. Had he cut loose, he could easily have killed a half dozen people, plus adding to the gun ban furor. Fortunately, he never had a "situation", but he was a big danger looking for a place to happen.

Jim

[orangeninja]

I live in a town home...I share a wall with a neighbor. I also have a wife I love...a dog I love...and another dog I wouldn't INTENTIONALLY shoot. That being said, I carry .40's all day, every day and don't even own another caliber weapon. 9mm, .45, .357 SIG and .40 will ALL over penetrate. Heck a .380 can get through a wall with little difficulty, and as we just about all agree, a handgun is a "last resort" weapon because it actually has little effect compared to a rifle or a shottie. So, I keep a 12ga. with #4 Buck in it. It WILL go through a wall, but not likely with lethal force. EXTREMELY dangerous to bad guys though. Seems like the most profitable trade off. Given the choice, I will take a shottie to a gun fight over ANY handgun.

[RWK]

Standard pressure .38 Special loads have a proven record of disabling/killing people. There’s no question about it, fired with accuracy the .38 Special is a perfectly satisfactory defensive load. HOWEVER, self-defense situation demand close-to-instantaneous incapacitation. Many people feel – and for good reason – that more potent rounds have a higher probably of accomplishing this objective. I would not hesitate to use top-rated .38 Special JHPs (or the venerable FBI round – 158 grain LSWCHP), although I prefer P+ loads. But, right now I have a Smith 610-3, loaded with 10mm Winchester Silvertips in my nightstand.

[P95Carry]

Paul .... I also am of opinion that .38's will ''cut it''... certainly in an indoor situation even they will present potential over penetration hazards with stud walls.

I could carry full house .357's in my SP-101 but within practice sessions have found that recovery is too slow .. and so I elect to have five rounds of quick delivery softer fodder available instead - these days CorBons. If that and one speedload don't get me outa trouble then I'd be screwed anyways I think!:)

[sm]

Mr. Jones,

Good post. I have a soft spot for the .38spl . I bought Six model 10's all at one time once - to keep in various places in a business setting. The loading, the Standard Pressure 158 gr LSWC HP.

I have assisted with CCW, of all ages and both genders. Used Police trade-ins , in .38spl , were bought by many students. Older S&Ws , a lot of quality for the money spent.

Some of the folks , not always the elderly, had problems with hand strength or recoil. Might be the arthritis was acting up ,or a 23 y/o with injuries to wrist and forearm. The .38spl platform - the revolver , is user friendly for weak hand, Or "the hand not acting up". Target Wadcutters, with less recoil was the load.

The folks believed in practice , in shot placement, and in reliable platform...I may or may not have had an influence in decison making. :)

Pesonally - I am in an apt. Top floor. I have "zones of fire" laid out. I am most likely to have to be concerned with entering or leaving- or answering the door.

Yep , one gun, "handy" is in fact Revo, with .38spl standard pressure 158 gr LSWC. 1928 Detective Spl .
There "might" be some other guns about , like a CCW on my hip as well...

Best to you Mr. Jones.

[Old Fuff]

I know of a case where a reserve police officer attended a party after going off duty. Someone there egged him on into showing off his fast draw. He thought that he’d unloaded his revolver (S&W model 10/.38 Special/4 inch barrel) that was loaded with standard 158 grain LRN ammunition. Unfortunately he missed one round, and during his “demonstration” it fired. The bullet went through one side of the wall, through a pocket (sliding) door pulled back into the wall, and then through the other side of the wall to hit a lady in front of the refrigerator getting ice cubes. It penetrated her side and stopped up against her spine. She was lucky and survived, but went through several operations thereafter.

Paul is dead-on right! His .38 “reversed” wadcutters were ideal for the purpose, and “recoil controllable” in the hands of an inexpert person besides. The ability to use down-loaded ammunition as well as the hottest Magnums without sacrificing any reliability is one advantage a revolver has over a pistol, and it can be an important one.

[P95Carry]

He thought that he?d unloaded his revolver .............. Unfortunately he missed one round, Another salutary lesson Fuff ...... the ''assumption syndrome'' ..... exemplifying the necessity for always checking ... and checking again ...... ad nauseam almost.

If everyone followed the rules ... this could never happen.

[grendelbane]

The .38 wadcutter has a lot going for it. Extremely accurate, mild due to its low pressure, and effective on target.

I have a mold for .44 wadcutters, and I sometimes wish I had one for .45, .41, and .40 also. (For my 610).

Simple in construction, requiring no exotic materials, and not requiring some exotic imported powder, the wadcutter truly deserves more consideration. This is the case no matter which way it is loaded.

[Old Fuff]

P95Carry:

You are right of course. In this particular instance it is believed that the cartridge next to the frame was blocked by the grip, and rather then eject it dropped back into the chamber. Also, drinking may have been a factor. I offered the story to illustrate that the suposedly wimppy .38 Special regular loading may not be as much so as some think.

[Jim March]

Weshoot2 or some other small ammo house could make a lot of money selling backwards 148 hollow-base wadcutters loaded to about 800fps from a snubby.

I'd buy some in a heartbeat.

[TonyB]

Who am I to disagree with P95,Mr.March and Mr. Keenan...so I won't....I love the 38 family.....if you learn to shoot these guys accurately,it's all you need...maybe not all you want....but definatly all you'll need....unless of course you're attacked by mutant aliens..then you need on eof those huge S/W 500magnum deals:uhoh:

[thatguy]

I am not unfomfortable with the .38 Special and frequently carry a S&W snub loaded with hot JHPs (125 at 1,150 FPS). My nightstand gun is another S&W (a 4 inch K frame) loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs because I am well aware of how easily modern homes are penetrated by bullets. The Glasers cause terrible wounds at close range but usually won't have much left after passing through one layer of sheet rock. I accidentally tripped a .22 Long Rifle handgun once in the house and the 40 grain solid from a 4 inch barrel went through two walls and the ceiling before it disappeared into the attic (upward angle, obviously). May have gone through the roof, too, for all I know.

[nero45acp]

Which (if any) current ammunition manufacturer currently offers the standard pressure .38 special 158 gr. LSWCHP?

Also, any opinions on Sellier & Bellot's 158 gr. Soft Point (not RN) standard pressure .38 special cartridge as a self defense round? (889 fps/muzzle & 278 ft. lbs. energy/muzzle) Thanks.



nero

[Jim March]

Which (if any) current ammunition manufacturer currently offers the standard pressure .38 special 158 gr. LSWCHP?

Nobody, unless you have a small ammo house like Weshoot2's operation brew you some custom.

(Which isn't as impractical as it sounds.)

Such a load should expand well from a 6" tube, might from a 4", a 2" is way doubtful.

The S&B 158 you mention won't pull anywhere near that from a 2" barrel. I believe it's jacketed? If so, the standard-pressure 158 semi-wadcutters from Georgia Arms and others will probably go a little bit faster (lead is slicker than copper) and will be cheaper as well. Damage will be in the same ballpark.

[nero45acp]

Thank you, Jim. (you're right about the barrel also, 7 1/2"!!)

Yes, the S&B is partially(?) jacketed.


www.sb-usa.com/handgun_pages/handgun_sba03803_spec.htm


nero

[saltydog452]

You might want to check the
federal Ny-Clad line. Soft bullets, mild pressure..Works well in a Colt Agent or Cobra.

salty.

[Vern Humphrey]

I took a .357 with reversed hollowbased wadcutter handloads to Viet Nam my first tour -- and that works (served two customers, neither asked for him money back), but have never used that combination in .38 Special.

For defense use, I prefer to use standard double-base wadcutters loaded to +P in my .38 Specials -- a big, flat nose is a proven design and you can't get any bigger and flatter than a full wadcutter.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------
So, I keep a 12ga. with #4 Buck in it. It WILL go through a wall, but not likely with lethal force.
---------------------------------------------

I recommend making a "wall" with scrap 2X4s and drywall, and shooting it at the longest range you might find inside your house (like the length of the hall.) Number 6 shot will make a huge hole -- almost like a slug, and will go on to penetrate a wall on the other side.

In crowded living, I prefer Number 6s for that reason -- deadly at short range, less deadly after passing through a wall or two.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

As my city Scoutmaster and area Scout Merit badge counsellor and Hunter safety instructor. My scouts helped me teach the required city Hunter Safety course and at the end of the course with the scouts picking up all the brass on the range we used for my collection, I then taught them their shooting merit badge and I used an automatic 12 gauge shotgun with an ounce of #9 shot and the kids were so fast on the clay birds with the dense pattern of the shot it was no problem at all in passing them.

I convinced some of the kids parents who had shotguns that the #9 shot would make a good home defense load even for their kid to handle and just the sound of a slide action shotgun being actuated in a dark bedroom would be enough for a burglar to take off running away from there.

I had officer friends that had a slide action shotgun hanging over their beds.

The #9 shot would be deadly in a home and would carry the least distance of any lead shot.
Behind the #9 shot was buckshot to finish the burglar off.

[Cosmoline]

I'm more concerned about hitting the intended target to begin with that what the bullet that hits does out the back side. Any bullet that misses has done worse than overpenetrate. Yet I've lost count of the number of reports of folks emptying high caps with "safety" ammo only to have most of the rounds clean miss and go lord knows where. It's far better to hit the target once or twice with a hunting round from a rifle than to fire fifteen rounds from a pistol and have four hit.

[MrMurphy]

Federal discontinued the Nyclads.

[Dienekes]

So--is this promoting the low-speed, high-drag approach?

I tend to agree with Mr. Jones et al. Once upon a time I used to sneer at the .38 Spl., but a lot of righteous work has been done with them and current loads are far better than they once were.

The #9 shot makes sense. Most walls have about as much resistance as a pair of curtains.

[Gordon]

Hmmmmm, with every thing made (almost) available to me ; why do I routinely have at hand at work my Colt Official Police 5" and my Colt Agent on me? Stroked with .38 Remington LHP + power they seem more than enough to fight my way to an 870 !:D ;) :cool:

[goalie]

Well, I'll apologize in advance, as a little scotch has hit the back of my throat tonight (a few friends toasting a fellow fallen jar-head's memor) but people who talk about "underpowered" handgun rounds usually have a pretty warped view of handguns in the first place.

WAKE UP PEOPLE, NO HANDGUN IS A RIFLE!!!!

The practical difference between getting shot with a .38 and getting shot with any other handgun caliber really isn't that great. Eitherr it will hit vitals or it won't. Either you are close to a trauma center or you are not.

NOTHING SHORT OF HITTING THE CNS WILL REALLY STOP ANY DETERMINED ATTACKER, and the size of the bullet that hits the CNS has not real effect on the outcome. Just ask anyone who saw a cape buffalo filleted after taking 2-5 heart/lung shots run a half mile.

So here is my opinion, the .38 wll do just fine at hitting a person's vital internal organs, including the spine and brain. If you can shoot it well, use it with no second thought.



(Yes, I have seen a lot of GSW victims in the marines and, more recently, as an ER nure at a trauma center in Minneapolis. It's the freaking Indian people, not the arrow)

**rant off, back to the scotch**

[Jim March]

I haven't seen any accuracy tests with the new 135 Gold Dot "snubbie special" load BUT Gold Dots in general tend to be accurate as the jacket is a "plating process" and tends to be very uniform promoting flight stability.

In my personal experience, the Winchester 158+P lead hollowpoints have been very accurate in my snub and shoot right to point of aim, so I don't see how one could do much better in the accuracy department.

Lead round nose tends to put the least amount of bullet bearing surface against the rifling for the bullet weight and is hence the least theoretically accurate round of any bullet type (although some aren't half bad). That's why the IPSC guys shooting 45ACP tend to use semi-wadcutter ("Keith-like shape") instead of FMJ ball. So in addition to poor wounding, you're not even getting top accuracy in exchange :scrutiny:.

Full wadcutters have wounding power roughly halfway between a decent JHP and ball, and are very accurate. Problem: too many are loaded way light ("target plinking power") and won't hit 750fps from a 2". Some are below 700 :rolleyes:. Village Metalworks has a 148 full wadcutter shape at a decent speed (close to 775 - 800 even without +P pressure), they're the only ones I know of.

A backwards lead 148 hollow-base wadcutter moving at 800fps or close to it would be an excellent load. Scoring same would be a good reason to get a basic press.

[Cosmoline]

NOTHING SHORT OF HITTING THE CNS WILL REALLY STOP ANY DETERMINED ATTACKER, and the size of the bullet that hits the CNS has not real effect on the outcome.

As the young ones say, "word."

To get a handgun that can actually start ripping off limbs and tearing bones out, you've got to move up to the hot .44 Mag or .454 Casull range. The 9x19's, .38 Specials, .45 ACPs, .32 ACPs and all the usual suspects are all essentially pea shooters that have to hit dead on the heart or CNS to drop an attacker every time.

[22luvr]

using pre-fragmented or frangible ammo for home defense use? If you're concerned about over-penetration, magsafe ammo might be just the ticket. For distances not more than arm's length to 20 feet, .38 spcl pre-fragmented or frangible ammo packs a wallop. Just a thought.

[Blueduck]

Considering how modern homes are built I'm just wondering how much anything except maybe pre-fragmented shells would really reduce risk unless a stud was hit:confused:

[fecmech]

"Lead round nose tends to put the least amount of bullet bearing surface against the rifling for the bullet weight and is hence the least theoretically accurate round of any bullet type (although some aren't half bad)."

Jim--I would respectfully take issue with your statement, particularly in the .38. We had this discussion on the Cast Boolit board some time back and the general consensus was the rn was very accurate. The wadcutter was developed primarily to aid in scoring and lighten recoil for timed and rapid fire. I don't want to get into the terminal effects hassel but in the accuracy dept the 158 H&G rn is the most accurate bullet out of my K-38(2"@50yds), Ruger gp-100 (2.5"@50yds) and "Flatlatch" S&W36 1.5-2"@25yds. Many others on that board said much the same thing about the Lyman 158 rn. Nick

[Jim March]

Huh. Interesting.

Most of the round nose 38s I've encountered have been 130s. They never seemed very accurate, even by "plinking round standards". Could be a difference in bearing surface between 130s and 158s?

And we know what happens when the same concepts are applied to the 45ACP. The race-gun boys tune their stuff for semi-wads for a reason; if ball was accurate they'd use it for it's feed reliability but they don't - to get an accuracy boost.

[Erich]

My limited experience with 158-gr LRNs (maybe 1k rounds over 20 years) has been that they can be very accurate. Maybe not as inherently accurate as 148-gr LHBWCs, but as good as 158-gr LSWCHPs, easy. I agree that FMJ 130-grainers don't seem to do it - pity that's what Win USA loads for cheap. (At least they don't lead the bore! :) )

[Cosmoline]

I think most of the classic duty revolvers were designed to shoot the 158 RN bullets. My current Police Pos. Special and the vintage OP I owned both shot *very* well with 158 grain RN lead bullets. Accuracy fell off pretty quickly as bullets got smaller and bearing surface decreased. I had similar results with a S&W M-39 snub nose.

[355sigfan]

Full wadcutters have wounding power roughly halfway between a decent JHP and ball, and are very accurate.
END QUOTE

Are you talking about the permanite cavity based on penetration and expansion? From whoat I have seen good JHP's are far better.

The 38 special when fried from a 3 or 4 inch barrel is adiquate for defense. I personally prefer to have at least at 9mm with +p+ ammuntion in full sized weapons. But to each his own.
Pat

[Jim March]

There's a whole combination of things going on when you compare full wads versus a working (read: expanding) JHP.

First, I lean towards the school of thought that says the temporary stretch cavity isn't that important to wounding (at normal handgun ammo velocities - get past 2,000fps and it's *different*). SOME tissue excepted (liver, kidneys and brain). But when we're talking blood loss effects, it appears that all but the tiniest blood vessels are "stretchy" enough to survive even a close near-miss *most* of the time when the total energy levels are at the 9mm level or below.

That being the case, at least when we're running marginal power levels such as 38+P or 44Spl from a short barrel, a flat-faced full wadcutter will punch deeper than an expanding round, at the expense of expansion. And as an additional benefit, the wadcutter will behave that way even if it hits bone or heavy clothes or some other material that can cause a JHP to fail in a fashion that turns it into "round ball equivelent"...at which point the full wadcutter is now a BETTER wounder.

But, and it's a BIG but, most full wadcutter ammo is loaded too light to make any sort of valid comparison OR trust them for defense. I'd love to see some independent velocity data for the Village Metalworks full-wad-with-a-slot design...if it's a 148 going past 800fps, it should be respectable even if that slot does nothing (and if one petal does break off and it tumbles, now we're in a whole different ballpark - I wouldn't want to be hit by any such thing!).

The other problem: wadcutters don't feed well out of speedloaders if you're in a hurry.

In 38Spl+P, the 158 lead hollowpoints at the 825 - 875fps range from a tight 2" gun (Winchester, Remington) seem to be the best compromise. When they don't actually expand, the edge of the hollowpoint cavity does seem to "spread a bit" to about caliber bore, which means it's now just about identical to a full wad in wounding power yet has good energy behind it compared to a "target wadcutter" (148 @ 700, 750 if you're lucky).

[dogngun]

Use the Lead SemiWadcutter Hollow Point and you will be fine. Easy to shoot well.

Mark

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
--------------------------------
. . . when we're running marginal power levels such as 38+P or 44Spl from a short barrel, a flat-faced full wadcutter will punch deeper than an expanding round, at the expense of expansion.
--------------------------------

There's a corrolary to that -- a round that expands does so at the expense of penetration.

Given the marginal power levels we're dealing with, I question the value of the tradeoff -- do we WANT to reduce the penetration of this marginally powerful ammo? Can we get enough expansion to make a difference, and still get adequate penetration? Can we get it in all cases -- for example, when we hit large bones?

What experimentation I've done leads me to favor a +P load with a 148 grain wadcutter, cast of wheelweights, from a snubbie.

Now, from the 6" barrel of my Colt Model 357, it's a whole 'nother ball game.