Brass cases .410 handloads ?


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goon
August 29, 2004, 03:59 PM
Does anyone know of any brass cases that would be suitable for making brass cased .410 ammo? Will a .44 mag, .444 marlin, .45 LC or 45-70 fit in the chamber? I am not asking about shooting one of those loads in the .410. I know that shotguns aren't designed to handle that kind of pressure and that they all use bullets that are too large for the .410 bore. I know beyond any doubt that a stunt like that would promptly land my butt in the nearest emergency room.
All I am asking is if anyone knows anything about making brass cased .410 shotshells. Thanks.

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fecmech
August 29, 2004, 06:20 PM
Don't know what would work but I would use .410 shot shell outside dimensions and then look at cartridge dimensions and see what is close. The .410 only operates at 10 to 12k psi so I think any rimmed brass case of the proper size to be supported by the chamber walls would work at .410 pressures. Nick

BEARMAN
August 29, 2004, 06:54 PM
This has been discussed on other reloading sites and there is quite a lot already written on the subject. Do a ( www.google.ca ) and/or ( www.dogpile.com ) search for ( reloading .410 brass shotshells )( brass .410 shotshells) or/and (.410 brass shotshell reloading ) Different search engines , different question ,same words, yields some different sites.

Clark
August 30, 2004, 12:09 AM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I found a Stevens break action .410 at a gunshow for $50 and recognized it as being designed much the same as my Handi Rifle 45/70 that I did a stress analysis on, and tested to verify that it is much stronger than the brass.
So I bought the gun for some fun tests.
1) I cut a 7.62x54 case down in diameter on the lathe and shot a .452" FMJ 230 gr Montana Gold bullet in a 2.110" case, CCI200 primer, 45.5 gr H110, 2.900" OAL.
Recoil was horrendous. The primer slightly cratered. The case was not
sticky. The .385" choke spit the muzzle back .25" to the front sight hole and the barrel now slugs to .395".
2) 405 gr 2.1", 40 gr H110, CCI200 large rifle primer, Win45Colt brass, compressed, top hat and catered primer, .004~.005" case head expansion, case head to body cracking.
This is a double charge of the 454 Casull max load, and a little longer in OAL.

I shot lots of other loads too, leading up to those.
Before I reached the above loads, I realized I could not take the recoil. The super loads were with my left palm on the butt and absorbing the recoil over several feet, not an inch, like my shoulder would.
I also drilled and tapped the shotgun, and put a Weaver rail on it [I made from a Tapco AR15 riser], but I have not scoped it yet.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1211717

goon
August 30, 2004, 01:24 PM
Clark - have you tried any other cases? I am not really looking to try anything eccentric, all I really want is a brass cased shotshell. I tried a .44 Mag case in my .410 and it fit the chamber OK. I am planning to maybe try .444 and .45-70. I tried a fired .45LC but it would only chamber for about the first half of the casing. It must have been swelled out from firing. Perhaps it would work if resized but I don't have the capability to do that right now.
Has anyone tried any of these? I just need to know what will fit in the chamber. Other than that, I am pretty much gonna stick to standard shotshell loads, just in brass cases. I do want to try some buck and ball loads, probably buffered with #4 or #6 shot.

Jim Watson
August 30, 2004, 05:58 PM
.444 Marlin is the right diameter. You might have to thin or narrow the rims to get them to chamber, though.

There is a Cowboy supplier making brass shotshells, don't know if he does .410 and I cannot now find his site. I'll check some more later.

Y'all be careful, now, you hear?

goon
August 30, 2004, 06:56 PM
Jim - thanks. I was looking around in town today and both gunstores are out of .444 Brass. I was gonna get some to see if I would chamber in my gun. For me, $10 was worth it to see if it would work. I did try an old 44 Mag case yesterday and it worked just fine. Since the .444 is essentially just a stretched 44 Mag case, it should work too. I am thinking that it may be worth getting the stuff to see if it would work. The idea of an unlimited supply of ammo for my .410 seems really cool to me, as do the specialized loads I could make for it.

Also, these guys have .410 brass. It is a little pricy but would likely last a long time so it may be worth it. I just wanted to see how the .444 route goes first.

http://www.ows-ammunition.com/

243_shooter
August 30, 2004, 10:26 PM
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com

They've got brass 410 shotshells, and they accept 209 primers (seems most brass shells I came across required berdan primers)..

A bit pricey, but I would imagine that the would last a LONG time.. I was on the verge of ordering up some to try, along with their neat little loading kit, but I've stumbled into a 270 WSM project that's eating up my time (and money, LOL).

Leo

cpileri
August 30, 2004, 11:03 PM
The 303 British is the correct size, you just need to fireform it to blow out the case neck with a small charge of powder and cream of wheat over it.

or some other dry breakfast food. Its online somewhere, I'll look and reply back if no one beats me to it.
C-

cpileri
August 30, 2004, 11:09 PM
There ya go;

http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/reloading303.html

C-

cpileri
August 30, 2004, 11:12 PM
More:
http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html
C-

goon
August 30, 2004, 11:53 PM
I tried a .303 case in my .410 but the rim is too thick. Wouldn't close. I am wondering though if anyone else has tried what I am thinking. I was kind of hoping that I could get some firsthand knowledge before I shell out the money to try it, but I guess I'm just gonna have to bite the bullet, so to speak, and pioneer my technique. I am planning to get the stuff and try .44 mag and .444 and I will let you guys know how it works out after I try it.
Thanks for the links guys. I am sure that the two on the actual reloading will give me some guidance on actually coming up with ideas for loads. I am thinking some #4 buck buffered with #4 shot and capped off with a .40 round ball. What do you guys think?

243 shooter - check Old west Scrounger first. Their brass doesn't cost as much. I haven't tried their stuff yet, but why pay more $ for less shells?

Anyhow, keep 'em coming. I am planning to try to get the stuff soon to try my ideas out and after I do I will be open to suggestions on what to try so long as it doesn't look like it will blow me up.

grendelbane
August 30, 2004, 11:54 PM
Drawn brass rifle cases would probably be stronger than the lathe turned cases mentioned. Though the lathe turned cases should be thoroughly adequate for shotgun pressures.

There are also some steel case .410's manufactured in Russia. I believe some of these have been imported. I have no idea what kind of primer that they use.

I have given some slight thought to experimenting in this area, especially as I recently purchased a Contender .410 barrel. I am more interested in getting the bullet closer to the rifling than in loading higher pressure for increased velocity.

Too many other irons in the fire now.:D

goon
August 31, 2004, 12:31 AM
http://www.handloads.org/forum/showthread.asp?topic=2&thread=1783

There is a little more heresay on the subject. It is looking more and more like a half decent option. I know that the pressure on the shell of a .410 won't be anywhere near what a .44 mag or .444 would be able to take. The only real concern is stuck casings, and I doubt that will happen with shotgun pressures.
Still in the planning stages, probably gonna hit ebay and see if I can find the stuff cheap before I pay retail for it but I do want to try it.
I'll keep you guys posted.

444
August 31, 2004, 02:32 PM
I have no idea why I am interested in this, but keep us updated.

I have an Enfiled rifle converted to .410.
I have only fired it a few times and decided it wasn't practical. The problem is the pattern. At 10 feet the pattern is like six FEET wide. There just arn't enough pellets to make a pattern that big worthwhile.
I bought a supply of slugs to try in it. Afterall, it has rifle sights. But, I haven't got around to it it (it has only been two or three years). I guess the reason I never got around to it is because I don't know what I would do with it, if it proved to be accurate.
After buying this Enfield, the idea of using brass cases flashed through my mind, but obviously it didn't go any further than that. But, since it was originally designed to fire .303 ammo, one would tend to think this would be the way to go if trying to develop a brass cased load for it.

woody1
August 31, 2004, 10:34 PM
I have used 444 cases in 2 .410 shotguns. They worked fine except that one has an eroded chamber and the case swells toward the mouth and is a dickens to eject. If it wasn't for that, I'd be using mostly brass cases in that one too. I tried the 303 British blown out and found it was more work than it was worth. There is the possibility that the rim is too thick, or too small a diameter in individual guns, however 444's work fine in mine. If you'd like a couple 444's before you spring for a batch, e-mail me. Regards, Woody

goon
September 1, 2004, 12:12 AM
Actually Woody, you read my mind. I was talking to my Dad and we had decided that I should offer to buy one case from someone or ask for one before I tried it. That was my next post.
Anyyhow, I am interested in your offer. How much do you want for a couple cases? I would email you but it is turned off in your profile.
My email is h_rougeux@yahoo.com.
I am really interested in this one. It would breathe alot of life into my little H&R 410. I can't really afford to shoot it much as it is, but maybe... :D :D
Thanks.

BTW - Welcome. Just noticed that this is your first post. Must be a really cool guy to offer to help with your first post. :cool:

woody1
September 1, 2004, 12:57 PM
goon, Send me your name and snail mail addy and I'll get them in the mail. No charge. Actually, they'll be loaded .410's. After I made the offer, I looked and have no new or once fired empty's. The ones I'll send are new, but loaded with a mild .410 load. btw, I don't have a 444, just .410's. I size the cases, usually after loading, in .308 dies. You can also mildly round the case mouth with .308 dies if desired.

I'll check my profile. I thought you could send me an e-mail, just not see the address. Whatever you did came thru my e-mail. Regards, Woody

goon
September 1, 2004, 01:26 PM
Woody - I sent you a private message with my info. I'd like to send you something, maybe a package or padded envelope, with a postage label enclosed in it so this little circus act doesn't cost you anything.
It is also cool that you are making this work with 308 dies. I have a set already. What are you using as a seating die? Can you explain your procedure for loading them to me. Any help I can get would be appreciated. I have never loaded shotshells before, only handgun and rifle rounds.
Thanks.

woody1
September 3, 2004, 01:27 AM
I sent the following e-mail to goon:
The 444's are a little sloppy until fired, but not as much as 44 mags. The 444 actually has a larger base than the 44 magnum. The rim size is essentially the same as is the case mouth, but the .444 base is a little larger. I fool around so much with things like this just seeing "what will work" but as I recall, the only sizing I've had to do with the 444's was to run 'em into a .308 die until they were a fall in fit back in the .410. I usually do this after I've loaded them and it just squeezes everything back to size. Yes, they do swell when fired. If you've got a gun with nice smooth chamber walls, you may not have to resize. Just try 'em back in the gun. I don't use store bought wads or shotcups. I just cut wads and overshot cards using a homemade cutter. Wads cut from styrofoam meat packages make dandy fillers when placed over a lubed card overpowder wad. I'm not going to tell you what powder or charge to use.well, I will with a disclaimer, but go to any powder mfg. site and get loads for .410, 2 1/2" half ounce load. Most if not all will be with plastic cases and plastic shotcups. IMO, these will be mild loads in the 444 case using card, felt, styro wads which are less efficient. I use regular Winchester large rifle primers, altho I think the two I sent you have large pistol primers in them. Regards, Woody

Now in regards to process and equipment required:
Loading .444's for the .410

Assuming we’re using fired dases, check to see if they’ll fit in the shotgun. If not they’ll need resizing at some point.

De-prime any way you can, even to using a homemade punch from a 16d nail.
Re-prime using an appropriately sized shell holder (RCBS #4 & 7 and Lyman 14B's will work) and large rifle (or pistol) primers. (I dislike using a hammer and punch the Lee way)

Add appropriate powder charge for ½ oz. .410 load. Top powder charge with overpowder wad seated firmly against the powder with a 3/8" dowel. I cut my own wads from cardboard boxes ranging from primer boxes to cereal boxes using a homemade cutter. I then add one or two more cardboard wads lubed with bullet lube and top with a styrofoam filler wad cut from a meat packing tray. Again, seat wads firmly. Note, no seating die used. With a little finger finesse, the wads can be inserted individually and run down inside the case with the dowel.

Add shot and top with an overshot wad, again, homemade from card stock. The overshot wad can be sealed with most anything from Elmer’s glue to waterglass (the old way). In addition, if desired, a slight bevel can be added to everything by running the loaded shell into a .308 size die until it contacts the shoulder. This also resizes the case sufficiently that it always fits in my .410's.
Regards, Woody

goon
September 5, 2004, 10:00 PM
I got Woody's .444 shells yesterday but I haven't had a chance to try them yet. They do chamber just fine in my .410 but they won't chamber in my brother's. I am thinking that if this works out for me I might take an empty to the gunstore with me and try it in all the .410's until I find another one that it will fit, then buy that one. :D
Anyhow, I will keep you guys posted on how it works out. I should be able to try them out tomorrow.:cool:

goon
October 28, 2004, 10:15 PM
Incidentally, Woody's .444 shotshells worked great in my H&R. Chambered just right and ejected just fine too. I don't have the $ to start making my own right now, but some .444 shells and some shot are on my wish list for Santa claus.

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