Shall Issue Effort in NJ

On-line petitions mean nothing to anybody anywhere.

Unfortunately, that's very true. Smity, how about working up a list of politicians who we can contact directly, in order to voice our support for CCW reform? That would be much more effective than some random petition.

Yes. Shall-issue doesn't do nearly as much good when you aren't even allowed to possess hp ammo.

Whatever the case may be it's a good start. If the online petition is this good maybe the moderator of the petitioning site would be willing to accept petitions in letter form?

Any effort in NJ has to be incremental.

First, people have to be made aware that guns are legal, we have a right to own them under the second amendment, and someone other than cops, gangsters and hunters have a use for them.

Next has to be shall issue. Everyone should have the ability to obtain one.

Then, has to come CCW. People have to be able to use their firearms for self defense.

Then, after that, things like our HP laws, Assault Weapons Ban, etc. will seem silly and be taken down.

ANyone looking at an all or nothing type of approach is simply not realistic. NJ isn't gonna turn into PA with the passage of a single bill.

Demitrios - Why bother, when we can just send the letters directly to the politicians involved? Middlemen aren't necessary in order to get our opinions to the people who make the laws.

You see Kingpin, that's wrong attitude to have in this case. What we should be saying is something along the lines of, "OK, what's the best chance this has for working and what can I/we do to contribute to making it a reality?" I'm not one to talk, since I'm sitting here preaching behind a keyboard, but if we want to make this happen we have to back this idea and start putting together more ideas and activities and back them. Organize and get things moving.

So you're telling me that the best way to go about getting our voices heard isn't to do directly to the lawmakers involved? In what world does that make sense?


How is depending on a middleman to deliver our messages for us "the best chance we have"? I can spend ten minutes filling out some silly online petition that nobody who matters cares about, or I can call my elected officials right now and talk to someone in their office, who will record my opinion and deliver it directly to the lawmaker involved.

Call me crazy, but I'll be choosing option #2.


As for the second part of your reply, regarding backing this idea and getting it moving - show me one instance where any of these online petition sites has ever influenced a politician to change their mind on an issue like this.

In the meantime, do a search here for threads describing how members got organized and took the initiative to email, snail mail, and call their elected officials, and actually got something done. I bet you'll find more than a few examples.

Bottom line is this - I'm 100% in support of getting behind an idea to further our cause and making it happen - IF that idea has the potential to get something done. Online petition sites don't get things done. Calls and letters do.

The most important thing in NJ would be getting people to simply know that it is legal to own a gun, they have a right to, and someone other than cops, thugs, and hunters have a use for guns.

There are no public outdoor ranges in the entire state.

The only place to target shoot a rifle in NJ are two expensive clubs.

There are no gun shops in the Newark, Trenton, or Turnpike Corridor areas where almost the entire population lives.

All we have are cop-shops like Bullet Hole, Caso's Gun a Rama, etc. The only REAL gun shops I can think of are Ramsey Outdoors, NJ Firearms Guild, and Shore Shot.

These two things need to be remedied immediately, not things like the AWB or CCW.

Yes. Shall-issue doesn't do nearly as much good when you aren't even allowed to possess hp ammo.

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N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

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Yes, but from what I have seen/heard (and we know what that's worth) using JHP for self defense is a grey area.

THE DARK KNIGHT said:

There are no public outdoor ranges in the entire state.

The only place to target shoot a rifle in NJ are two expensive clubs.

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This is not true. You can shoot outdoors, for free, at any of a number of WMA ranges. If you want to shoot centerfire or handgun, you can join Ft. Dix Range 14 for $60 a year. I wonder if Corzine was aware of this.

I agree the selection of true gun shops is pathetic. If you want to buy something that's not a generic standby (Rem 870, Ruger 10/22, etc.), you have to either go way out of your way to handle one or take a risk and special order one through an FFL sight unseen.

This is not true. You can shoot outdoors, for free, at any of a number of WMA ranges. If you want to shoot centerfire or handgun, you can join Ft. Dix Range 14 for $60 a year. I wonder if Corzine was aware of this.

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WMA's don't count. I don't care if you can shoot your shotgun, black powder muzzleloader or bow somewhere. I'm talking about real ranges where I can take my scary black rifle and target shoot at something 100 yards away. Fort Dix sounds nice though, will have to check that one out. But by "join" does that mean go to stupid meetings or something like the other two clubs?

So I'll correct my statement:

There are no public full service outdoor ranges in the entire state.

There are other real gun shops as well. Personally I don't care for Ramsey Outdoor Store, but that's just me. I do like Meltzer's, if for no other reason the guys I've spoken to do seem to have a handle on what they're talking about.

Kingpin, you need to cool your jets bro, I wasn't attacking you or your comment. What I was saying, is pretty much what you reiterated, make a good idea, organize and back it.

There are no public outdoor ranges in the entire state.

The only place to target shoot a rifle in NJ are two expensive clubs.

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This is just plain not true. I recently moved from NJ. I routinely shot at the Delran outdoor range with riflesd & pistols. It is a public range. Pay your $15 for the day & fire away.

Any effort in NJ has to be incremental.

First, people have to be made aware that guns are legal, we have a right to own them under the second amendment, and someone other than cops, gangsters and hunters have a use for them.

Next has to be shall issue. Everyone should have the ability to obtain one.

Then, has to come CCW. People have to be able to use their firearms for self defense.

Then, after that, things like our HP laws, Assault Weapons Ban, etc. will seem silly and be taken down.

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Actually shall issue is for the concealed carry permit, not the purchase of a gun. As long as you pass through all the hoops, your local police chief has to issue a permit to purchase. So the petition in question was for a carry permit. BTW, signing the petition sends an electronic email to your state representatives, and I have received replies back from three.

HP ammo is perfectly legal at home and on the range, you just can't carry it, but since this is the PRNJ, you can't carry any type of ammunition...yet.

For ranges we belong to both Cherry Ridge and Shongum Sportsmen. If you do any kind of regular shooting, range membership is the way to go. We went to the Pocono Pistol Club yesterday, (had a couple of free passes), nice facility, good folks running it, but lane rentals are $18 per hour. My yearly membership at Shongum is about 10 hours worth of hourly lane rental, and believe me, we shoot a lot more than 10 hours a year Cherry Ridge has 100, 200, and 300 yard ranges, and outdoor pistol, while Shongum has a 100 yard rifle range, indoor and outdoor pistol ranges, and trap ranges. (Any competitions at Shongum IPSC, Cowboy Action, and Trap are open to the public for a very small fee.)

As far as shops go, Ramsey Outdoor in Roxbury, and Meltzers in Garfield have both been recipients of frequent "donations " from us.

We are still looking to move to a more rural, gun-friendly, and conservative area, but in the meantime we do what we can. We'll have to see if Mr. Christie will be able to change some things around this place.

I agree with THE DARK KNIGHT about incrementally winning rights back in NJ. After moving to NJ (out of NJ and back home now) I realized what a different view of firearms most people had. My wife's professor at Princeton insinuated that it was legal to buy an RPG at a gun store because of what the NRA had done in the state. There is a big hill to climb and it starts with the people. Whatever actions you are willing to take be it signing "silly" online petitions, contacting representatives directly, or whatever is a step in the right direction, and may influence others to do the same.

BTW I also second FT. DIX as a decent rifle/HG range, no silly meeting etc.

I used to work at Harrys Army and Navy in Robbinsville. Pretty good selection, and fair prices. I have heard quite a few changes have taken place since I left 3.5 yrs ago, not sure about it now, but check it out.

As far as HP ammo I have intimate experience dealing with those laws. To save you all a story I have shared on THR many times heres the moral: Unless you are willing to spend lots of money on attorneys to prove you did nothing wrong, stay away. The police will arrest you even if you were legally in possession. My last box of Winchester XTP's I bought in NJ cost me $5000+ and 3 months of anguish.

More info on Delran, Shongum and Cherry Ridge please. Do you have to go to meetings?

I looked up Shongum. All I see is a place with a 150+ person waiting list and a membership process that requires multiple meetings. You also have to attend an orientation and be shown where the first aid kit is, etc. I'm talking about a PUBLIC range where ANYONE can just go, pay a fee, and shoot, bring a friend, whatever. Not exclusive clubs. Looks to me like Cherry Ridge is another exclusive club. And you have to really clean up all brass before leaving? What happens when you bring an AK, you really gotta walk 20 feet in every direction picking up brass?

At Cherry Ridge, the only meeting you must attend is when you turn in your membership application. They give a brief safety speech and explain the range rules. At $135 (IIRC) per year, it's not too bad. My only complaint is that I can only bring 1 guest at a time and the guest fee of $20.00 is high IMHO.

As far as picking up your brass, it's the polite thing to do. I don't particularly like cleaning up after others, so I always try to police my own brass. It was difficult in the snow the other day, however.

Yeah, 1 guest at a time is just ridiculous. Sorry brother, wish we could bring you today but I'm already taking dad. yeah no thanks.

As a long term observer of the dark & fascist polity of NJ, I have to say that the most realistic hopes for near term RKBA reforms come from outside.

To whit, the best bet is skillfully filed lawsuits following a usable 14A incorporation ruling from SCOTUS.

As far as reform-from-within, my observation is that the people's "abiding belief" in the value of an armed citizenry is in tatters, and that the sentiment of most of the people follows the "liberal" dogma in the matter.

Until that happens, you won't be able to finesse the political mechanisms against the overwhelming tide of people who are utterly alien to fundamental mores of American self determination.

As a long term observer of the dark & fascist polity of NJ, I have to say that the most realistic hopes for near term RKBA reforms come from outside.

To whit, the best bet is skillfully filed lawsuits following a usable 14A incorporation ruling from SCOTUS.

As far as reform-from-within, my observation is that the people's "abiding belief" in the value of an armed citizenry is in tatters, and that the sentiment of most of the people follows the "liberal" dogma in the matter.

Until that happens, you won't be able to finesse the political mechanisms against the overwhelming tide of people who are utterly alien to fundamental mores of American self determination.

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Quoted for truth.