Gary O
Member
"the best use for a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle" ? Thanks...
Who said?
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ApacheCoTodd
member
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
old discussion here on TFL where they attribute it to Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch but it might be an old military saying
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3723
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3723
I thought it came out of the NTI conference...I thought I first read it in from a Ayoob article
chieftain
Member
I first heard it in the Corps in the mid sixties. IIRC it was the Company Gunny of the first infantry company I was attached to.
The TACP (Tactical Air Control Party) carried a very heavy PRC-41 UHF radio which weighted 42 lbs. In those days as a young PFC I always got the radio (before I went to Vietnam), and only carried a pistol. That's when the gunny was telling me to get a rifle. This was the pre-M16 days, so it was a M14.
As I found out later in Vietnam, the Gunny was right. Whether I carried the radio or not carry a rifle. Being cool was not as high on the to do list as staying alive.
Two things I did learn. Handguns are clearly not as effective to use or on target, it always appeared as an order of magnitude difference. Second, Those new radio's I see our boys using are sooooo much better than the heavy crap we had.
Good luck.
Fred
The TACP (Tactical Air Control Party) carried a very heavy PRC-41 UHF radio which weighted 42 lbs. In those days as a young PFC I always got the radio (before I went to Vietnam), and only carried a pistol. That's when the gunny was telling me to get a rifle. This was the pre-M16 days, so it was a M14.
As I found out later in Vietnam, the Gunny was right. Whether I carried the radio or not carry a rifle. Being cool was not as high on the to do list as staying alive.
Two things I did learn. Handguns are clearly not as effective to use or on target, it always appeared as an order of magnitude difference. Second, Those new radio's I see our boys using are sooooo much better than the heavy crap we had.
Good luck.
Fred
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
I think it was floating around long before Clint put it in print.
Chieftan, I could not agree more, as a medic I hauled around about as much weight as the RTO, the issued 45 was seldom used, got me a rifle real quick.
Chieftan, I could not agree more, as a medic I hauled around about as much weight as the RTO, the issued 45 was seldom used, got me a rifle real quick.
QFT.I don't know who said it originally, but it's oft quoted by so-called tactical gurus that don't live in the normal world to show how über-tactical they are....
You also see this nonsense all over forums being spread by guys who claim they keep a gun in the shower in a ziplock bag "just in case" they are attacked while washing their sensitive parts.
45_auto
Member
Unfortunately it's true, as Chieftain and Bikerdoc pointed out. If you've ever been in a rifle fight and all you have is a pistol, you'll quickly either become a believer or become dead.
Your self-defense SuperZootWilsonBaerGlockXDCZ is wimpy and inaccurate compared to ANY serious rifle out there.
(I keep my shower rifle in a plastic bag taped to my private parts, and you can't see the rifle!
)
Your self-defense SuperZootWilsonBaerGlockXDCZ is wimpy and inaccurate compared to ANY serious rifle out there.
(I keep my shower rifle in a plastic bag taped to my private parts, and you can't see the rifle!
)
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If somebody does pull a rifle on you at a distance the idea of you being able to "fight your way" to your rifle seems incredibly unlikely if they're competent with their weapon of choice in any way shape or form.Unfortunately it's true, as Chieftain and Bikerdoc pointed out. If you've ever been in a rifle fight and all you have is a pistol, you'll quickly either become a believer or become dead.
Your self-defense SuperZootWilsonBaerGlockXDCZ is wimpy and inaccurate compared to ANY serious rifle out there.
(I keep my shower rifle in a plastic bag taped to my private parts, and you can't see the rifle!
Around the house I can see the benefit of a long gun, in fact I keep a Maverick 88 next to the bed for just that reason (I know it isn't a rifle but for close range I'd rather have a 12 guage). I'm not about to start carrying a rifle in my car thinking that if I'm getting shot at that I'm actually going to be able to fight my way to my vehicle using a pistol and actually deploy that rifle without being killed in the process.
Outside in the real world (not the elite force that resides on the interwebs) though, aside from those serving in law enforcement or military careers, statistics say that you're unlikely to be attacked with a rifle anyways.
45_auto
Member
Outside in the real world, statistics say that you are unlikely to be attacked with ANYTHING.
But hey, if it makes you happy to think that you need a stick, pistol, rifle, cannon, gun by your bed, etc, etc, it's your choice!
David E
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In a military/battle/civil unrest situation, you're dang right I want a rifle!
But in the "normal" civilian world, as I mentioned, how does it make sense?
You're at the mall with wife and kids. You're attacked in the parking lot, but you're supposed to "use your pistol to fight your way back to the rifle" that's cased in the trunk of your car thats parked 40 yds away?
I don't think so.
But in the "normal" civilian world, as I mentioned, how does it make sense?
You're at the mall with wife and kids. You're attacked in the parking lot, but you're supposed to "use your pistol to fight your way back to the rifle" that's cased in the trunk of your car thats parked 40 yds away?
I don't think so.
Exactly.
Even if you're standing right next to your car and somebody decides to attack you with a rifle, you're still not going to be able to grab the rifle out of your trunk or back seat in time to make a difference unless they're far enough away (and not a good shot) that you could just get into the car and drive off.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
This is one of those things that illustrates so well the difference between the needs and tasks of military personnel and the armed citizen self-defender.
If you're a soldier or Marine engaged in fighting an armed conflict, you are guided by rules of engagement that allow, in fact require, you to participate in extended, long(er)-range hostilities. You're going to NEED a rifle to accomplish you job/duty (unless you're tasked with using even more powerful stuff ... like radios). If you're caught in a position where all you have on you is your handgun (and you even HAD a handgun) then you're fighting your way back to a rifle so you can continue to carry the fight to the enemy until that force is vanquished.
None of that has any direct analogy to civilian self-defense. There are hints of it here and there -- mostly in the "civil unrest" fantasies of some of the more ...enthusiastic... gun guys, where they're caught out in the yard by the lead element of the approaching mob and have to fight back into the house to grab a rifle and take up defensive positions at the bedroom window and pick off the main body of the attacking gang-banger posse ... or whatever.
But citizen self-defense is almost universally defined as fast, VERY short-range engagements between some good citizen just out "minding their own business" and one, two, or maybe a handful of attackers. Attackers who are out for quick monetary gain, usually, or at worst are looking for a soft victim for some process-predator assault. In these cases, the idea of a sustained fight in which you're offering a running active defense as you maneuver back to a strong-point and access more powerful weapons with which to drive off the assailants, just has no relevance.
We had a really interesting thread about this a year or two ago. One poster held firmly that he kept a rifle (SKS, I think) in his car, with the intent that, if he was attacked while out at the store or mall, he would use his handgun to fight his way back to the rifle stashed in his car.
My counter point was, "and then what?" Because if you have fought your way clear (or simply evaded) an active shooter situation, and you've made you way out into the parking lot to your car where you can get to your rifle. ... LEAVE! You've already successfully dealt with the self-defense issue.
We went 'round about it a few cycles with various "what ifs" thrown in. (What if my family is still in the mall and I've got to go back and find them? What if the shooter pursues me out into the parking lot? Etc.) But they all approached vanishingly small probability, and/or presented other more suitable solutions.
Self-defense encounters generally follow something pretty close to the "3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds" rule -- and your duty is to survive, escape, and evade. If you can't do that with your handgun, that rifle you're "fighting your way back to" doesn't even enter the picture.
So the idea of "...fight your way back..." is pretty much just a gung-ho soundbite that doesn't mean anything in a non-military context.
If you're a soldier or Marine engaged in fighting an armed conflict, you are guided by rules of engagement that allow, in fact require, you to participate in extended, long(er)-range hostilities. You're going to NEED a rifle to accomplish you job/duty (unless you're tasked with using even more powerful stuff ... like radios). If you're caught in a position where all you have on you is your handgun (and you even HAD a handgun) then you're fighting your way back to a rifle so you can continue to carry the fight to the enemy until that force is vanquished.
None of that has any direct analogy to civilian self-defense. There are hints of it here and there -- mostly in the "civil unrest" fantasies of some of the more ...enthusiastic... gun guys, where they're caught out in the yard by the lead element of the approaching mob and have to fight back into the house to grab a rifle and take up defensive positions at the bedroom window and pick off the main body of the attacking gang-banger posse ... or whatever.
But citizen self-defense is almost universally defined as fast, VERY short-range engagements between some good citizen just out "minding their own business" and one, two, or maybe a handful of attackers. Attackers who are out for quick monetary gain, usually, or at worst are looking for a soft victim for some process-predator assault. In these cases, the idea of a sustained fight in which you're offering a running active defense as you maneuver back to a strong-point and access more powerful weapons with which to drive off the assailants, just has no relevance.
We had a really interesting thread about this a year or two ago. One poster held firmly that he kept a rifle (SKS, I think) in his car, with the intent that, if he was attacked while out at the store or mall, he would use his handgun to fight his way back to the rifle stashed in his car.
My counter point was, "and then what?" Because if you have fought your way clear (or simply evaded) an active shooter situation, and you've made you way out into the parking lot to your car where you can get to your rifle. ... LEAVE! You've already successfully dealt with the self-defense issue.
We went 'round about it a few cycles with various "what ifs" thrown in. (What if my family is still in the mall and I've got to go back and find them? What if the shooter pursues me out into the parking lot? Etc.) But they all approached vanishingly small probability, and/or presented other more suitable solutions.
Self-defense encounters generally follow something pretty close to the "3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds" rule -- and your duty is to survive, escape, and evade. If you can't do that with your handgun, that rifle you're "fighting your way back to" doesn't even enter the picture.
So the idea of "...fight your way back..." is pretty much just a gung-ho soundbite that doesn't mean anything in a non-military context.
Loosedhorse
member
When Clint Smith says it
I think it's a useful phrase. Obviously, we carry handguns for convenience (or for compliance with the law where long guns cannot be carried legally). But...should I perhaps have a long gun available in the bedroom? In my car? Should I prefer a long gun as my go-to primary SD gun, in any place where it is practical to do that?
Questions worth considering.
He adds, "which you shouldn't have left behind in the first place."
I think it's a useful phrase. Obviously, we carry handguns for convenience (or for compliance with the law where long guns cannot be carried legally). But...should I perhaps have a long gun available in the bedroom? In my car? Should I prefer a long gun as my go-to primary SD gun, in any place where it is practical to do that?
Questions worth considering.
wickedsprint
Member
DammitBoy
Member
Wait, you mean you guys don't have one of these in the shower?
Jorg Nysgerrig
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Either way you'll never convince the elite tactical commando force that makes up at least 40% of this forum's population that they don't need to take along a rifle just in case of a Russian invasion ala Red Dawn. The crowd that is always saying "what if" and constantly planning contingencies for each and every scenario they can come up with.
The guys that really plan for these types of scenarios are the nut jobs that actually carry a Kel Tec Sub 2k carbine in a briefcase with two 30 round Glock mags and another Glock in their belt because they just know that that there will be some SHTF situation any day now.
The guys that really plan for these types of scenarios are the nut jobs that actually carry a Kel Tec Sub 2k carbine in a briefcase with two 30 round Glock mags and another Glock in their belt because they just know that that there will be some SHTF situation any day now.
+1 Sam1911 Right on... Well stated... Some civilian "self defense" scenarios that people dream up are often so far fetched and unlikely that seriously preparing for them is ridiculous. I might as well start carrying a scuba tank in the back seat of my car just in case I drive off a bridge.
David E
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DammitBoy, great pic, but if... or should I say when, you are ambushed in the shower how do you get into that bag quickly enough to defend yourself?
You ned a knife sealed in a vacuum bag to open the bag for the rifle quicker. Maybe even scissors in a zip lock bag to open the knife in a bag....
Sam1911 and Kiln, I agree with your posts.
You ned a knife sealed in a vacuum bag to open the bag for the rifle quicker. Maybe even scissors in a zip lock bag to open the knife in a bag....
Sam1911 and Kiln, I agree with your posts.
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