I love my AK-47 and know its more powerful then any handgun cartridge made. A lot of people carry a 44 magnum as a trail defense gun, but what about the AK? The AK is much more reliable then the M4/M16 jamomatics. What about bears? Oftentimes the 44 magnum is used as a bear defense system, but the Ak is more powerful then the magnum.
AK-47 as a trail gun? bear gun?
- Thread starter mailman
- Start date
- Status
Cal-gun Fan
Member
Depends what you're thinking when you say trail gun. I wouldn't take an AK backpacking, but if I'm, say, truck camping, or driving up to a spot in the woods and hiking? Sure, great choice. I'd advise you use Wolf 154gr soft point rounds.
Where do you live? Black bears are generally non-aggressive and afraid of you. I really enjoy seeing them out in the wild, wouldn't want to shoot one.
Where do you live? Black bears are generally non-aggressive and afraid of you. I really enjoy seeing them out in the wild, wouldn't want to shoot one.
meanmrmustard
Member
There isn't a huge difference in energy between the two compared with heavier 44 slugs. But, the bullet design for the 7.62x39 is a spire point, not a truncated slug like the 44 mag. The rifle round is designed to yaw and tear flesh, making a wound channel, and the 7.62 isn't that good at that. It more or less just blazes on through. The 44 smashes, creating a devastating shock that puts a hostile critter on its behind. This projectile design is why shotgun slugs are popular in bear country.
I'm not a bear expert, but I advise against the AKs use for bear medicine. Coy dogs? Sure. Deer? Absolutely. People? Yup.
No bears though.
The AK has the 44 trumped in range. Most bear charges, from what I read, are kinda like people skirmishes; close range and happen quick. Unless you know the bear is going to attack from 200 yards away, the rifle round is not as ideal as that flat, heavy bullet of the magnum.
I would suggest a 44 mag lever action, with a stout pistol as back up should you need it, like a Glock 20 or Colt anaconda. But, your best bet is an 870 with slugs.
I'm not a bear expert, but I advise against the AKs use for bear medicine. Coy dogs? Sure. Deer? Absolutely. People? Yup.
No bears though.
The AK has the 44 trumped in range. Most bear charges, from what I read, are kinda like people skirmishes; close range and happen quick. Unless you know the bear is going to attack from 200 yards away, the rifle round is not as ideal as that flat, heavy bullet of the magnum.
I would suggest a 44 mag lever action, with a stout pistol as back up should you need it, like a Glock 20 or Colt anaconda. But, your best bet is an 870 with slugs.
Last edited:
R.W.Dale
Member
I like my AK bullpup as a brush/trail deer rifle.
But make no mistake its NOT a large caliber magnum revolver shooting hardcast bullets. Even though energy figures favor 7.62x39 it takes understanding the difference in how a medium bore intermediate rifle cartridge kills vs the completely different mechanics that are in play with a large caliber slow moving chunk of lead.
But make no mistake its NOT a large caliber magnum revolver shooting hardcast bullets. Even though energy figures favor 7.62x39 it takes understanding the difference in how a medium bore intermediate rifle cartridge kills vs the completely different mechanics that are in play with a large caliber slow moving chunk of lead.
fallout mike
Member
M4,M16 jamomatics??
meanmrmustard
Member
Yeah, idk about that one either. I'm not a huge fan of DI, but jamomatics the M4 is not. They can jam, but they do not deserve that title. M16 of the Vietnam era might, but today's guns are a world apart from their predecessor.
You know what the M4 also isn't? A bear gun, kinda like the AK-47 shouldn't be.
WardenWolf
member
Or just get yourself a 16" Saiga .308 with the skeleton stock. Even unconverted, they're a very handy rifle. Lightweight, compact, and a LOT of firepower in your hands.
fallout mike
Member
Yep, when I think of a bear gun a ak47 isn't in my thoughts.
Even if the choice was between an AR and an AK, I'd take the AR all day long. The main reason being the availability of ammunition. The only ammunition available for an AK are the steel cased import variety, as far as I know. It's been a while since I gave AKs any thought.
Your charaterization of ARs as being jamomatics leads me to believe that you know very little about ARs.
In any case, I own plenty of rifles to include crack barrels, semi autos and bolt actions. These days, my chosen woods/trail rifle has been a carbine length lever action. If you need the thump, a .44 would do nicely.
Your charaterization of ARs as being jamomatics leads me to believe that you know very little about ARs.
In any case, I own plenty of rifles to include crack barrels, semi autos and bolt actions. These days, my chosen woods/trail rifle has been a carbine length lever action. If you need the thump, a .44 would do nicely.
mljdeckard
Member
Why not? I keep the SKS across the handlebars for two and four-legged predators.
Now, where I live, I won't encounter anything bigger than a black bear. Grizzlies are a different conversation.
Now, where I live, I won't encounter anything bigger than a black bear. Grizzlies are a different conversation.
MachIVshooter
Member
Welcome aboard, mailman!
That said, time for a little chastising
:
Wrong. Even from a handgun, heavy .44 mag loads can exceed the energy of 7.62x39mm from a rifle:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54
Then there are the .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W and a number of other proprietary and wildcat big bores that can produce much more energy than the 7.62x39mm (think nearly 3,000 ft/lbs for the .460 mag and .500 mag. from a revolver)
People like the .44 (and other big bore magnums) because carrying a handgun is much easier when they're not actually hunting the bear.
This tired old rhetoric has been proven wrong time and time again. It's something the AK guys like to spout off to keep ground whilst admitting that the AK will not hold a candle to the AR's accuracy. Simple fact is, both are very reliable weapons. Incidentally, of the numerous examples I own/have owned of both, the AR has proven more reliable than the AK. If it's my butt on the line, I'll take the AR every single time.
Don't get me wrong, the AK is preferable to a sharp stick for sure, but as falloutmike said:
If I'm gonna take a long gun into grizz country, it won't be chambered in a pitiful round like the x39. It'll be my .45-70 levergun with heavy loads or a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs.
That said, time for a little chastising
:Wrong. Even from a handgun, heavy .44 mag loads can exceed the energy of 7.62x39mm from a rifle:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54
Then there are the .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W and a number of other proprietary and wildcat big bores that can produce much more energy than the 7.62x39mm (think nearly 3,000 ft/lbs for the .460 mag and .500 mag. from a revolver)
People like the .44 (and other big bore magnums) because carrying a handgun is much easier when they're not actually hunting the bear.
This tired old rhetoric has been proven wrong time and time again. It's something the AK guys like to spout off to keep ground whilst admitting that the AK will not hold a candle to the AR's accuracy. Simple fact is, both are very reliable weapons. Incidentally, of the numerous examples I own/have owned of both, the AR has proven more reliable than the AK. If it's my butt on the line, I'll take the AR every single time.
Don't get me wrong, the AK is preferable to a sharp stick for sure, but as falloutmike said:
If I'm gonna take a long gun into grizz country, it won't be chambered in a pitiful round like the x39. It'll be my .45-70 levergun with heavy loads or a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs.
Last edited:
plateshooter
Member
You have an AK, and you say you love your AK. From my personal experience, Wolf 154gr steel case AK ammo worked great on the two 250lb+ hogs I have shot with it. Tennis ball size exit wound and the hogs were both dead at the shot. IMO, the AK would make a great trail gun. We all have our different opinions and experiences but I would feel quite confident with my old SAR1.
As far as ARs go, I have a 20 inch barreled AR in 762X39 and I like that gun too. The one I have is just too heavy for me to consider it a trail gun. No jams, very accurate and reliable with the AR Stoner 10 Round mags that I use.
As far as ARs go, I have a 20 inch barreled AR in 762X39 and I like that gun too. The one I have is just too heavy for me to consider it a trail gun. No jams, very accurate and reliable with the AR Stoner 10 Round mags that I use.
Last edited:
WardenWolf
member
PRVI Partizan makes an evil soft point that resembles a .30-30 round. I feel confident it'd wreck anything short of a grizzly's day. Just a nasty round.
meanmrmustard
Member
Are you referring to the Grom?
plouffedaddy
Member
You beat me to it. The advantage of the AK over a 44/460/500 revolver is the rate of fire. I know there are a lot of wheelgunners that are extremely talented but most people can accurately get off more shots with an AK at a given distance than with a revolver. The disadvantage would be if the bear surprised you---probably easier to employ the revolver if the bear got a hold of you (but the goal is to not let that happen
)dprice3844444
member
an ak with proper loads with bullets designed for bear/penetration, would be a good trail gun as the spire points would produce good penetration to reach the vitals,and not expand in the fat like hollowpoints will.also,clip capacity,at 30,if applicable by law,should be sufficient.
oldpapps
Member
Mr mailman,
"AK-47 as a trail gun (1)? bear gun (2)?
I love my AK-47 (3) and know its more powerful then any handgun cartridge made (4). A lot of people carry a 44 magnum as a trail defense gun, but what about the AK? The AK is much more reliable then the M4/M16 jamomatics (5). What about bears? Oftentimes the 44 magnum is used as a bear defense system, but the Ak is more powerful then the magnum."
(1) What? Just ambling down a fence row or hiking into a camp sight. I need more information to give a qualified answer to this question.
(2) The expected breed of bear that you anticipate makes a very large difference.
(3) There is your answer. The AK is your preference, not mine but yours.
(4) A 7.62X39 more potent than ANY and ALL pistol rounds. Don't think so. A faster rate of fire, yes, faster reloading, yes. But better energy transfer, no. Quicker to bring into action, no.
(5) Very provocative statement. Many will agree and many will not, I am one who does not agree.
If I am just ambling about out on my North East ridge, I can carry anything I like including my .375 H&H. Not good for much up there, but I could carry it.
Back when I could, when I walked into a place called 'Spout Springs Hollows', I didn't carry anything that wasn't needed.
I'm not sure that this is a valid post and was intended to stir up a controversy. And it has.
I wonder is some guy is logged in with his normal ID and setting back laughing his back side off. Matters not.
"AK-47 as a trail gun (1)? bear gun (2)?
I love my AK-47 (3) and know its more powerful then any handgun cartridge made (4). A lot of people carry a 44 magnum as a trail defense gun, but what about the AK? The AK is much more reliable then the M4/M16 jamomatics (5). What about bears? Oftentimes the 44 magnum is used as a bear defense system, but the Ak is more powerful then the magnum."
(1) What? Just ambling down a fence row or hiking into a camp sight. I need more information to give a qualified answer to this question.
(2) The expected breed of bear that you anticipate makes a very large difference.
(3) There is your answer. The AK is your preference, not mine but yours.
(4) A 7.62X39 more potent than ANY and ALL pistol rounds. Don't think so. A faster rate of fire, yes, faster reloading, yes. But better energy transfer, no. Quicker to bring into action, no.
(5) Very provocative statement. Many will agree and many will not, I am one who does not agree.
If I am just ambling about out on my North East ridge, I can carry anything I like including my .375 H&H. Not good for much up there, but I could carry it.
Back when I could, when I walked into a place called 'Spout Springs Hollows', I didn't carry anything that wasn't needed.
I'm not sure that this is a valid post and was intended to stir up a controversy. And it has.
I wonder is some guy is logged in with his normal ID and setting back laughing his back side off. Matters not.
Lets face it. The M4 jams...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/
75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM:
“Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”
25th Infantry Division soldier:
“The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”
82nd Airborne Division soldier:
“The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”
Sgt. Charles Perales of Fort Bragg, NC had this to say in a letter reprinted by Defense News:
“My unit – B Company, 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment – was deployed to Afghanistan from April 2005 to March 2006. While there, we were attached to Special Forces at Camp Tillman on the Afghan border…. I saw first-hand what happens when your weapon jams up because of the harsh environments we have to call home there. An 18B weapons sergeant was shot in the face due directly to his weapon jamming. I just can’t believe that after things like this happen, the Army is still buying more M4s."
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/
75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM:
“Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”
25th Infantry Division soldier:
“The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”
82nd Airborne Division soldier:
“The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”
Sgt. Charles Perales of Fort Bragg, NC had this to say in a letter reprinted by Defense News:
“My unit – B Company, 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment – was deployed to Afghanistan from April 2005 to March 2006. While there, we were attached to Special Forces at Camp Tillman on the Afghan border…. I saw first-hand what happens when your weapon jams up because of the harsh environments we have to call home there. An 18B weapons sergeant was shot in the face due directly to his weapon jamming. I just can’t believe that after things like this happen, the Army is still buying more M4s."
MachIVshooter
Member
I smell troll droppings.............
meanmrmustard
Member
Two posts in and he's already stirring the pot!
Even as much as I prefer the gas piston/AK design to the direct impingement system, calling the M4 a "jamomatics" is a blatant overstatement.
The AK, and correct me if I'm wrong, was never designed for bears in mind. Not did Stoner figure an AR would make a grizzly deterrent. Any rifle is better than none in bear country, but there are better options than the 7.62x39. It's a mid range deer round at best, not really qualified for bears. Same as cape buffalo or elephant, bears are most likely best dispatched with a hard hitting, slow moving round capable of bone crushing power with massive energy transfer. You aren't deer hunting, so penetration with controlled expansion bullets out of a round that mirrors the 30-30 at best should not really be an option. Whoever here said 45-70 earlier was in the correct spectrum of cartridge choice.
Also Mach, he's off topic on his OWN topic. I'd say the billy goats Gruff need to watch this guy closely.
- Status
