Denver Fox31 News Undercover ArmsList 'Stings' *continued... So they bought some guns

Over the years, I have bought several on parking lots.....none of which have been used in a crime! Was the easiest place to meet up.If I wasn't comfortable with the seller, I did not buy.
Dan

CoRoMo said:

Continuing from my last thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=713306

There is very little to tell here though. There really isn't a substantive story. But they try nonetheless.

http://kdvr.com/2013/04/29/we-bought-a-semi-automatic-uzi-in-the-parking-lot-of-babies-r-us/

Josh's efforts to label everything as an "assault rifle" is distracting but the primary point he attempts to make is that the openly public LOCATIONS chosen for the transactions should bring concern to the viewer. That and the fact that nobody at all in these public locations called the police to report the legal activity taking place. That was what he says dumbfounded him the most.

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Selling such items among strangers w/o mutual exchange of personal information (the so called 'no questions asked policy") is basically a form of lunacy.

These guys need to go back to catching state employees napping on the job.

Pablo: Do you believe it is the responsibility of the seller to determine criminal action/intent of the buyer? If you do, than you need to extend it to all sales. Your golf clubs for sale on cragslist may well be used to kill someone. Getting a photo copy of their IDs are you?
Lunacy is, to me, regulating private commerce. You going to make people show you their IDs at your next yard sale?

Funny that when he makes his NICS claims he doesn't follow up on the number that are turned down, the number that are criminally prohibited, and then of course the number that are actually prosecuted for attempting to buy. That is a story that should be written along with the other volumes of gun laws that are enforced at the leisure of whoever is in charge.

steveracer said:

Pablo: Do you believe it is the responsibility of the seller to determine criminal action/intent of the buyer? If you do, than you need to extend it to all sales. Your golf clubs for sale on cragslist may well be used to kill someone. Getting a photo copy of their IDs are you?
Lunacy is, to me, regulating private commerce. You going to make people show you their IDs at your next yard sale?

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Selling golf clubs to a convicted felon is not illegal. Selling a firearm to someone you have reason to believe is a convicted felon is. So sometimes, asking questions is just another form of self-defense. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Selling golf clubs to a convicted felon is not illegal. Selling a firearm to someone you have reason to believe is a convicted felon is. So sometimes, asking questions is just another form of self-defense. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

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I've got a hard time believing any court is going to be able to prove you intentionally sold a gun to a convicted felon you've never met before. Now, if you're selling to your neighbor, or cousin who us a felon, that's a different story.

But whatever makes you feel fuzzy inside

I've got a hard time believing any court is going to be able to prove you intentionally sold a gun to a convicted felon you've never met before. Now, if you're selling to your neighbor, or cousin who us a felon, that's a different story.

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Sometimes the prison tats can tell you something...

Must have been a slow news day.

Much too long to explain here, but prison tats tell their own story if you can read them. And if you can, they are not easily confused with the work of an outside artist.

The comments below the news article are interesting. The second comment is from one of the potential sellers who realized something wasn't quite kosher.

And, the news man was uncomfortable making the purchase in a toys r us parking lot?

He would feel better, where? Outside an Iron Horseman club? (I think it's Iron Horseman." That's a motorcycle club, right?)

Josh Bernstein, "We bought a semi-automatic Uzi in the parking lot of Babies “R” Us", Fox 31 Denver, 29 Apr 2013.

In just a matter of hours, Senior Investigative Reporter Josh Bernstein bought an AR15, an Uzi and a 9mm MAC 11 with three 30-round magazines and a box of bullets.

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"...box of bullets..." Great. Now he needs to buy a box primers, a can of powder, cartridge casings and a reloading kit to shoot 'em.

A .22 Uzi. The replica .22 UZI. Ho hum. I have a Marlin Model 60 and a Remington Nylon 66 that are both superior for use as weapons. Although an authentic .22 replica Uzi would be a nice addition to my small military collection, since a real 9mm Uzi is out of the question.

The private sellers of used guns probably thought they were dealing with an upright fellow citizen, not realizing they were dealing with ... gasp ... a reporter. (Reading the comments section of that article, some of the people the writer contacted realized and documented they were dealing with a "liar".)

According to a recent study by the City of New York unlicensed private sellers account for roughly 40 percent of sales nationwide.

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Another misrepresentation of the National Survey on Private Ownership and use of Firearms (NSPOF).
60% gunstores, pawnshops, sporting goods stores (FFLs)
13% private sales of used guns
3% private swaps or trades of used guns
19% gifts from family or friends
5% inheritances.

40% (lumping private sales and trades with gifts and inheritances) is a more impressive number than 13% or 16%.

Private gun sales are a booming business.

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Choice of language to make it sound private sales is increasing "booming". People have bought and sold used guns amongst themselves as long people have owned guns in America. Yeah, I guess they have been booming (and banging, popping and cracking depending on velocity) in one sense of the word.

NSPOF measured where the lawabiding acquire guns: a random sample of ordinary citizens for the National Institute of Justice NIJ.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics asked a sample of state inmates where they got their guns:
13.9% Retail Sources:
8.3% Retail store
3.8% Pawnshop
1.0% Flea market
0.7% Gun show
39.6% Friends or family:
12.8% Purchase or trade
18.5% Rent or borrow
8.3% Other
39.2% Street/illegal source:
9.9% Theft or burglary
20.8% Drug dealer/street
8.4% Fence/black market
(On friends and family, the "Armed and Considered Dangerous" survey of felons noted "friends" supplying guns to felons were often fellow criminals, as would be many family of felons.)

"We bought a semi-automatic ...."

Come to think of it, since the 1890s more and more new guns are semi-automatic.

"We bought a manually operated repeater ...."

THAT would, statistically speaking, be the "man bites dog" newsworthy story.

Sometimes the prison tats can tell you something...

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I'll second CoRoMo's response. I'm pretty covered in tattoos, and hang out with a lot of people who are also covered. Their crappy tattoos they got when they were 16 in some guys basement look like "prison tats" to me. I've also seen some work done in prisons that rival the work done in the best of shops.

Tattoos, color, gender, dress, hairstyle, etc. do not always tell you who a person is. Now if they're wearing gang colors, throwing up gang signs, that's a little obvious.

In Illinois we have the FOID card. I can not sell to anyone that does not have one and by law am required to record their info and keep it for 10 years. The state police run all Foid card holders thru a background check every 24 hrs so if someone has a card I know that they are not a felon.

smalls said:

I've got a hard time believing any court is going to be able to prove you intentionally sold a gun to a convicted felon you've never met before. Now, if you're selling to your neighbor, or cousin who us a felon, that's a different story.

But whatever makes you feel fuzzy inside

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Do you really want to leave that decision up to a court? Whenever I sell a firearm in a private transaction, I require that they either show me a concealed carry permit or handgun purchase permit (if it's a handgun). I also get a copy of their ID and we both sign a copy of a bill of sale. I have a file in my filing cabinet just for such sales. I even have a copy of my mom's license and a bill of sale for a handgun I sold to her.

I do this because I don't want to leave a future issue up to courts anymore than I have to. I want a clear paper trail that takes the weapon out of my hand and shows that I went above and beyond what was required and took the buyers information. That gun could get sold down the line and if a cop comes knocking on my door asking "Is this your gun?" I want to have proof that the gun left my hands in a legal manner. This is my choice...YMMV.

They bought guns legally in a parking lot?!?! We really need tougher laws. Like the ones that prevent drugs from being sold in parking lots. That never happens anymore....ever....

While I agree totally that judging a book by its cover can be dangerous, those that have worked in corrections and/or law enforcement can readily identify SOME tats as "prison tats" I don't know too many people who tat themselves with Black Gorilla Family, Aryan Nation, Mexican Mafia, Hells Angels, Blood, Crip, or MS13 tats just for kicks and giggles. Its not the quality of ink or the quantity of ink that triggers judgement....its the actual content of the tats themselves that tell the story. Quite frankly, if I recognized the above tats, I'd certainly have hesitations about whether to complete the sale or not....and chances are, the next guy in line isn't going to ring every alarm bell I have, so I'd most likley refuse the sale personally. Your mileage may very and of course we are all free to conduct ourselves as we see fit.

Tattoo's are no more a sign that a person is a felon than is the color of one's skin. It's totally irrelevant.

I'm inked. I also wear a leather jacket, ride a motorcycle, drink beer, smoke cigars, and swear on occasion. But, I am not a felon. And while I may possibly recognize some popular gang tats, I couldn't tell a "prison tat" from a trendy hello kitty tat. Heck, I wouldn't even presume that all gang members are felons (which is what would actually make them a prohibited person), but I'm quite certain there are plenty of prohibited persons, including violent felons, that have no tats at all. Unless a person has the word FELON actually tattooed across their forehead, I'm not going to assume anybody is a felon just because they wear some ink.

If a person decides not to sell firearms to people with tats, that's certainly their choice, and I won't judge them for it. But, I'll leave you with this... My uncle (RIP) had more ink than anybody I've ever personally known. He also retired after a long and distinguished career as a policeman. Yes, looks can be deceiving.

Like I said, I realize its not an exact science, but when I see SupremeWhite Power, Hells Angels, etc........... OBVIOUS gang tats, its not someone I feel comfortable dealing with. No one can make me sell a gun to someone I don't feel comfortable doing so. It may not mean they're a felon, but that doesn't mean I want my AK hanging up in the local MC's clubhouse or in some ghetto crack den., and if I see signs that lead me to believe that may very well be where its headed, there's absolutely nothing that compels me to think its a great idea to make the sale. Someone doesn't necessarily have to be a felon for me to think selling them a gun might not be the smartest move I could make, and an obvious current or even past gang affiliation is a pretty good indicator of criminal activity. Maybe you can't tell a Hello Kitty trampstamp from a full on Hells Angels winged skull....but some of us can.

Our objective was not to take a stance on gun control.....

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Another guy hocking a highly modified AR15 met us at a Jefferson County Walmart — right under the security cameras.

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He was peddling a semi-automatic 9mm Uzi and three 30-round magazines.

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Uh-huh