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12GA Rifle From HELL--

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. wolf695

    wolf695 New Member

    Nov 21, 2011
    Nice job! send me a message, I got some more Ideas for you to try out!
  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
    and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

    We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
    of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
    bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
    actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.


    Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
    458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
    was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
    in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
    fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
    good resistance for good ignition.


    Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
    bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
    will go about mach 4.


    Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
    coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
    too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
    we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

  3. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed


    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
    extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
    and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
    or wide hollowpoint. .


    Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
    and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
    sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
    315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.


    I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.

    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
    to our 585HE the strongest yet.

    The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
    and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
    of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
    24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
    reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
    We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
    with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

    Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
  5. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
    sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
    middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
    which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
    sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
    special made hollowed out long roll crimper.


    Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
    An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
    PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
    cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
    being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
    like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

    And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
    spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
    3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
    Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
    where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
    steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.


    I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
    actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
    Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
    cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
    inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
    Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
    like me can do.....


    A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
    ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
    to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
    The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
    for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
    and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

  6. akarguy

    akarguy New Member

    May 10, 2014
    that must be what Spielberg used to slay this beast....

  7. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    That is a critter if they were around, that would
    be a good test of our cartridges,Ed
  8. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
    here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
    bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
    but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
    mach 4 with a top load..


    Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
    It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
    sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
    bunch of them and so does McGowen.


    Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
    It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
    hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
    hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
    work in our 12ga sabot..


    But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
    can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
    of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
    Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.


    Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
    way to keep them together group wise.Ed

  9. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

    Nov 18, 2013
    Thank you for keeping this thread going. Very interesting work.
  10. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
    recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,


    Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in a 12ga dangerous
    game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells it


    There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
    Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
    for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
    first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
    go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..


    Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
    style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.


    Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
    singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
    adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
    Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.


    And speaking of single shots a fellow in the Yukon is
    just finishing up one in a Ruger #1. A 585HE....ED
  11. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
    target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
    necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
    before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

    One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
    was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
    and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
    down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

    They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
    Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
    shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
    a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
    180gr under a 750gr'.

    We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
    and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
    and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
    big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
    maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
    if they could have found couple barrels full.

    But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
    multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
    which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
    falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
    and moderate loads, last forever..

    For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
    (not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
    gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
    To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
    wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
    with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

    Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

  12. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Sorry to be away so long--Health and money problems.

    Here are couple 24ga FHs in break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
    585 barrel in it, and a guys NEF he had a 585 barrel monoblocked in.
    The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga and 585 Minie Bullets
    are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.



    Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when
    I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind.

    That is truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck
    garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
    walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
    got so bad she can't work, nearly invalid. So we fanally had to
    quit that, but were and are in debt. We need littlr extra money to try
    to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.
    As well as needed to pay for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc.

    Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
    and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
    debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into my paypal account as gifts.
    And if you want to mail it, use email below to contact me to get you
    my mailing address.

    The Paypal email is je@gunownerstv.com

    Best Regards- Ed

    PS-- I really need help. Not astronomical amounts, but fairly fast.
    Just a little from each to help.
    We never made anything on the 12ga FH, etc, work and research.
    The little coming from sale of our groups buy of 585 brass, dies,
    barrels, etc, goes to pay to the places, where the money
    is owed, for getting them made..Ed
  13. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
    Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
    Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.


    Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
    sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
    sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
    sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
    and punch it back out.


    And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
    You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
    We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
    we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
    diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
    But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
    type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
    RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
    speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
    powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

    There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
    RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
    for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
    as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
    Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
    that Nitrochemie made..

    Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
    I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
    into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
    And guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy. slug loads..Ed
  14. 200Apples

    200Apples Participating Member

    Jul 6, 2013
    Los Angeles
    Although I haven't read every single word in this truly epic thread, what I have read has been quite an education. Thanks for your efforts, Ed, for whatever that's worth. One day I might build/have built for me something along the lines of the various Rifles from Hell featured herein, and you've left something behind, here, for the rest of us... very unselfish of you.
  15. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Thanks and we will keep going as long as we can.
    We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,


    Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
    He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
    There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.


    Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
    He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.


    We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
    long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
    using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
    One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
    made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
    and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

    And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
    these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
    another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
    stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
    we have barrels....Ed

  16. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

    Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
    as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
    the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
    Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around


    Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
    in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
    Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
    like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
    The scope rail is a piccatiny type.



    The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
    block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
    Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

    About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
    sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
    is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
    with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
    extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
    When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
    the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
    The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
    Just keep on building...Ed

  17. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
    a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
    stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed


    More about 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, AR Uppers,
    Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
    One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
    Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
    to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
    that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet
    Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
    Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
    Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP.

    In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
    By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
    Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.


    Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
    On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
    and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
    weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
    Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
    like a compact UTG sight...Ed

  18. Ckgworks

    Ckgworks New Member

    Dec 14, 2015
    Wow! This has taken a couple days to digest, and I finally had to sign up to ask Ed a few questions. First off your work on this amazes me....well done. I have been playing with SxS 12 gauge smooth bores for a bit, as poor boy double rifles. I have picked up a project and am finally feeling bold enough to un solder the barrels and make it regulate the right way, ......then I saw the 12gauge FH! My main question is on older SxS's, many of these are mono blocks, and have three locking lugs. I'm wondering about replacing the barrels from the mono block with rifled barrels and than regulating. How do you go about determine what these old actions would hold up too? I'm mainly thinking of a solid slug in a hot 3". I'm not man enough to step all the way up to your full size dragon slayer.
  19. hubel458

    hubel458 Active Member

    Mar 1, 2003
    Those with three lugs will hold ok if one lug is

    a top lug like a Greener top lug. They will take

    14,000 psi loads in 3" plastic and 21,000 psi loads

    in RMC brass cases. We tested 3" plastic at

    14,000 plus that we used in NEFs and got 720 gr close

    to 1900 in the NEF. Ed
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
  20. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound New Member

    Feb 15, 2013
    Got a NEF 12ga at LGS...
    What do I look for to find out if this is suitable for 12g FH???


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