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A full auto legal question

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by 627PCFan, Jan 21, 2011.

  1. 627PCFan

    627PCFan Participating Member

    Oct 18, 2007
    Sterling, VA
    Just bouncing this off everyone...ATF says a machine gun discharges more than one round with each pull of the trigger......

    What if you welded the firing pin in place on the bolt on a Ruger Mark 2 pistol......a removed all trigger components of the gun.....by definition a gun has to have a trigger or firing device. Legalities of doing this?
  2. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Mentor

    Sep 21, 2007
    Californicated Colorado

    The inclusion of 'the frame or receiver... any part designed... any combination of parts...' would surely cover it. After all, a frame does not have a trigger... yet.
  3. o Unforgiven o

    o Unforgiven o Active Member

    Jul 19, 2010
    Central FL
    First, the ATF describes a machine gun as "automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger".

    I am assuming what you mean is to lock the firing pin inside of the bolt with the tip exposed so that the semi automatic action will keep firing rounds "automatically". Since you have removed the trigger and it's components it is not by any action of a trigger that causes this which would appear legal. Sounds good on paper but I think this part may clear it up.

    The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled
  4. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Senior Member

    Aug 16, 2006
    I can't remember the name of the case, but it would still be defined as a machinegun. Someone in the 1980s tried to skirt this law by selling slamfire Sten guns. The guns were set up like you describe. The ATF considered the triggerless Stens to be MGs.
  5. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Senior Member

    Jan 15, 2006
    Plano, Texas
    So what device or action "triggers" the initial shot?

    Pulling back the bolt and letting it fly?
  6. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Mentor

    Jul 13, 2008
    Near Camp Perry
    Making a target pistol fire from an open bolt with no way to control it until the mag is empty would be an interesting experiment. I would enjoy watching from a distance ... through binoculars, perhaps.

    In the practical sense, having a FP sticking out of the boltface would lead to feeding failures at best and out-of-battery detonations at worst, in addition to annoying the all-seeing all-knowing BATFE.
  7. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

    Feb 26, 2011
    se fla i love claymores 01/sot
    Sputter GunFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Sputter Gun
    Type Submachine gun
    Place of origin United States
    Service history
    In service None
    Used by None
    Wars None
    Production history
    Designed ~
    Produced ~1982-1985
    Barrel length 7.8 inches (197 mm)


    Cartridge 9x19mm Parabellum
    Action Blowback-operated, Open bolt
    Rate of fire ~500 round/min
    Muzzle velocity 1,200 ft/s (365 m/s)
    Effective range 50 yards (46 m)
    Feed system 32 round detachable box magazine
    The Sputter Gun was a modification of the British Sten Submachine Gun, designed to circumvent then-existing U.S. laws defining a machine gun. The Sputter Gun, lacking a trigger, was designed to fire multiple rounds upon release of the bolt, until all ammunition was expended. The Sputter Gun was, however, reclassified as a machine gun by the ATF.

    Contents [hide]
    1 Background
    2 Reclassification
    3 See also
    4 External links
    5 References

    [edit] BackgroundIn 1985, the ATF became aware that William M. York, doing business as York Arms Co., was selling a modified version of a Mk.II Sten that was capable of fully automatic fire. York advertised the gun as a weapon for those "who want the fun and excitement of owning and firing a fully automatic weapon without the government tax and red tape." The ATF instructed York to recall weapons already sold and issue refunds. This was unnecessary, however, as none had been sold.[1]

    [edit] ReclassificationThe ATF originally defined a machine gun as any weapon capable of firing multiple rounds by a single trigger action. This was changed, in light of the Sputter Gun, to read[1]

    The 'shoots automatically' definition covers weapons that will function automatically. The 'readily restorable' definition defines weapons which previously could shoot automatically but will not in their present condition. The 'designed' definition includes weapons which have not previously functioned as machineguns but possess specific machinegun design features which facilitate automatic fire by simple alteration or elimination of existing component parts.

    [edit] See alsoGun politics in the United States
    Firearm action
    [edit] External linksSten oddities
    [edit] References^ a b York v. Secretary of Treasury, 774 F.2d 417 (1985)
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputter_Gun"
    Categories: Submachine guns
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  8. PTK

    PTK Senior Member

    Mar 25, 2007
    Yep, that's what I was going to mention - the bike handled "Sputter Gun" Sten. :)
  9. Motega

    Motega Member

    Jan 27, 2011
    You'll sit in jail while they sort it out.
  10. Husker_Fan

    Husker_Fan Active Member

    May 28, 2008
    A trigger isn't necessarily a curved piece of metal inside the guard, at least in the context of the statute. It is whatever the shooter engages to fire the weapon. Crank guns are ok, because the crank is the trigger and it must be continuously moved by the shooter. Hook up a motor with a switch to the crank and you have a machine gun because the electrical switch is the trigger and a single function of it results in multiple shots.

    That's why the Akins Accellerator wound up being a MG, but a "Slide Stock" isn't.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  11. The Law

    The Law New Member

    Feb 15, 2007
    Las Vegas, NV
    The ATF dealt with this issue vis-a-vis miniguns. At first, they were not regulated since many had an electric switch, not a "trigger." They have since broadened the definition of a "trigger."

    And that includes miniguns.
  12. Patriot1/3

    Patriot1/3 member

    Dec 23, 2010
    Alter the weapon then contact the ATF show a demo.:)
  13. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

    Feb 26, 2011
    se fla i love claymores 01/sot
    submit the plans,never alter the weapon and show atf.your not a title 2 manufacturer
  14. kozak6

    kozak6 Active Member

    Apr 10, 2011
    The BATFE can redefine the word "trigger" to mean anything they want it to mean.
  15. ants

    ants Senior Member

    Nov 24, 2007

    You fire your J.R. Spicer model FA22 (with 25 round magazine inserted) by pulling back the bolt by the handle and then... Letting go of the bolt handle.

    So the bolt handle is your trigger.

    Every machine in the world has something that initiates its action.
    On a gun, whatever the part may look like, we call it the trigger.
    Whether it looks like a traditional trigger or not, if it initiates the action it is the trigger.

    Look at Browning machine guns with the paddle on the back.
    Look at miniguns with an electric switch.
    Look at WW I Vickers machine guns with the lever on top.
    WW II fighter planes with the button on the joy stick.

    It doesn't have to look like a trigger.
    If it initiates firing, it's the trigger of a gun.
    Your bolt handle will be your trigger.
  16. vcptech

    vcptech New Member

    May 1, 2011
    That would be considered a machine gun.
    Not legal.
  17. kingcheese

    kingcheese Active Member

    Nov 29, 2008
    trigger is the thing that starts of the chain of events right?

    when we ask what started something, we refer to something as being the triger?

    so id say that what ever fires the gun, is always a trigger

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