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Action Needed!! Stimulus Bill Threatens Gun Ownership

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by edSky, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. edSky

    edSky Well-Known Member

    Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
    8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
    Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408

    "HR 1 is about more than just pork. Millions of gun owners stand to
    lose their gun rights without any due process." -- Larry Pratt, GOA
    Executive Director

    Wednesday, February 11, 2009

    The Obama administration is putting a lot of pressure on Congress to
    slam through the most recent $800+ billion bailout package before anyone
    has an opportunity to read it.

    The Obama administration intones that the details are unimportant. The
    only thing that matters is the "bigness." And, by shipping a bill of
    nearly $900 billion (plus interest) to our children and grandchildren,
    the package is really, really big -- bigger, in fact, than the budget of
    our entire government for the first 170 years of our country's

    But now that some of the details are finally starting to leak out of
    Washington, Gun Owners -- and a lot of other analysts -- are beginning
    to look at the fine print. And some of it is particularly scary.

    Of particular concern to gun owners are sections 13101 through 13434 of
    HR 1, which would set up the infrastructure to computerize the medical
    records of ALL AMERICANS in a government-coordinated database.

    True, the bill doesn't mandate that the data will be in a giant computer
    under the Oval Office. But it does mandate that your medical records be
    reduced to a computerized form which is available to it in a second.

    This it would do by establishing a National Coordinator for Health
    Information Technology -- tasked with, among other things, "providing
    information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of

    It should be scary enough that a government bureaucrat is directed by
    statute to try to influence your doctor's decisions with respect to your
    medical care.

    But of even greater concern to gun owners is the fact that a
    government-coordinated database (which government can freely access)
    will now contain all records of government-provided and private
    psychiatric treatment -- including, in particular, the drugs which were

    Remember last year's "NICS Improvement Act" -- otherwise known as the
    Veterans Disarmament Act? This law codified ATF's attempts to make you
    a prohibited person on the basis of a government psychiatrist's finding
    that you are a "danger" -- without a finding by any court. Well,
    roughly 150,000 battle-scarred veterans have already been unfairly
    stripped of their gun rights by the government.

    But people who, as kids, were diagnosed with Attention Deficit
    Disorder... or seniors with Alzheimer's... or police with Post-Traumatic
    Stress Disorder... or people who are now theoretically covered by the
    new law... these people have, generally, not suffered the consequences
    of its sanctions -- YET. And the chief reason is that their records are
    not easily available to the government in a central, easily retrievable,
    computerized form.

    The bailout bill would change all of that. It would push increasingly
    hard to force your private psychiatrist or government-sanctioned
    psychiatrist to turn over your psychiatric records to a massive
    database. This would be mandated immediately if your doctor does
    business with the government.

    This would supposedly save Medicare money in connection with medical
    treatment. And, the sponsors insist, they would work very hard to
    protect your privacy.

    But this turns the concept of "privacy" on its head. The privacy which
    is MOST important is privacy from the prying eyes of government -- not
    privacy of government data against the prying eyes of others. After
    all, many government data bases have been hacked in recent years, with
    mountains of information stolen.

    So, once the government has access to these computerized psychiatric
    records, the stage will be set for using that database to take away the
    gun rights of those with Alzheimer's, those with ADD, and those with

    ACTION: Write your two senators. Urge them to vote against the bailout
    bill (HR 1) until it is stripped of provisions which would turn your
    psychiatric records over to a central government-coordinated database
    against your will -- without you getting your day in court.

    You can go to the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at
    http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm to send your Senators the
    pre-written e-mail message below.

    ----- Prewritten Letter -----
  2. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Well-Known Member

    If you apply for a CPL in WA State you are already agreeing to let the .gov do this...
  3. edSky

    edSky Well-Known Member

    Ok, so we might as well just give up!!!

    It's no wonder the government takes away our rights, and keeps them.
  4. expvideo

    expvideo Well-Known Member

    Believing that this in any way affects gun owners require that one already believes that this is all part of a big government conspiracy. This is the most rediculous article I've read in a long time. It looks like someone went through the entire stimulus bill trying to find some minute way that it might possibly affect gun owners, and refused to take "it won't" as an answer. It requires a lot of imagination to even remotely humor this conspiracy theory.
  5. porterdog

    porterdog Well-Known Member

    "It requires a lot of imagination to even remotely humor this conspiracy theory."

    Must respectfully disagree. While the scenario outlined may not as of yet occurred to those with access to the records, who would have believed 10 years ago that your rights could be similarly stripped by your appearance on a 'no fly list' that you've got no structural/procedural way of getting off of?

    Big brother creeps me out.
  6. edSky

    edSky Well-Known Member

    I agree. I think most of the people on this and other boards are just kids with guns, and didn't grow up in this country when roadblocks, DUI or otherwise, were things only done in communist countries. When cops couldn't (and didn't) search any and all sealed containers in your car because you might be doing something wrong. When the government didn't exercise warrantless wiretaps just because they might catch someone.

    Big Brother is here, and we are being spoon-fed BS and lapping it up.

    The argument that someone is looking for something anti-gun is weak. If our government was all about us and our freedoms, not acting as though we can't take care of ourselves, we wouldn't have things like this hidden in a 600+ page stimulus bill.

    Based on the roll-over-and-die reactions I'm seeing, I think our country is doomed.
  7. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Well-Known Member

    I'm more concerned that this law would give the federal government final say over what treatments my doctor wishes to proscribe for me (and the rationing of health care as I get older ending with me dying of some disease that the Fed.Gov decides is too expensive to treat). And the chilling effect this would have on medical research (no "unproven" medical techniques can be used, and since new techniques are never used they're never proved).

    The connection to the NCIS Improvement Act is something I hadn't thought of, but its not the worst part of this.

  8. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Well-Known Member

    Ok folks. Here is my take...and I know of which I speak.

    What they are proposing is called a RHIO...Regional Health Information Organization...in this case I guess this would be a NHIO...NationalHIO.

    My company participates in a RHIO here in Indiana, one of the best in the USA, called IHIE.

    Anybody in any facet of Healthcare, from hospitals to eyeglass vendors is very familiar with an act called HIPAA. HIPAA forbids the use of Personal Health Information for purposes other than TPO (Treatment, Payment, or Operation). Now there are provisions in HIPAA for other things. One thing is that the PATIENT has the right to request (in fact demand) that their medical record be amended. So let's say you were diagnosed with PTSD from your service in Afghanistan. You can request (in fact demand) that that be removed from you medical record. Now, there is some back and forth that can take place but let me assure you, if you get a lawyer it will be deleted. We do it all the time...and don't make 'em get a lawyer.

    So, the darn thing kind of scares me too...no question. But knowing that a) this stuff is very hard to do, and b) will cost a boatload, I am less scared. For example, the goverment money may go to build a database but all the little doctors offices out there will have to pay for their end...buy computers, etc. That will take a very, very long time.

    So, by all means, the letter above is good and appropriate and you all should send one in. But it will be very hard to find out all this stuff about you. Obama himself says that not everything he has going in this package is going to work...said it right there in that news conference Monday night. In my opinion, based on 25 years of hospital computing experience, gathering everyone's medical records together in one place with sufficient detail to be able to find specific diagnoses (like PTSD), find specific medications (like Prozac) is the healthcare computing equivilent of building the Panama Canal or maybe even putting a man on Mars. It is far easier, to have a Social Security Number out in a database and have some key information (felony convict, spouse abuse) loaded in discrete fields than trying to parse through petabyte after petabyte of detailed coded or free form information (so if the doctor spells Prozac wrong, you're off the hook!).

    Very very complicated.
  9. edSky

    edSky Well-Known Member

    I've been developing software since the 1970's. Once they gather this information, they can mark it deleted, but no way in hell is it deleted. Why do we have agencies like the NSA listening to phone conversations if they aren't supposed to? If you think, for a minute, this won't come back and be used against you, you are mistaken.

    HIPAA hasn't prevented people from violating the rules, just like "No Smoking" and "Gun Free Zone" signs don't work. I've never seen someone who can walk and see park in a handicapped space, have you? :banghead:
  10. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Well-Known Member

    Well true enough Ed up to a point. What I am saying is that this is so complicated that it will take them 20 years to do it. That's all. And yeah, they mark it but if the programs that run against the data filter on the the delete flag, flagged records won't show up. You know how hard it is Ed to get two applications to talk to each other. Imagine every single solitary healthcare provider trying to talk to a central location. 20 years minimum.
  11. edSky

    edSky Well-Known Member

    True enough.
  12. chemist308

    chemist308 Well-Known Member

    How is this planning? It's urging you to write your congressman.

    Anyway, I did that.
  13. Audrey

    Audrey Well-Known Member

    Time to write your "representatives" and let them know you DO NOT support this, and if they are unable to fulfill their role as your representative you will find someone who is.
  14. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Well-Known Member

    I don't see anything about this on the NRA's website, so I'm not sure it would actually have that affect. Of course, they might just be trying not to offend people who do support this bill.
  15. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Well-Known Member

    Blows my mind... It used to be in this country that you actually had to be guilty of something before the bars slammed shut on you. Seems that now days, all you have to do is make it on some list (lists which in and of themselves are arbitrarily kept with virtually no oversight) and bam, you can't buy guns or fly on planes or operate heavy machinery...

    It is just another FEEL GOOD measure that will accomplish nothing and deny rights to many until the Supreme Court turns it over. My point being is that being denied a "gun" has a certain STIGMA to it. Imagine if you were in a court of law and the prosecutor brought up the fact (just to prejudice the jury) that medical records have barred you from owning a firearm... Implying some kind of evidence or pattern of danger or violence on your part.

    Liberals... Change gun to AIDS and their attitudes turn around 180 degrees.
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Let's see less hand wringing and some more planning or this goes in the trash.

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