Sam Cade
Member
The svord is 1/8", the same thickness as an 12" OKC but the blade is slightly narrower and shorter OAL.
I've got both and prefer the short OKC with the loop sawn off.
Is it hype if it is true?
Affordable Hunting/Backpacking Knife
- Thread starter rodwha
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I've got both and prefer the short OKC with the loop sawn off.
Is it hype if it is true?
I like Mora knives for the value, but the truth/hype is debatable. I have 7-8 carbon steel Moras, including 3 of the laminated steel ones. The factory edge is not something I'd rely on, far from civilization. The edge will roll cutting slices off a thin piece of quarter sawn douglas fir (I think the growth rings in this "soft wood" are actually harder than oak, to be fair). Even the laminated blades roll. And for ease of sharpening, I'd put the scandi grind at the bottom of the class, personally. 
Only 3 of my moras still have a scandi grind, and I sharpen them the same way as the rest of my knives, with a microbevel. It's just the secondary bevel (well, primary, technically) on these knives takes a lot longer to grind.
Maybe the sandvik stainless is better at holding that acute 24ish degree edge?
Only 3 of my moras still have a scandi grind, and I sharpen them the same way as the rest of my knives, with a microbevel. It's just the secondary bevel (well, primary, technically) on these knives takes a lot longer to grind.
Maybe the sandvik stainless is better at holding that acute 24ish degree edge?
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Sam Cade
Member
Even the laminated blades roll. And for ease of sharpening, I'd put the scandi grind at the bottom of the class, personally.
I've never had any issues with rolling edges. The carbon steel blades are 1095 so there isn't any material reason for them to exhibit poor performance.
That said, I don't try to pound a feather light, near zero ground slicer-carver knife through seasoned hardwoods with a maul while shrieking the traditional caterwaul of my people.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/video/What-Did-the-Rebel-Yell-Sound-Like.html
I'd put the scandi grind at the top of the list for ease of maintenance. Just find a flat piece of sandstone or limestone and grind away.
The reason is that when zero ground "true scandi," the edge angle is around 24 degrees. There's no knife steel that will hold that angle, and 1095 isn't even close to the top of the heap in that regard. Even cheap ole 440C is better.
My personal test was controlled slicing (not hacking/pounding) strips off a very thin piece of douglas fir, quarter sawn to <1/8" thick. With the zero scandi grind, they fail. With a very tiny microbevel of about 35 degrees, they all pass. Laminated or 1095, didn't matter. When quarter sawn, the softer wood and the harder growth rings alternate, so this apparently makes it more challenging. But it's still a tiny piece of softwood!
Also, for those that think you can strop on a microbevel, I suppose it's technically true. But I have wasted lots of time stropping these knives to keep them sharp on my woodworking bench, before abandoning the idea of a zero scandi. Maybe if you stropped for 30-40 minutes, you would get there.
... and grind, and grind... and keep on grinding. The scandi is easy to maintain the same angle on the bevel, yeah. But it is also putting the maximum amount of steel on the stone. When I sharpen my scandi grinds, I'm using maximum 180 grit sandpaper, not a piece of limestone, and I often call it quits before reaching the edge. Heck, on my latest adventure, thinning the bevel on a larger 440 knife by essentially putting a scandi grind on it, I gave up and I was using an 80 grit belt sander. When I get a new belt, I'm gonna thin out the primary grind into a convex.
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I'd have to disagree with you if you're implying that Scandi grinds make for poor wood-working edges, and I think I have all of Scandinavia, Russia, plenty of outdoorsmen plus the bushcrafting crowd who'd agree with me.
Yes, sometimes the Scandi bevel can be fragile, but I just strop the edge a bit after sharpening without any more need for care. The beauty of Scandi grinds is that it will always sharpen to the same angle and is one of he easiest edges to maintain. All you need are a few sheets of sanding paper (320-400 grit are enough) and a flat surface, like your workbench, a sheet of glass, or even a mousepad to hold the sandpaper as you sharpen your knife by pushing it along the bevels across the paper. It'd be easier to mangle the edge of your knife with stones, rods or even on sharpeners, than by using the entire bevel as your sharpening guide.
Yes, sometimes the Scandi bevel can be fragile, but I just strop the edge a bit after sharpening without any more need for care. The beauty of Scandi grinds is that it will always sharpen to the same angle and is one of he easiest edges to maintain. All you need are a few sheets of sanding paper (320-400 grit are enough) and a flat surface, like your workbench, a sheet of glass, or even a mousepad to hold the sandpaper as you sharpen your knife by pushing it along the bevels across the paper. It'd be easier to mangle the edge of your knife with stones, rods or even on sharpeners, than by using the entire bevel as your sharpening guide.
First off, the bushcrafting crowd has nothing to add to the discussion. Bushcrafters are people that like knives and occasionally go outdoors. That's about it. Most people who like knives don't even know how to sharpen them.
Secondly, I'm talking about shallow, zero scandi's in particular, such as on a Mora. I personally know of knives being made with a 33 degree scandi grind, just as an example. There's no reason a 33 degree pure scandi edge would be "bad." And I'm not saying the grind is generally bad for woodworking. The primary grind on a scandi does act like the shoe of a plane. This is good and bad. Mostly bad, IMO, for a woodworking knife. But that's because I don't reach for a knife when I want to make a piece of wood flat. I use the tip or belly of a knife for cutting just little bits of endgrain, or deburring, or for enlarging slots. And in this case, you don't need a plane. That would be like trying to use a large bench plane to smooth out a small defect in a table top. Unless you want to resurface the entire thing, you will find a small hand plane way better for this task. When used right, you can get the small hand plane in and out of the area you are fixing.
I have used a Mora #2 on my woodworking bench for years, and I noticed that the edge rolled and even chipped many times, through no undue abuse. Now, the knife did everything it was supposed to, but it wasn't as sharp as I would have liked every time I picked it up, because it was slow to sharpen and especially hard to remove the dings and chips. Also, for spreading wood glue, a nice full flat or slight convex is way better.
The "consistent sharpening angle" of a scandi is nice if you are a perfectionist. But it has no practical value in and of itself. What makes a knife sharp is a pure edge without defects. The actual angle across that final bevel doesn't hardly matter at all, as long as it's in the right range. That bevel can be perfect, or it can be rounded/convexed, or anything between.
There's a reason the Work Sharp has two angles, of which 30 degrees is the minimum. And 40 degrees is what you are supposed to actually put on the very edge. A 24 degree edge on a woodworking tool is a pipe dream.
Woodworkers who don't use microbevels are woodworkers who like to frequently use their power sharpeners and/or jigs, and they're still using angles of around 30+. Some experienced woodworkers put a small microbevel even on the FLAT side of their chisels.
Sam Cade
Member
Whoa, slow your roll bro.
The problem with making broad generalizations like that they can sometimes be so wrong as to warp the very substance of reality and threaten to tear asunder the p-branes like a post-Crucifixion temple veil. So don't be jackin' up the extendons savvy?
They also make the statements that follow drop in value faster than the Papiermark.
The true bushcrafters developed skills out of two evolutionary factors. Suvival and laziness. They took what was most easily available, and they learned how to survive with what they had. They wouldn't care about this discussion at all, cuz w/e knife they have at their side is their "bushcrafting knife."
Modern American "bushcrafting" is more about buying the latest and greatest gear to go on a camping trip.
No offense to the true bushcrafters. But they aren't reading this, anyway. They don't have the internet.
Modern American "bushcrafting" is more about buying the latest and greatest gear to go on a camping trip.
No offense to the true bushcrafters. But they aren't reading this, anyway. They don't have the internet.
"First off, the bushcrafting crowd has nothing to add to the discussion. Bushcrafters are people that like knives and occasionally go outdoors. That's about it. Most people who like knives don't even know how to sharpen them."
I'm afraid this may very well include me. I certainly like my knives, but maybe I don't know how to properly sharpen them. I've nearly had to wing edges and firearms on my own.
I've become lost with words such as strop/ping.
I just use my Lansky knife sharpener:
http://lansky.com/index.php/products/universal-system/
I'm afraid this may very well include me. I certainly like my knives, but maybe I don't know how to properly sharpen them. I've nearly had to wing edges and firearms on my own.
I've become lost with words such as strop/ping.
I just use my Lansky knife sharpener:
http://lansky.com/index.php/products/universal-system/
Sam Cade
Member
Y'know, that is pretty much the exact opposite of what most folks consider "Bushcrafting" to mean. Bushcrafting is software, not hardware.
I'm not sure where you are pulling your data from but it doesn't seem to be from the same reference copy as the rest of us.
I figure I understand what's he's saying in that there are those who have grown up this way in that it's a part of them, and then there's those who think it sounds cool and maybe know someone who's an "outdoorsman" who they fancy and would like to emulate.
Some of us buy our gear because a magazine or TV show says it's great and works well. I bought into that with firearms until I became interested in black powder arms and learned that the physics behind what they say works doesn't really hold much water.
I'm by far not one who's had to live it like someone up in AK, and I'm not even one who's put myself out there where it could be used, but I'd certainly like to be somewhat capable.
I haven't been in the mountains since I was a kid back in elementary school, but it still holds my fancy, and as much as I love backpacking/camping, it's something I intend on doing.
The biggest part for me is that I'll finally be moving out of Texas and into some place that doesn't have the same hunting conditions where you have a lease and hunt from a bling. Instead you'll need to go way out and find a good place on some public land, and likely have to backpack in and out.
And so it's the prospects of being in some awesome backpacking country, as well as prime hunting conditions that has me thinking I ought to consider a little ahead of time and get a little more prepared. I still have more to consider besides a knife...
Some of us buy our gear because a magazine or TV show says it's great and works well. I bought into that with firearms until I became interested in black powder arms and learned that the physics behind what they say works doesn't really hold much water.
I'm by far not one who's had to live it like someone up in AK, and I'm not even one who's put myself out there where it could be used, but I'd certainly like to be somewhat capable.
I haven't been in the mountains since I was a kid back in elementary school, but it still holds my fancy, and as much as I love backpacking/camping, it's something I intend on doing.
The biggest part for me is that I'll finally be moving out of Texas and into some place that doesn't have the same hunting conditions where you have a lease and hunt from a bling. Instead you'll need to go way out and find a good place on some public land, and likely have to backpack in and out.
And so it's the prospects of being in some awesome backpacking country, as well as prime hunting conditions that has me thinking I ought to consider a little ahead of time and get a little more prepared. I still have more to consider besides a knife...
Really?
Hmmm, I'd better snail-mail Mors Kochanski and tell him to stop putting vids on Youtube and releasing e-books.
Sam Cade
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BXKHRzn_yE
From his own words, Mors relied on flat and hollow ground folding knives for nearly his entire life. And he is pretty old.
Even the scandi ground Skookum that he uses in his current school was designed by someone else and doesn't necessarily look much like what he had in mind. He doesn't seem very picky at all, having used various knives he found for cheap in hardware stores. He comments that the main benefit of the Skookum over the other knives is that it makes a better prybar.
Suggesting that bushcrafters prefer scandi means nothing at all. It's just a recent marketing push that has caught on with the herd. There might be a famous guy here or there that has mentioned scandi for various reasons, but that guy is famous for his charisma in front of a camera and ambition to be rich and famous, for sure. Whether he is a true knife nerd that has played with various grinds, you don't know that. (I do, and the answer is no.)
Here's one of those guys showing you how to sharpen a scandi knife in the field... using nothing but 10 pounds of Japanese water stones. And don't forget to polish off that patina. What did I say about scandi grinds and perfectionists?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm53mCOQTR8
From his own words, Mors relied on flat and hollow ground folding knives for nearly his entire life. And he is pretty old.
Even the scandi ground Skookum that he uses in his current school was designed by someone else and doesn't necessarily look much like what he had in mind. He doesn't seem very picky at all, having used various knives he found for cheap in hardware stores. He comments that the main benefit of the Skookum over the other knives is that it makes a better prybar.
Suggesting that bushcrafters prefer scandi means nothing at all. It's just a recent marketing push that has caught on with the herd. There might be a famous guy here or there that has mentioned scandi for various reasons, but that guy is famous for his charisma in front of a camera and ambition to be rich and famous, for sure. Whether he is a true knife nerd that has played with various grinds, you don't know that. (I do, and the answer is no.)
Here's one of those guys showing you how to sharpen a scandi knife in the field... using nothing but 10 pounds of Japanese water stones. And don't forget to polish off that patina. What did I say about scandi grinds and perfectionists?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm53mCOQTR8
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Sam Cade
Member
The herd of... Sami reindeer hunters? Scandinavian craftsmen and sportsmen?GLOOB said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I'm referring to the original bushcraft comment I was originally responding to, which brought on your wrath. In this context, I'm referring to the herd of middle class Americans playing Rambo. There are lots of craftsmen and sportsmen in the world, and scandi grind was not popular anywhere else, even though it's the most primitive, basic way to grind a knife. Does that make you wonder?
Today, it still is the most primitive, fast, and cheapest way to grind a knife from bar stock. Does that make you wonder why it's gaining popularity, now? If each of Ray Mear's knives costs 10 cents less to grind, that adds up.
Morakniv made the scandi grind world famous. They did this by selling really nicely sharpened knives for cheap. Anyone who has never been able to sharpen a knife might pick up a $10.00 Mora and think there must be something special about the grind or the steel. But there is not.
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T.R.
Member
BUCK model 119 is also named the Special. This is a terrific knife made with 420 high carbon steel that is tempered to hold an edge quite well indeed. BUCK knives are made in USA.
BUCK model 105 is also named the Pathfinder. This is another great choice for outdoorsmen.
TR
BUCK model 105 is also named the Pathfinder. This is another great choice for outdoorsmen.
TR
Zeke/PA
Member
Check out the K-Bar offerings at Smokey Mountain. Good rugged knives priced sensibly. The KA 1248 Cutlass looks very interesting.
Rodwa... take a look at the Cold Steel Bushman. I was given one about 10 years ago and at first I never thought much of it and just kept it in my Jeep as a camp chore type knife.
After using it a few times I really started to like it. Now when I go canoeing or camping it is allways in the canoe or pack. I seldom carry it on my belt, I have a Blackjack Model 16 for that.
The price is super cheap, around $25 I think, but the steel and heat treat are very good, at least on mine.
Basicaly I substituted my little Estwing hatchet with the Bushman.
After using it a few times I really started to like it. Now when I go canoeing or camping it is allways in the canoe or pack. I seldom carry it on my belt, I have a Blackjack Model 16 for that.
The price is super cheap, around $25 I think, but the steel and heat treat are very good, at least on mine.
Basicaly I substituted my little Estwing hatchet with the Bushman.
Cold Steel was the first thing to come to mind, but I don't know how well they stack up against others.
The Estwing hatchet is the one I have. I like it's single piece construction, and noticed it was on a list for best hatchets.
The Estwing hatchet is the one I have. I like it's single piece construction, and noticed it was on a list for best hatchets.
Time to end the arguments and get back on topic.
This is not my picture, but I have this exact knife and I've been using it as my main backpacking knife for a few years. I own a bunch of knives and this probably sees the most use, outside of my EDC knife.
Ontario Tak-1
This is not my picture, but I have this exact knife and I've been using it as my main backpacking knife for a few years. I own a bunch of knives and this probably sees the most use, outside of my EDC knife.
Ontario Tak-1
heavydluxe
Member
Great thread... As a noob, I'd appreciate a link somewhere along the way to a good resource on the grinds and their merits.
lobo9er
Member
not to pile on gloob but the hype is true and while all things are debatable theres an awful lot of mora fans. I dont think factory sharpness is the big plus side to mora's its the quality steel. For a user factory sharpness disappears on all knives.
Sam Cade
Member
Lansky has a quick overview with commentary on common grind types.
http://lansky.com/index.php/blog/knife-edge-grinds-and-uses/
Don't hesitate to start a thread for discussion on anything in particular that interests you.
Starting threads is a good thing and keeps the forum alive.
http://lansky.com/index.php/blog/knife-edge-grinds-and-uses/
Don't hesitate to start a thread for discussion on anything in particular that interests you.
Starting threads is a good thing and keeps the forum alive.
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