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Alternate self defense weapons ?

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by BADUNAME30, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. lobo9er

    lobo9er Well-Known Member

    Buy some bear spray or pepper spray, if you want to spray something.
  2. Bikewer

    Bikewer Well-Known Member

    From my standpoint as a police officer...

    I've had uniformly good results over the years with pepper spray. The stuff is effective, usually legal, and has minimum legal consequences for the user.
    Some will say that you can "fight through" the effects, but that's not a concern for most civilians; all you want is for the bad guy to be subdued or disabled long enough to get away.
    It's we police that have to continue to 'rassle with the guy and get him cuffed and all.

    Impact weapons... Legally you had better be justified. Introducing a weapon into an altercation raises the legal stakes. Hitting in the head, breaking bones...These things can be legally considered to be "lethal force".
    "lethal force" is a legal term; it refers to force "likely to cause death or serious injury". "Serious injury" includes things like broken bones, concussions, etc.

    So... Unless lethal force is justified, whacking someone with a big heavy flashlight could get you into serious trouble. Same with nearly any impact weapon.
    The controlled used of an impact weapon, directed to areas likely to cause non-disabling effects (like those listed in the popular-with-police PPCT system) would likely carry less liability... But you had best be able to articulate your training and level of expertise.

    Stun guns? Pain-compliance device that only works while it's in contact with the individual. It hurts. No knockout, no disabling effect. Likely to seriously annoy a more serious attacker.

    Taser? The civilian version may or may not be legal depending on your location.
    They are a one-shot weapon. Also very expensive.....
    If it works, you're good. Bad guy falls down and twitches helplessly for 30 seconds or so, allowing you to get away.
    However... If one dart misses, or there's two attackers, or it's Winter and he has a heavy coat.... Not so much. Our department has had a spotty record with the things. Malfunctions, darts fell out when the BG fell down, missed with one dart....
    I wouldn't buy one.

    BADUNAME30 Well-Known Member

    You couldn't be more wrong Tirod.
    Let me 1st say that this incident occurd because in a busy gas station, this fella attempted to come into the pumps from the wrong direction and 'jump' in without getting in line and waiting his turn. I was more than 95% into place taking my turn and he thot that he could bully his way in and expected me to cowar and allow him to do so.All i did was ignore him and take my turn. He imediately when BALISTIC on me.
    ALL i did was calmly go about my business and continue to ignore him. I fed into nothing he did or said.( i did briefly concider soaking him in gas but very quickly equated that to be a foolish idea ). I also prayed that using my gun would not have to take place.
    He had me boxed completely in between my car, my wife's open car door and the gas pump. I had no where ot retreat to.
    When i finished and hung the gas nozzel back up he was still inches from my face SCREAMING .." i am going to kill you ". But he had not once raised a hand.
    Finaly, since i was boxed in i very calmly looked him in the eyes and said..." ok, here i am, what are you gonna do ? "
    He imediately cowered away.

    What part of this decribes a " monkey dance " ? And, exactly what is a "monkey dance" ?

    With all due respect Tirod. If you are smellin testosterone. It's your own.
    I simply attempted to describe my incident as simply as i could without going into great detail. And, ask about alternative means of self defense that do not result in major injury to an assailant. I am very good at keeping my head and reading peoples' actions and manerisms and i assure you that very last thing that i want to ever do is take someones life or do them serious bodliy harm.
    There are fellas out there that just wanna give someone a good ole punch and maybe go fist to cuffs with ya and leave it at that. Too many folks now adays think that everyone wants to kill 'em just because they wanna fight ya.
    I'm not strong enough to go a fist fight but i won't allow myself to be beaten nor am i gonna wanna kill someone just for hitting me no matter who is at fault.
    Hope i've made myself clear to you.
  4. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Well, almost anything's possible. The first time I took a shot of OC, I could have put up a good fight for maybe 30 seconds. The second time...it was bad. I did in fact fight, but could not see at all. And the effects lasted for over 12 hours. I had agreed to do some volunteer work in DC the next day, and was on the verge of throwing up for the first few hours.

    Jim, you're the only one that was there. While I do understand the desirability of de-escalating whenever reasonably possible, it is also true that someone who "boxes you in" has automatically upped the ante by denying you the ability to retreat.

  5. Deltaboy

    Deltaboy Well-Known Member

    Cane ,pepper spray, c-cell mag lite, good lock back knife.
  6. Sol

    Sol Well-Known Member

    True story; one time I was eating raw habaneros (I like the rush) and one of my "friends" knocked on the door. I answer the door and my "friend" was drunk, delusional drunk to be exact. So this drunken oaf, wavering at my doorstep slurring about some sort of hallucination of me wronging him or something. Whatever I pay no mind and tell the guy go home and sleep it off. Well, telling a drunk "what to do" is a no no I guess, and the guy starts yelling at me in my doorway. At this point I have a sweaty, stinking drunk screaming in my face, well into my personal bubble. Seeing as I don't like the presence of law enforcement I figured I had to get this guy to leave. I had a bottle of water with me so I took a nice swig and swishes in my mouth. I spat it right in his eyes and face. It took a second or two, but the pepper saliva water kicked in and all of a sudden this guy is screaming in pain and ran off. The cops found him rolling around in someones lawn a few blocks away and into the drunk tank with him.

    That was low road but a lesson in alternative weaponry.
  7. plateshooter

    plateshooter Well-Known Member

    In days gone by, I was working as a service tech and had to go into some pretty nasty areas. Carrying a gun was forbidden a knife would get you arrested if caught, and either would get you fired at the least.

    I found a 6 or 8oz ball peen hammer to be my friend. Fits easily tucked in the belt. The ball end works great as a muscle dysfunction tool, the side of the head is a great slapper on pressure points, and the face is good for breaking toes or ankles should you end up on the ground.

    I have taken several styles of martial arts in my younger years and the hammer can be adapted in any one of them from my experience.

    If you can't carry anything else, it is a pretty good option IMO.
  8. JimStC

    JimStC Well-Known Member

    Today my Escrima teacher introduced me to palm sticks. These are 12" versions of the traditional fighting sticks. We used them to defend against knife attacks, fist blows and stick attacks. I was very comfortable with the palm sticks since I have been training with the traditional weapons (sticks, knives and hands) for six months. The appealing characteristic of the palm sticks is that you are able to limit the injury to the attacker by the placement of the blows (forehead vs bicep, temple vs hand). Obviously training and proficiency are critical since the blocking, trapping and offensive techniques are not immediately obvious.
    We also used the palm sticks to effectuate arm locks, shoulder locks and take downs. It is a very effective tool with proper training.
    Just thought I'd share this since it seemed somewhat coincidental that I was introduced to this small weapon that could be carried in my coat pocket or back pants pocket today.

  9. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator

    ^ A rolled up magazine is a good innocent looking alternative, with proper training, of course. :)
  10. JimStC

    JimStC Well-Known Member

    Rolled up tightly, absolutely right! What a great idea. Thanks.

  11. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Good point

    I don't often mention this because it just doesn't come to mind

    Take a look at this video clip at the 3:10 point

    ...or a more practical explanation of Honda Korosu
  12. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

    Do you have an example of this happening? :scrutiny:
  13. conw

    conw Well-Known Member

    I have to say I found the second video ridiculous, at least the demonstrations.
  14. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    If you are talking about the Ron Duncan video, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but Ron is the real deal. He was a US Marine and held Black Belts (before you just bought them) in Hakko Ryu Jujitsu, Dai-nippon Jujitsu Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, Kin Dai Gakko Ryu, Aikido, Aiki-Jujitsu, Kempo, Kobujitsu and Shinobino-jitsu. He is also known as the Father of American Ninjitsu

    He was a recognized master of martial arts weapon and I've known about him since the 70s. He was once on television's Thrill Seekers and the Wide World of Sports catching live arrows in flight
  15. BADUNAME30

    BADUNAME30 Well-Known Member

    Thanx John. I never, until now, gave any thot to how you describe being boxed in as minimizing an escape route. Good point.
    I did initialy give thot to stepping out to the rear of my car when i saw him approach,but imediately thot to myself that if i do i will automaticaly escalate his already evident rage.
    He could have read that , as i think a poster here called, "chest thumping", and therefore put him on the spot as being challenged.
  16. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Sorry, Tang. Neither Duncan nor his uke move like kobudo practitioners- they move like karateka.

    This doesn't change the effectiveness of a rolled paper or magazine, but Duncan was a fraud- at least, when he claimed to be teaching one of Japan's oldest martial arts. I'lll give an example of a real kobudo teacher with a real heritage demonstrating a genuine historical art:

  17. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    I defer to your expertise..I didn't realize he'd been exposed as a fraud

    Just as well that I didn't follow my first impulse and refer to Daniel Trevanian's Nicholas Hel from Shibumi ;) (like the book, this is satire)
  18. lobo9er

    lobo9er Well-Known Member

    in my early 20's i sprayed my friend in the face with pepper spray. I wouldn't trust it. It may help you escape. Thats the best review on pepper spray I can give.
  19. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Well-Known Member

    When I can't carry a knife, which is about never, I have a 9/32" t-handle Allen wrench cut back to about 3". The handle fills my grip perfectly, and 3" of hardened steel protruding from between my knuckles would hurt considerably if directed into soft tissue.

    As a mechanic, I have all sorts of tools around me that could serve as weapons. The Allen wrench is something strong, lightweight, and fits nicely into my back pocket.
  20. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Well-Known Member

    An interesting question.

    First of all, circumstances dictate both the optimum choice in weapons, both from an ideal perspective and from a practical perspective.

    The "ideal" weapon, of any type, is usually hypothetical, however. Practically speaking, whatever you have at hand is the reality you have to deal with.

    You don't give us the details necessary to fully evaluate your circumstance. And, before you may post in response to this, I'm not asking for those details. I'm just posting this to clarify.

    For example, "my potential assailant was within inches of my face and aggressively threatening to take my life" would not indicate to me that pepper spray would be your best option. It's difficult to maintain control of a situation if you unload a stream of pepper spray into your assailant's face when it's only a couple inches away from your own. Arms length or better, under ventilation conditions which minimize your own changes of getting a face full are optimal for this.

    If what you are truely looking for is "non-lethal self defense", I would seriously recommend training in some form of martial arts. Martial arts focuses on many aspects that armed self-defense does...starting with situational awareness. It also teaches you both unarmed and armed forms, depending on your level of training and the types of martial arts you choose to pursue.

    The advantage of martial arts training is that it's ALWAYS with you, no matter where you go and no matter what you have on hand. Such training allows you a great variety of options with respect to weapons of opportunity, too.

    You do not have to be a total bad*ss in martial arts to make it count. Simply deflecting an attack, increasing the distance between you and an assailant, or executing a simple block, hold, throw, or other form of physical defense can give you an opening you need to either leave or incapacitate your attacker...with or without the use of deadly force as required.

    Human interactions in conflict are a balance of four instinctive behavioral patterns: fight, flight, posture, and submission. How you interpret these behavioral patterns (for both yourself and your attacker) determines the weight you give to each. The ultimate resulting in the application of deadly force.

    I applaud you for a variety of reasons...

    1. You do not wish to use deadly force unless it's absolutely unavoidable.

    2. You wish to increase your non-lethal options.

    3. You have the brains to look back on your encounter with an analytical mindset and an eye to improve your options for possible future encounters.

    Whatever you choose to do, choose wisely. And, God willing, I pray you never find yourself in such a situation again.

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