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An example from the UK that criminals do not follow gun control laws

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by thekomet, Jan 25, 2008.

  1. thekomet

    thekomet New Member

    Jun 17, 2007
    Found this article in the British newspaper Daily Mail. A man's home was broken into, his family threatened, and he decided to fight back. This is a perfect example that people who break the law by attempting to harm your family and steal your property do not have any problem with breaking the law that says you cannot own a pistol. I know this is obvious to us, but the anti gun rights people we know may benefit from this article. My favorite line from the article: " I have never used a weapon in my life and it was a great feeling."


    'I decided to die like a man', says tycoon who took on 'armed gang who threatened to kill his daughter'
    By JULIE MOULT - More by this author » Last updated at 10:11am on 24th January 2008
    Bernard Dwyer

    Hero: Brave Bernard Dwyer was left with serious injuries after he defended his family
    A millionaire yesterday told how he fought off three armed burglars who were holding a knife to his daughter's throat, saying he "would rather die like a man than a dog".

    Bernard Dwyer, 51, was convinced he and his family were about to be killed so he chose to take on the men - hours after they had allegedly killed a restaurant owner, a court heard.

    Mr Dwyer came to his 13-year-old daughter Aisling's rescue after hearing her piercing screams for help, the Old Bailey was told.

    Despite being threatened with a gun, stabbed three times in the head and beaten unconscious with a knuckle-duster, Mr Dwyer fought back as one of his attackers screamed "kill the b******".

    He managed to wrestle a gun from one of the masked raiders and chased them from his luxury home in Uxbridge, West London, in November 2006, the jury heard.

    Yesterday, Irish-raised Mr Dwyer, a construction boss, faced two of the three men accused of the burglary.

    Brothers Michael and Dean Atkins are also on trial for the murder of restaurant owner Helen Chung, 65, the day before the break-in.

    A third man, Joseph Carty, committed suicide in his cell last year while on remand for both offences.

    The court heard Mr Dwyer, Aisling, now 14, and his son Danny, 19, were asleep when three men burst in.

    He said: "I heard people running up the stairs and Aisling screaming 'Dad'. I had never heard screaming like that before. I knew something was clearly wrong."

    Mr Dwyer said he jumped from his bed and ran towards Aisling's room but was confronted at the doorway. "There were three guys coming towards me," he said.

    "All masked, all covered with balaclavas, gloves, padded out, forensically aware.

    "One man was holding a gun, waving it about, screaming menacingly."

    He said they attacked him after he agreed to show them where his safe was, one with a knuckle-duster.

    Mr Dwyer said: "I took quite a few blows at that point.

    "I have seen things on television and I have seen violent stuff but I have never seen this level of violence.

    "I was being compliant and they were smashing and bashing me."

    Mr Dwyer was knocked unconscious for a few minutes and when he came round one man was holding a knife to Aisling's throat and screaming: "I am going to cut your f****** daughter".

    Mr Dwyer said: "We were going to die anyway, that's what I thought. I thought, if I am going to die then I would rather die like a man than a dog."

    Mr Dwyer pushed the weapon away before striking the attacker.

    "I hit him several times, I hit him plenty. The man with the knuckleduster screamed 'He's fighting back the b******, kill the b******, he's fighting back.'"

    Mr Dwyer said he was stabbed three times in the head but managed to fight the raiders off and shut the bedroom door. But the men tried to push back in and they fought again, he said. "I have never used a weapon in my life and it was a great feeling.

    Helen Chung

    Fatally wounded: Helen Chung died after she was beaten by the three men

    "I grabbed the gun and bashed it across the knuckle-duster guy. Next thing is they took off and I chased them down the stairs."

    The raiders fled empty-handed, leaving Mr Dwyer with broken ribs and 30 cuts to his body and head.

    The court has heard the blood of Mr Dwyer and the restaurant owner were found on the gun at his home.

    Michael Atkins, 25, and Dean Atkins, 26, both of no fixed address, deny murder, two counts of aggravated burglary, wounding with intent and possession of an imitation firearm with intent.

    It is claimed the two also murdered Mrs Chung the previous night after she refused to reveal the hiding place of her £218,000 life savings when they broke into her home.

    The court has heard the blood of both the businessman and the restaurant owner were found on the gun when it recovered from Mr Dwyer's home.

    A DNA sample matching Joseph Carty, 21, - who later hanged himself in his cell at Belmarsh prison last February - was also discovered on the handle and on swabs taken from the face of Mrs Chung.

    Dean Atkins had escaped from Stanford Open Prison in on the Isle of Sheppey, Kent, just two days before the attack in Cowley, west London, on November 5, 2006. He was allegedly picked up by his brother and Carty.

    Kam Fum Chung, known by all as Helen, was grabbed as she returned home at Meadow View, Cowley, after finishing work at the Chinese Mandarin restaurant in West Drayton.

    Within minutes of arriving home she was repeatedly kicked and stamped and died from multiple fractures to her skull, face, neck and ribs.

    Michael Atkins was arrested six weeks after the attack on December 21 in the Southwick area of Brighton, East Sussex.

    Dean Atkins was arrested in the early hours of November 18, 2006, when a car was stopped in the area of Langley, Berkshire, near West Drayton, west London.

    The trial continues.
  2. TargetTerror

    TargetTerror Member

    Feb 12, 2007
    Stalingrad, MA
    I saw that article too. I still don't understand why nobody actually FIRED the gun? If the BGs really wanted him dead, why didn't they shoot him? And once Dwyer grabbed control of the gun, why didn't he shoot them?
  3. Zoogster

    Zoogster Senior Member

    Oct 27, 2006
    Because of this:
    Actualy this is a victory for the anti crowd.
    The firearm was an imitation firearm. Most of the antis do not claim criminals would not still be criminals or be armed with other weapons. The logic is that if there is no legal owners, there will be less firearms available for criminals to steal. These criminals didn't have a firearm.
    With the anti logic that is a win. A single man was able to fight off 3 younger men at least two of whom were armed with a knife and a knuckle duster (and maybe the imitation gun if used as a melee weapon and was metal.) That proves nobody needs a firearm to protect themselves or thier family even when at a numerical disadvantage facing younger healthier individuals. Lets just pretend the woman beaten to death just prior to the home invasion didn't happen, because according to the anti logic if firearms were widespread she would have just been shot anyways.

    That the upper hand often goes to the criminals armed with melee weapons vs the lone man/woman or small family is considered unimportant. That they beat a woman to death who had no option of a firearm available to her prior is unimportant. Less gun violence was commited because less guns were available.

    There will also be many criminals with firearms regardless of the law in addition, however there will be fewer firearms total. If several million law abiding people have no legal way to defend themselves with a firearm, but a fraction of violent criminals cannot get ahold of one as a result of millions of disarmed then that is also seen as a win.

    England is a relatively small nation, and an island. That means they should have an easier time controlling things than most nations. Yet some criminals still have firearms. These however were not some of those criminals.
  4. Cliff47

    Cliff47 Active Member

    Jul 22, 2003
    Washington State
    The Atkins brothers sound like real pieces of work, candidates for removal from the gene pool. I'm waiting for the court to find Mr Dwyer guilty of defending himself.
  5. Zoogster

    Zoogster Senior Member

    Oct 27, 2006
    Well he did chase them out of his house rather than letting them run downstairs and maybe leave, or maybe regroup and come back up. He could have just stayed upstairs, so by British logic he could be seen as guilty of offensive criminal actions. Running after men with a weapon is not self defense. He was taking the law into his own hands, and that kind of vigilante action must be punished. :rolleyes:
  6. Werewolf

    Werewolf Senior Member

    Sep 12, 2003
    What the HELL! He was doing exactly what police and the anti crowd tell people to do so that JUST isn't possible. Surely the man is lying.

    No way would those poor misunderstood men just trying to make a living smash and bash those they are only trying to help by relieving them of stuff they obviously have an excess of and don't need.

    KUDOS to the Gent for fighting back. Too bad his government doesn't allow him the means to do it right.
  7. TallPine

    TallPine Mentor

    Dec 26, 2002
    somewhere in the middle of Montana
    Can you imagine your children screaming to you for help like that, and not having the means to defend them? :uhoh:
  8. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Mentor

    Oct 10, 2006
    Deep in the valley
    So much for "don't fight, just give them what they want".
  9. 3/325

    3/325 New Member

    Dec 29, 2007
    For all those who foolishly advocate "taking a beating" rather than using a firearm in self-defense.
  10. biscuitninja

    biscuitninja Member

    Sep 28, 2007
    Wow, doesn't anybody keep a nice big ol' piece of wood to bash away. A old friend of mine was an SCA (Society for Creative Anachronists) fighter. A guy broke in, in one hand she had a phone, in the other she had a rattan mace she beat the guy silly with....

    I wonder what the guys will do now? What other form of protection will he use?
  11. BobbyQuickdraw

    BobbyQuickdraw Member

    Nov 28, 2007
    Imitation Firearms are illegal in the UK too. They are banned. So the point stands that banning something doesn't mean it will disappear.
  12. RP88

    RP88 Senior Member

    Jan 1, 2008
    at-home burgularies like that happen nearly 5 times more in England than they do here in the US. Gee, I wonder why...
  13. Focke-Wolf

    Focke-Wolf New Member

    Mar 9, 2008
    You may be suprised, but handguns, semi-auto rifles in Isle of Man, famous for MANX TT motorcycle race are still legal and I heard CCW is may issue there.

    Isle of man is a crown dependancy, so strictly speaking, it's not 'England'. But the laws they have, is like that not because they have enacted new laws, but because they refused new gun laws that were enacted, which they have the right to do so.

    Here's something to consider though. Contrary to popular belief, the handgun for carry has been way way illegal since 1957. Since, it all had to be kept in seperate lock etc. etc.

    So do not bother using 1997 ban as an failure. But I do know that until 60s, England was very very peaceful place. Everyone could go after criminals as they had duty to do so, the law for self-defense was 'necessary force'.

    If you need something to support 'those massacres would happen even if it's illegal' is Hungerford Massacre in 1988. While all the firearms that were used to commit the horrible act was semi-auto rifles, He also had two full-auto guns at the scene of crime that were way way illegal. And these weren't 'modified' either. There were off the shelf-sourced-off-from-illegal-source gun.

    BTW I'm not from England, but been researching gun laws around the world to enact RKBA in South Korea, the country that needs it more than most.
  14. Nebor

    Nebor New Member

    Sep 26, 2007
    The Isle of Man also allows full auto ownership with proper licensing from the police.
  15. Focke-Wolf

    Focke-Wolf New Member

    Mar 9, 2008
    I heard you need to get permission from secretary of the state for full-auto, but I'm not sure if it refers to the Isle of Man police chief or in UK.

    Interestingly enough though, I heard burst-fire weapons can be had with the firearms license that covers semi-auto as well.
  16. woodybrighton

    woodybrighton member

    Sep 15, 2007
    3 round burst weapons were legal a long long time ago remember wasting an afternoon and a shed load of ammo with a berrata.
    but there illegal as hell now :(
    both Hamilton and Ryan were nutters who if the police had actually applied the laws as they stood would have been hard pressed to own a pencil sharpener:(
  17. matt87

    matt87 Member

    May 23, 2007
    Exeter, (formerly) Great Britiain
    Concealed carry is not technically always illegal over here, just very rarely permitted. When the '97 handgun bans came in, 98% of handgun owners had them stolen. After that (and to theis day) we serfs must show a 'genuine need' to posess them. Defense is one, though it must be demonstrated that there is a genuine, specific danger to you (as well as contepency etc.). The Home Secretary (Secretary of State) has to sign the piece of paper though. (Currently Jaqui Smith, an antigun, Party-line-toeing, contemptable Socialist.)
  18. Focke-Wolf

    Focke-Wolf New Member

    Mar 9, 2008
    I heard some ex-three letter types having them.

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