Any anti forums out there?

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Or you make a case that there are no "rights", there is only power: the power to compel and the power to resist. We have the "rights" of free speech and firearms, etc. only when these things are not taken away from us by government using their power to compel, and when our power to resist is strong enough to keep the "rights." It is human nature to always want more than one has, whether that is material possessions or power, and it is human nature to have the willingness to use violence in obtaining what we want, and in protecting what we have. Ain't no such thing as "inalienable rights."

Back on topic: I have been on DU a couple of times, and while there is plenty of the "don't confuse me with the facts" mindset, I have also been amazed how many rational people were there. They were all arguing OUR side, of course.
 
I knew I would get some good responses to the question asked.

Mark: "The right to bear arms is a core human and civil right."

Is that written somewhere and by whom? Is this quote an opinion or factual in nature?

Devonai: I'll stand by, but I thnk it will be hard for anyone attempting to put guns into the equation where God is concerned, they were not around back then, how would they have been mentioned specifically?

The founding fathers held certain truths to be self evident if I'm not mistaken and wrote thus into the constitution. Now, as mortals, they had opinions based on their beliefs and wrote these thoughts into a document.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with their actions or their thought process but instead am attempting to determine if these inalienable rights/core rights/god given rights were set forth by God somewhere or whether mere mortals took up the cause and wrote their thoughts into a document.

If it actually turns out that mortals wrote their thoughts of what should be "god given rights" then I should expect the ultra hardy proponents of the 2a who state these things may need to rethink their comments about the rights in question.

Too many 2a proponents use these terms in defining their idea of fair play for humanity. I'm just wondering if they have any evidence to support that position or whether they are reciting what the founding fathers of America wrote due to their beliefs [ which mortals tend to do ocassionally ].

Brownie
 
I've been arguing with the antis over on IMDB's "Bowling for Columbine" forum ever since Moore shut down his forum. By the time he did, we had almost completely taken over the "BFC" portion of it :D We were even having discussions about various kinds of firearms. Drove the antis bonkers.

I have run across a fair number of conservatives who are anti-gun. It shouldn't be a surprise. Traditional conservatives, esp. of a certain persuasion, tend to see nothing wrong with governmental bans on drugs, booze, and firearms.

In fact, I find that I have a lot in common with liberals, and enjoy their confusion when I go to their LEFT. If they complain about the war in Iraq, I will simply suggest that we agree that the world's governments clearly cannot handle their firearms responsibly and should be disarmed for the greater good.
 
I don't like liberals. Sorry, I don't have to like liberals. When you live in a state full of the idiots, you will dislike liberals too. When you can no longer buy an AR-15, you can't get a CCW permit, you can't eat horsemeat if you want, no more lawful trapping of varmints, and they raise your car registration by three times, you too will get fed up with the moronic liberal mindset. All stupid liberals come to California. You will fester and breed here unlike any other habitat in the country.

If you take offense to my opposition to your tax and spend attitude, your insisting on regulating any and all aspects and of life, and your careless disregard for the life of unborn children, then you have a problem. I have a right to feel the way I want. I have a right to oppose your liberal agenda. You have a right to do what you do too. However, I still think liberals are the enemy and they ruin all that is good in life. We can debate anything you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the liberal mindset is wrong. How can I be so close minded to think such a thing? It is called morals, integrity, and consistency. I don't have to bend to the wrong ideas of others.

Example, I believe homosexual relationships are a sin. I think they are wrong. I won't encourage any one to participate in those activities. However, I don't see why people can't make their own choice when it comes to that decision. We were given free will. If homosexuals want to live a life of sin, it is no different than the porn industry, alcohol, or adultery. We don't try to abolish those things, it won't work. So I will tell you that I believe those things are wrong. However, if you still want to participate, it is your right.

Yet liberals try to tell us that what they think is wrong should be regulated and abolished. They encourage all of these ideas through "openness" and for the safety of the populous. They want to give all of the decision process to the government and live "safe" little lives. When you think about it, it all comes down to a socialist/communist state. They think that life can be perfect or that peace can be achieved. Yet, it will never work. Yet they try and try and try.

So yeah, I don't like liberals. They ruin my day. That doesn't mean I hate them. Everyone has the opportunity to accept salvation or to change. And it is my job to try and influence that. I do know it won't happen on any of the liberal message boards. I have been to www.msmagazine.com . They are as close minded as they come. The key is to influence the apathetic and lost people at work, at the gym, or where ever else you run into people that are not in the same mindset as you. Those are the people that can change. Those are the people we need to work on. The people on discussion boards are often pretty convinced their way works best. If they come here, they are willing to listen. If you go there, you must be willing to listen to their ideas. Otherwise it isn't going to happen.
 
Encouragement of defection from the enemy ranks is usually the best policy. As far as specific issues go, there's hardly a party that fully covers the stances of most people...but, in general, the degree of "live and let live" sentiment coincides with my opinion of the people adhering to a particular political view.
 
Brownie,

I don't like contributing to thread veer, so I'd suggest you start a fresh thread on the subject of rights.

Meanwhile, see my post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=237642#post237642 for my explanation of what the word "rights" means and why people use "God-given" when talking about it.

pax

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... -- the Declaration of Independence
 
Liberal checking in

:neener:

The amount of closed-minded virulent hatred I see for "liberals" in various gun forums is discouraging and appalling. Just yesterday I had my car slightly vandalized in a gun club parking lot -- somebody pried off my Darwin fish -- so I'm perhaps a bit more emotionally involved in the issue today than yesterday.

There's a reason that liberal attitudes correlate pretty well with education. The current American brand of "conservatism" (which is actually a radical reactionary position) is largely the product of lies and ignorance.

I also find gun owners have a stronger-than-usual tendency to be really mean when speaking about people not present, that they wouldn't be mean to to their face. So I make a special point of making my presence and beliefs known.

Speaking of Democrats and politics, notice that Howard Dean, one of the two front-runners for the nomination for 1994 right now, is not running on an anti-gun platform. (And remember he'll be running against Bush, who has promised to sign the AWB extension if it reaches him; his pro-gun credentials are not good.)
 
dd-b has hosted www.a-human-right.com since its inception. Some liberals are on our side by their deeds. Then again, he introduced me to the concept of liberarianism, so maybe "liberal" is as inexact a label as we suspected.
 
Pax:

Read the link, very interesting indeed. Some very good points made on both sides of the issue on that thread.

I'm impressed and pleased to see the thought processes going on there.

Thanks for the link.

Don't think I need top start another thread on rights, that one seems to have done very well.

Brownie
 
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