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Arguments Needed Please

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by CB900F, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. CB900F

    CB900F Senior Member

    Feb 22, 2003

    Recently, on another website devoted to motorcycles, in the open forum section, an Australian posted a list. The list "proved" that a country with more firearms inevitably had a higher incidence of murder by firearm. In response, I went looking on-line for such lists, and found them. It appears that whether the criteria is murder by percentage of the population, or violent crime by percentage of the population, the USA is ranked much higher than countries such as Australia, Canada, and the U.K.

    I made the point that until and unless you know how the data was aquired and how it was processed such lists are junk, which didn't faze most of the members. It was pointed out that regardless of what list you came up with, the US ranks as a more dangerous enviroment than countries with tighter gun laws. The point he made was that international organizations looking to either move to, or establish themselves in, different countries will look at the violence index and tend, if possible, to avoid the more dangerous enviroments.

    I'm sure that the rate of violent crime in the U.K. has risen dramatically since they imposed their draconian anti-gun laws some years ago. I would not be surprised to learn that the same is true of Australia either. However, I cannot find any data on past twenty years rate of change of violence in reported countries. Or an effective argument against the data that's been presented. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

    Thanks, 900F
  2. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Mentor

    Jul 13, 2006
    Anchorage, AK
    Well, there's no real escaping the fact that guns will be used more often in crimes if there's more guns floating around. If no one owned a car, auto accidents and crimes involving cars would be a lot lower.

    That said, I think it's worth looking at the rate of gun crimes in the UK even with all their laws. I think a couple years ago ('08, '09 maybe) there were something like 3000 gun crimes in the London metro area despite generations of restrictive gun laws that preceded their total ban on handguns in the 90s.
  3. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Mentor

    Nov 30, 2008
    Frozen North
    Um, wait, did you find the list that listed 'violent crime'
    Not murders, and did you compare the numbers of murders NOT with firearms (I believe the US in much in line with overall totals that way/per capita)

    I, personally would just laugh at them, and tell them that you were going to enjoy your rights, and they could suck an egg, for all you care, about them giving theirs away

    Oh, and Aussie, ask him how he likes his plastic beer mug....
  4. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Mentor

    Feb 23, 2006
    It's tough to compare different countries, given different cultures. If you just look at the US however, you'll see that the places with the strictest gun laws (fewer guns) typically have the highest murder rates per capita and those with the most relaxed laws (more guns) are lowest.
  5. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Mentor

    Nov 30, 2008
    Frozen North
  6. Librarian

    Librarian Participating Member

    Oct 14, 2003
    Concord, CA
    You're quite correct; international comparisons have little value, because data collection methods differ, crime definitions differ, and what government agencies choose to publish is politically motivated.

    And in this case, figuring out how many firearms are around, such that one might infer some kind of causal relationship between firearm 'density' and firearm homicide, is also questionable.

    Statistics will never convince anyone to change positions.

    However, if you're sure you want to try, use WISQARS.

    WISQARS shows a 2007 firearms homicide rate of 4.19/100,000 - split by race, it was 2.21/100,000 white victims, 17.40/100,000 black victims.

    The non-firearm homicide rate was 1.90/100,000, split 1.45/100K white, 4.78/100K black.

    You might also point out that the gun stock in the United States has been uniformly increasing, while the firearms homicide rate goes up and down. If one 'caused' the other, the trends would be uniformly up for both, and they're not.

    1981 - 1998, United States
    Homicide Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
    All Races,
    Both Sexes,
    ICD-9 Codes: E965.0-.4
                   Number of                    Crude     Age-Adjusted
      Year            Deaths   Population***     Rate           Rate**
      1981            15,089     229,465,316     6.58             6.34
      1982            13,830     231,664,211     5.97             5.74
      1983            12,040     233,792,237     5.15             4.92
      1984            11,815     235,825,040     5.01             4.76
      1985            11,836     237,924,038     4.97             4.71
      1986            13,029     240,133,048     5.43             5.05
      1987            12,657     242,289,046     5.22             4.87
      1988            13,645     244,499,040     5.58             5.18
      1989            14,464     246,819,195     5.86             5.48
      1990            16,218     249,464,396     6.50             6.11
      1991            17,746     252,980,942     7.01             6.64
      1992            17,488     256,514,231     6.82             6.50
      1993            18,253     259,918,595     7.02             6.75
      1994            17,527     263,125,826     6.66             6.45
      1995            15,551     266,278,403     5.84             5.69
      1996            14,037     269,394,291     5.21             5.10
      1997            13,252     272,646,932     4.86             4.77
      1998            11,798     275,854,116     4.28             4.21
      1999            10,828     279,040,181     3.88             3.82
      2000            10,801     281,421,906     3.84             3.79
      2001            11,348     285,081,556     3.98             3.93
      2002            11,829     287,803,914     4.11             4.06
      2003            11,920     290,326,418     4.11             4.06
      2004            11,624     293,045,739     3.97             3.93
      2005            12,352     295,753,151     4.18             4.16
      2006            12,791     298,593,212     4.28             4.27
      2007            12,632     301,579,895     4.19             4.19
    See also guncite http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
  7. Onmilo

    Onmilo Mentor

    Jul 26, 2004
    There are far too many variables than to generalize such a complicated question.

    Finland has a high proportion of firearms ownership compared to population and the murder rate is quite low as does Switzerland.

    Indonesia has a small proportion of firearms in private circulation compared to population yet the murder rate is quite high.

    It does appear that when a people develop a taste for indiscriminate murder, they find a way to perpetrate the action regardless of the availability of firearms.
  8. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Senior Member

    Jul 8, 2006
    Norway has the highest rate of firearms owner ship in the world. How is there homicide rate doing? Also, the violent crime rate of the UK is remarkably higher than the US. Also, in the US if you factor OUT high crime areas where there are very strict gun control laws like DC, Baltimore, Chicago, LA, etc.........You will find the overall murder rate in the rest of the country is much lower, you know, where there is MORE legal gun ownership.
  9. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

    May 27, 2007
    You will find that countries with lower violent crime rates also have lower rates of rape but it is not because the men there are not "armed". I could give you some statistics proving why crime is very low in countries like Japan, Norway and Sweeden Vs. Detroit and Chicago but that might get this thread locked.
  10. heeler

    heeler Senior Member

    Dec 18, 2007
    As a motorcyclist for 43 years I have always been dumbfounded by the amount of other motorcyclists on motorcycle related forums who come across as anti gun even to the point of belittling someone who would even think of riding with and carrying a firearm or even riding many states away from home armed.
    And strangely enough I have gotten into some pretty good arguments with riders posting on predominately American motorcycle forums that were from the U.K.,Canada,New Zealand,and of course Australia.
    And those on forums the American riders that have the anti bent come a lot of the times from the Pacific Northwest and eastern seaborn states.
    Doubtful you can get the utterly brainwashed lemmings to ever see the light CB900F
  11. General Geoff

    General Geoff Mentor

    Nov 28, 2006
    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    Remember to differentiate between murders and deaths. About half of all firearm-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides.
  12. Old Guy

    Old Guy Active Member

    May 28, 2005
    As a 75 year old, who shoots IDPA, and does OK, normally in the top 10%.

    No illnesses, do not take pills (81% Aspirin, have a mate who is a Dr.)

    A little chubby, left Brit Royal Signals in 1956 at 210lbs, this morning, 209! lost a lb in 55 years? Not much of a diet Aye?

    On me now (dressing Gown) I Phone and a Glock 19, 16 rounds of Ranger T 127g +P+. When I leave the house tomorrow, same I phone, with a blue tooth ear piece, drive a lot, and of course, same Pistol, plus a spare G17 Magazine, and a sure fire flash light, very sharp folder.

    I lived in the UK till 1965, Aussy for three years, Canada for 35 years, here in Florida, 2003 till now, I know where I would sooner be, the ability to be armed all the time, in my estimation, is a good thing.

    Being aware of your surroundings, being ready to defend me and mine, at all times? Is a real good quality.
  13. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

    Sep 10, 2008
    SW Arizona
    A while back I was looking at some violent crime statistics courtesy of the FBI. In the statistics was state to state stats, and also stats that showed violent crime rates in states that restrcit guns, and those that don't. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe there was something like 33% lower violent crime per cap in non restrictive state's. I don't know if that helps you any, but it does show how violent crime trends are effected by gun laws. I thought this was a pretty good representation of how restrictive gun laws don't have a positive effect.
  14. Rotnguns

    Rotnguns New Member

    Mar 20, 2004
    In discussions like this, I have found that it is important to remove the focus from guns and draw a comparison between violent crime rates in general.
  15. JellyJar

    JellyJar Participating Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Consider this...If you would do the necessary research I bet that you would find that countries that have more per capita rates of motorcycle ownership have more per capita rates of motorcycle deaths.

    Why is it that people want to treat "gun deaths" as if such deaths are more serious and tragic than deaths caused by other means? That is what that stupid list the OP's friend in Australia is trying to say. Deaths by stabbings, poisoning or being beaten up are just not near as serious or tragic as shooting deaths, right?

    Horsehocky!!! :cuss:

    There are many countries that have much higher homicide rates than the US. Check out Venezuela and Columbia.

    What is most important is whether or not firearms are useful for self preservation. And the answer to that question is YES!

    The OP should tell his friend in Australia to do a Google search for Kleck, Gertz and guns. He would probably be surprised that several studies by these two gentlemen and others show that firearms are used in lawful self defense and lawful defense of others up to 2 million times a year in this country.

    Edit: I just found this:


    Australia and UK plus other "industrialised" countries have higher violent crime rates than US.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  16. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Mentor

    Nov 30, 2008
    Frozen North
    Ask him How he likes his beer
    in a Sippy cup or out of the can with a nipple on it

    Then remind him that you can relax at the bar with a tall frosty in a Glass Glass or mug...
    got to love those 'free' societies....
  17. CB900F

    CB900F Senior Member

    Feb 22, 2003

    Thank you very much for the replies. I do believe that I now have the basis to refute the argument.

  18. jiminhobesound

    jiminhobesound Member

    Jan 8, 2011
    Israel and gun ownership

    I did not see Israel cited regarding guns. Check demographics as stated in one of the posts. Consider how many lives have been saved because we can carry guns.
  19. DWC

    DWC New Member

    Dec 22, 2010
    Central Texas
  20. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Feb 16, 2003
    Ft. Worth
    This is one of these "statistics that say a lot without saying anything" and they are commonly used by antis as "proof" that guns are the problem.

    What you need to do is look at the OVERALL stats vs those with a gun.

    Great example that demonstrates this:

    When Brady was put in place originally there was a waiting period for handguns. The GUN suicide rate dropped dramatically during that time, leading anti's to jump for joy claiming things were fixed. However, during that same time period the OVERALL suicide rate stayed exactly the same, other methods were used.

    Guns are tools. For some things they are the handiest tool but lacking the availability of that tool humans are pretty good at finding other tools to use.

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