Armed airline pilots

[another okie]

This discussion shows you how true it is that if you ban something, in ten years people will forget it was ever legal. In twenty years people will deny it is possible or has ever been done.

Until the hijacking craze passengers were not searched or even questioned. No one checked your ID. You just showed your ticket and walked onto the plane. People who went armed in their daily lives (a small number back then) went armed on planes, too. No one talked about it; it was normal.

 

[xjchief]

I too flew for 15 years as a corporate pilot and then as an airline pilot. If you don't think pilots are capable of handling a firearm but you'll jump on their plane and let them take you for a ride over 6 miles above the earth at around three quarters of the speed of sound in all kinds of weather then I'd say you may be the one who shouldn't be trusted with a firearm.

 

[def4pos8]

xjchief: good point! I had considered all that but felt I was beating up on 'em enough already!! Two-dimensional travelers don't do well on the Z vector. I wonder how the cargo would do with about thirty seconds' worth of negative two G!?!!??

 

[Archer1945]

xjchief and def4pos8: Most of these people would be surprised to find out what passenger planes are really capable of. They don't realize these planes are flown well below their real capability so the passengers won't get upset by quick manuevers. Which is something that has always bothered me about the 9/11 flights. It's amazing what some extra G's will do to someone not strapped in their seats, especially if those G's are in a very unexpected direction. I'd much rather have to explain to the FAA why I suddenly decided to do aerobatics with my 767 than have families informed they had just lost a loved one to a terrorist.

As for allowing CCW on airplanes,NO WAY, not with out special certification. I just finished my CCW class and while I'm not the best shooter I'm far from a poor one but compared to the others in the class I'm an Olympic Gold Medalist/IDPA/IPSC Master all rolled in to one. What's bad is it wouldn't surprise me to learn most CCW classes are this way, a small minority who can shoot and the rest who can hit the broad side of a barn.

 

[CNYCacher]

If all [CCWers] were [allowed to carry on a plane] that would scare me. How much training have they had? Did they qualify? How well can they shoot (not directly related to how much training they had)? Having a CCW doesn't make you a cop as is often repeated here.

I was a Federal LEO for 27 years

oh I see. . .


I think we need to forget about doors between the flight deck and cabin altogether. They are merely a holdover from the first plane design, which was a metal tube. You take the first plane, add a plastic door and you got today. Then they talk about making the doors stronger. I say forget the stinkin door. Make the pilots enter through the front of the cockpit. Make it impossible to get from the cabin to the flight deck without exiting the plane first.

All communication between the cabin and the flight deck is done through intercom. At the first sign of a takeover attempt, the pilots hit the panic button, which disables the intercom totally, and it can not be re-enabled until after the plane is on the ground. This removes the possibility of the hijacker being able to coerce the pilot be threatening the crew. Pilots will be trained to hit the panic button no matter what at the first sign of a hijavking, alert the ground, and land ASAP into a waiting SWAT team.

Remove the stupid door.

 

[Orthonym]

Whee! I'm not among the recently banned!

That aside, I must say:

D00dz! I believe that, from some time in the 1930s up until 1964 or thenabouts, airline pilots were REQUIRED to be armed, if the airplane was carrying the U.S. Mail. It was called "the Mail Gun" and they mostly complained about it. I think that Ernest K. Gann, in his novel "Fate is the Hunter", recounted how glad the airline pilots were in the late '30s when their management negotiated with the Post Office to allow them to unbuckle the gun belts, once the plane was airborne.

 

[IA_farmboy]

Arm the pilots? Of course! Most of those fine ladies and gentleman are former military. These people have gone through all kinds of training and background checks to get the job they have. I'd hope they take their job of getting us safely from point A to point B seriously, that should include dealing with potential hijackers in a lethal manner if needed.

The pilots and other crew (let's not forget there is more than pilot and first officer to make it fly) don't have to be armed with firearms. Stun guns, handcuffs, and pepper spray might be good ideas. (Maybe not the pepper spray, close quarters and all.) If they are armed with a firearm they should be loaded with ammunition that is unlikely to punch a hole through a bulkhead or damage vital equipment. (A round through a O2 tank might make for a very bad day.)

I've heard there have been some very successful tests with new ammunition that, while still very lethal, will fall to bits when it hits metal. I here the Air Marshals have been asking for this ammunition as they don't want to have to risk losing pressurization in the aircraft while subduing a bad guy.

With that in mind I'm not sure I want people to go onto planes armed. Just like going to a sporting event, a bar, or any other place where there is many people in a tight space and alcohol is available there is security checking for weapons. I don't want some yahoo to check if his "Glock 7" is on safe in the middle of the flight and accidentally putting a hole in the window.

I remember when going to a soccer game that the security was looking for glass containers, whole fruit (like apples and oranges), or other items that could be thrown onto the field. (Maybe that is why I couldn't bring my water bottle onto the plane, they were afraid I'd throw it at the attendant after blowing the whistle. :banghead They were looking out for things that could injure others. A plane should not be any different.

Unlike other "gun free zones" in an airplane someone isn't going to suddenly appear with a shotgun while cruising at mach 0.8 over the north Atlantic. What they will have to deal with are people threatening others with improvised weapons or shear strength. Taking firearms from immediate use of the passengers should not be considered putting them at risk of another shooter.

I remember a friend of mine, older than myself, mentioning that he used to bring his rifle on board a plane while going on hunting trips. While I was amazed at first that he was allowed to do such a thing I realized what little risk it posed and now I don't see a problem with that. Treat the transport of a firearm in a plane like they do when traveling in a car, it must be unloaded and locked in a case, once on board it is to be placed in storage until you leave. That way the firearm is where you can keep track of it, since it is a valuable item much like a laptop, and you can then arm yourself as soon as you get off the plane.

While we can talk about this all we like I doubt the powers that be will all of the sudden think sanely about airline security.

 

[Hacker15E]

I think we need to forget about doors between the flight deck and cabin altogether. They are merely a holdover from the first plane design, which was a metal tube. You take the first plane, add a plastic door and you got today. Then they talk about making the doors stronger. I say forget the stinkin door. Make the pilots enter through the front of the cockpit. Make it impossible to get from the cabin to the flight deck without exiting the plane first.

All communication between the cabin and the flight deck is done through intercom. At the first sign of a takeover attempt, the pilots hit the panic button, which disables the intercom totally, and it can not be re-enabled until after the plane is on the ground. This removes the possibility of the hijacker being able to coerce the pilot be threatening the crew. Pilots will be trained to hit the panic button no matter what at the first sign of a hijavking, alert the ground, and land ASAP into a waiting SWAT team.

Hmmmm....several things here.

1) The first airplane was a metal tube? Last time I checked, the Wright Flyer was wood and fabric...and not a tube.

2) Make it impossible to get from the cabin to the cockpit? Seriously? Guess the pilots never again get to use the restroom during flight, stretch their legs, or get some food/drink from the galley. When both pilots keel over due to food poisoning (Airplane, anyone? ) I guess nobody from the cabin will be able to go give them a hand.

3) What is this "panic button" of which you speak?? It cuts off an intercomm? How exactly would that save lives? "Hit the panic button at the first sign of a takeover attempt"? Circular logic here...if there was no way to physically get into the cockpit, then why would it be necessary to blindly hit a panic button and land?

Overall, I completely don't understand the logic here -- it's very non-High Road. The same people on this board who say "arm yourself, the police can't be everywhere" advocate NOT arming pilots and leaving it up to a SWAT team after landing?

The Captain is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. If he needs to be armed to ensure that he can exercise that authority, so be it. As a poster earlier said, pilots are trained and trusted enough to carry hundreds of souls in their hands at a time...what makes them so unable to be trusted with a firearm to defend themselves -- and their ship -- with?