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Army vet disarmed of his AR and 1911 by cop

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by nathan, Apr 16, 2013.

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  1. radiotom

    radiotom Well-Known Member

    Not to mention, according to the law, that you'd have to say how he "calculated" that it was going to cause alarm.
  2. MErl

    MErl Well-Known Member

    The thing is, the cop doesn't have to prove you were out to cause alarm. He just has to think you might have been.

    The fact is that there was alarm if they got a call. That is going to get you talking to the officer. If during that discussion there is any doubt about your intent, well, that is the fun part of laws with grey areas instead of clear lines.

    When talking with the officer responding to the MWAG call, how do you answer these questions?
    "Do you think people might be concerned given recent events?"
    "Can you understand why people might be concerned?"

    Either of those could be twisted to intent. The officer gets to make a judgment call and your words and actions (and history) have an effect on that.
  3. JRH6856

    JRH6856 Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, whether or not something is calculated to cause alarm is often determined by whether or not it does cause alarm or is likely to do so.

    I know that open carry of rifles and shotguns is not common in the area where I live. I also know that anyone openly carrying a rifle or a shotgun is going to cause alarm for someone because the action is uncommon. Therefore, if I choose to openly carry a rifle or a shotgun, I do so knowing that it is likely to cause a alarm. And knowing that this is likely to get me arrested, I choose not to do so.
  4. Gaiudo

    Gaiudo Well-Known Member

  5. Averageman

    Averageman Well-Known Member

    Lets be honest, these small towns dont get the cream of the LEO crop many times.
    I think all that has transpired will result in a definate loss of job for those two Police Officers and some money being paid by the City to settle this out of court.
    You have two personalites dealing with each other, one of you can be the bigger Man and defuse the situation before it gets out of hand or you can bow up and be the tuff guy.
    Neither did, now look where it leads us?
    I'm all for clearing the AR, pocketing the mag and being friendly about the situation. I wonder what the reaction might have been at that point?
    I came home to find the Fire Department putting out a fire on my deck due to an errant spark from someones ciggarette.
    The FD had the fire mostly out when I arrived, but a LEO followed me from my driveway to my backyard. When I removed my shirt to rip some boards up to help the Fireman, the LEO had a bit of a hissy fit and wanted my pistol. I cleared the weapon and handed it to him. My line of thought was he didin't want someone who might be upset on the scene with the Firemen.
    Well, in the end all he did was check the pistol ( as in yes, this is a legal pistol) and call in the serial numbers. I'm not sure what that had to do with anything, maybe SOP. So what I thought might be public safety problem turned in to a fishing expedition when he ran my serial numbers on my gun while standing on my property.
    I did smile when one of the Firemen muttered A**h*le loud enough for the Officer to hear as we went back to work on the Fire.
    I will say it did defuse the situation and let us get back to putting out the fire.
  6. What happened to the "benefit of the doubt". or presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty? I get offended when no actual overt action has occurred (just a citizen walking down the street with a gun, with no directed threat),but the police treat it as if you just murdered someone. How about issuing a summons, noting a recognizance bond since he is local, and let the judge determine if a crime has really been committed, without putting out a POSSIBLY innocent man. Too much to ask?
  7. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Well-Known Member

    They would have shot him as he cleared it.
  8. wow6599

    wow6599 Well-Known Member

    I don't understand why this is such a debate. He either broke the law or he didn't - period. As far as I can tell he didn't, and I hope he sues the pants off the police department, and the arresting officer(s) lose their jobs. One even admitted the law didn't really matter.....are you kidding me?
  9. barnbwt

    barnbwt Well-Known Member

    Are officers allowed to just randomly breathalyze people they come across on the street with no justification? Kindly ask every third driver to open their trunk, please? Glad the officer didn't chase up anything (real or mistake) on his serial check, but that doesn't make that procedure okay. You were on your property, your gun, concealed or not, is none of his business if you aren't being hazardous. I'd comply with such a request, but at the least I would be asking the Chief about the practice.

    Back on topic, we still have yet to see any evidence the MWAG did anything but obey the law. So far the officers' actions have only been shown to be sketchy...at best. Until we see a dashcam video showing that the guy was juggling ARs while shouting obscenities before being booked, he has the benefit of the doubt.

  10. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Well-Known Member

    I have the serial number covered up with tape on my carry gun. Have to take the grips off to get the tape off -- easy enough to do if you have a search warrant.

    There's the problem. Terry doesn't require that the officer articulate anything to the suspect, and he has plenty of time to make something up after the fact -- retroactive RAS.
  11. I believe they DO have to tell you what you are being arrested for BEFORE they drag you away in cuffs. Wouldn't you just hate being the officer on the stand who is forced to admit that you didn't KNOW at the time what you were arresting someone for?
  12. Vector

    Vector Well-Known Member

    The problem as I see it (outside of the cops arresting him) was the initial call to the police by a "concerned citizen".
    Just because a citizen is not use to seeing open carry or ignorant of the law, does not mean they should get the police involved in something like this.

    My theory is that we need to desensitize the general public to open carry by doing it anywhere where it is lawful to do so. Read more in this THR thread;


    Otherwise our rights will continue to be diminished by those who think they are doing the right thing by calling the police any time they see someone OCing.

  13. smogmage

    smogmage Well-Known Member

    Well there's a possible good outcome and a possible bad outcome to open carry movements. They started up a good size movement in Kommiefornia and enough people realized it was legal....so they went and got it banned. Now that no form of carry is legal in that horrid state they will be forced into legally allowing some form of carry. But only after much time and expense wasted on both sides.

    I would prefer either the dispatcher informing the caller of the legality of what they are observing and not send officers to a non issue. Or punish these callers for wasting taxpayer money on wasted officers time and harassing citizens exercising their Rights.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  14. SixxshootinSam

    SixxshootinSam Active Member

    Anyone notice when officer friendly confiscated the guy's .45, he barrel swipes him from shoulder to shoulder? Good grief...
  15. smogmage

    smogmage Well-Known Member

    Citizen points a gun at someone and its assault with a deadly weapon / aggravated assault.
    Cop does the same thing and its just another day at work.
  16. Averageman

    Averageman Well-Known Member

    Anyone notice when officer friendly confiscated the guy's .45, he barrel swipes him from shoulder to shoulder? Good grief...
    At this point perhaps they need to turn this in to a training film as to "What not to do, if you confront someone carrying a Long Gun legally in Texas" and show it at the Police Academy.
    There is nothing like flagging a Mans brainstem with his handgun while he is in handcuffs and it is being filmed.

    Are officers allowed to just randomly breathalyze people they come across on the street with no justification? Kindly ask every third driver to open their trunk, please? Glad the officer didn't chase up anything (real or mistake) on his serial check, but that doesn't make that procedure okay.
    I dont have a problem with that when there are first responders on the scene a lot of people are overcome with emotions at times like these. I was surprised, he saw my CHL and the pistol, why not just sit it (as it was unloaded) aside and carry on with whatever he thought he was doing at the time.
    As I said, the Firemen on the scene were not impressed at all and I'm sure they have more interaction with him than I do.
    I would like to see the locals become a little more active in confronting the situation and finding resolution on the issue.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  17. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Innocence until proven guilty is a court issue. Grisham still has this, but "innocence until proven guilty" would not stop a person from getting arrested.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. If operating that way, the police could not do their jobs because they could not arrest hardly anybody until they were convicted in court first where they were "proven guilty" and by then, most folks would be long gone.
  18. ^^Yeah, we all know that. But what was their "reasonable suspicion" to stop, and "probable cause" to arrest?
  19. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Well-Known Member

    That's easy; "Smelled alcohol" would do it. That justifies the Terry stop without actual probable cause. The arrest was for not following orders during the Terry stop.

    You're trying to look at it like an honest cop.
  20. osteodoc08

    osteodoc08 Well-Known Member

    The sad part is, this kinda stuff probably happens all the time and since there's no evidence to the contrary like a video, it goes un noticed. Good thing they got it on film. There's no disputing what happened on film.

    As far as the honest cop thing, we just had some local cops busted for planting drugs in a counter sting, but I'd like to think we as a whole have honest LEOs. I have never had issues with our local LEOs. I was stopped at a road block several years ago and I told the LEO I was carrying. He asked for license and concealed permit. He thanked me and went on my way.
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