Bad news. Hunter loses it, kills five, wounds others

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I read that he was Vietnamese.

Probably no word on this yet, but has anyone heard if he is an immigrant to the US? I wonder if he wasn't an ex-soldier from either North or the South Vietnam's Army. If he was a Northern soldier, he might have had different reasons for shooting them than just as a hunting dispute. He may have been there deliberately to shoot some armed Americans......like he use to do in the old days. Maybe this was delayed stress or an old grudge.
 
Wow, you have some serious restraint. I think I'd have popped him at that point. Pointing a gun at me in anger = sorry pal, the jury's on my side.

Restraint hell, I was scared spitless plus all I could think was if I shot the silly sod I'D be the one that went to jail. Probably stupid to think of such a thing under the circumstances but El Tejon's voice kept echoing in my head. :)
 
I'm no tactician, but it sounds as if something is missing in the story - that or the shooter was there with a plan to take out a bunch of people.

My thoughts exactly. Also his choice of weapon made me question this whole thing. A Vietnamese with an SKS rifle might be a guy using a gun he is familar with to hunt deer.....or it might be a guy using the same weapon he once used in Vietnam because he is ready to start killing some people.

You asked if other people couldn't have accurately fired back on him. I wondered about that also. He could have simply been headed back to his car and they all bumped into each other on the only trail, and he shot them more rapidly because they weren't armed with semi-automatics.

But I also think it becomes a little more possible given his ethnicity and choice to weapon to wonder if this "hunter" could have killed them because he had been schooled in ambush tactics. He might have seen the people asked for help on the walkie talkie and knew that this was going to announce the arrival of others soon. So he set up an ambush and got them while they were walking in on the trail.

All speculation on my part, but it was the first thing that occured to me.
I guess you'd call this the "Wisconson Asian Rambo conspiracy theory".
 
It can get dicey out there when you find somebody on your property. And it can get even worse when everybody is carrying a gun! I own and live on 90 acres and I'm always worried I'm going to bump into some city fool with a rifle who decides to swing it up on me when I tell him to get back over that barbed wire fence. Nobody wants to have to shoot anybody and I sure don't want to get shot myself.

I had a LOT of trouble with coon hunters on my property. I tried to talk to the Sheriff about it but he said they had "legal right" to be on my property since they were just "retrieving their dogs." See, it's not their fault where their hounds go. And they can't just LET them go so they have to chase after them. It would make my dogs all go crazy and nobody would get any sleep. (This used to always happen at around midnight on a Thursday night for some reason.) I would go out there with a FAL or AR and track them around until I would get a chance to tell them to leave. I wasn't happy about the whole thing but at least they were always over in the far woods to my east. Then one night I looked out the kitchen window and they had stopped their truck on the easement road (my fence) and were in my front pasture with dogs and flashlights. This is straight south from my house and in plain sight of the house maybe 400 yards away. The dogs were running around baying and the people were going from tree to tree shining lights. It didn't look like anybody was "retrieving their property" to me. It looked like a bunch of people looking for coons. (Which they don't even shoot but let's not even go there!)

I went and grabbed the Glock 17. It was pretty dark. I went through two gates until I was next to my upper pond. I have a target stand there. I turned my body until the gun was pointed about 45 degrees away from the people and pointed at the target stand. And the gun was sharply angled downward so I figured the bullets would go through the stand and then into the ground within 6-10 feet. But by firing the Glock at a 45 degree angle to them I figured they would be able to see some muzzle flash. I then quickly fired ten shots. And then I started screaming that I was sick of this sxxx and to get the fxxx off my property. Those flashllights moved back to the running pickup really fast!

The next day I got a visit from the deputy sheriff. He said the guys had flagged his car down and told him some crazy guy back there was shooting at them! They claimed the bullets were just whizzing right by them and they were just "trying to get their dogs." (At this point the deputy sheriff told me once AGAIN that they are allowed to come onto my property for that.) But, to give the deputy credit, he asked the guys if any of them or their pickup had been hit. They had to say no. We had a good talk and he told me not to do that anymore. He pointed out to me that at LEAST two bad things could have happened. One, the guys could have been smarter. They could have pulled over by the side of the road and fired one or two rounds from one of their guns into the side of the pickup. I would have had a MUCH harder time then. Or two, these local yokels could just decide they don't like me and "somebody will just find you out in the woods."

Things have gotten calmer around here since then. No coon hunters ever came on my property again. And I talked to a local guy a year or so later who didn't know me. He was surprised when he figured out where I lived. He said he heard there was some crazy guy that lived in that house who would shoot anybody who came on his land! I told him I wasn't totally displeased to hear that!

So it is always a potential problem when you have trespassers. And it is MUCH worse when they are carrying loaded rifles. I've had to send a few "lost" hunters off my property but none of them has been crazy enough to challenge me. I HOPE it never comes to something like that!

Gregg

Vinita, OK
 
Great, now there's all kinds of chatter on the news and in some circles I've observed about the evils of letting people own the "SKS assault rifle."

I just love it how these people will turn any violent loss of life into a tool to further their political agenda. Stay turned for more disrespectful misinformation and propaganda from groups who stand to profit from this latest tragedy.
 
The incident occurred about 100 miles from Minneapolis (but in Wisconsin), and it got huge play on the local news (Channel 5) tonight--I mean, like almost half the broadcast. There were a couple of conflicting reports. The majority said that the lawful hunters asked the trespasser to leave (without any detail on the manner in which this request was made), and the trespasser refused and opened fire. One guy apparently called his buddies back at the deer camp on a walkie-talkie, and they came out and got shot, too. Another report suggested the trespasser left and then came back with the SKS, but that did not seem to be the majority view.

And yes, the SKS was identified as an "assault weapon" that is not banned under current laws, and it was later clarified that it is a semi-auto weapon that fires one round every time the trigger is pulled. The trespasser/shooter is a St. Paul resident who was described as cooperative in his jail cell in Wisconsin.

This does suck. What went wrong here, I don't get it.
 
I don't think semi-auto vs. bolt action has anything to do with it. Sounds to me like a tactics and determination issue. The SKS guy seemed to be ready to go the whole distance and the other guys were not. The hunters were probably all standing next to each other with their guns over their shoulders when the SKS guy decided they had to go. Then again, that SKS might have been able to do the trick in the thick woods where visibility was probably down to less than 50 yards or so. Who knows. I guess what we can learn from this is if you ever go out in groups and find tresspassers, spread out! Flank them and be ready.
 
A long article from the Star Tribune, which can summon an awesome amount of reporting power when they want to.

The Channel 5 teaser called it "...an automatic weapon resembling this semiautomatic," and showed a picture of an SKS.

And for the record, the suspect is Hmong, not Vietnamese -- the Hmong fought on our side in Vietnam. Anyway, he's 36, so he is far too young for the kill-whitey theory.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5097995.html

Wisconsin shootings kill 5

Terry Collins, Chuck Haga, Larry Oakes, Chao Xiong and Richard Meryhew, Star Tribune
November 22, 2004 HUNTERS1122
1hunters1122.l.jpg

the suspect

At least five people were killed and three wounded in a multiple shooting in northwestern Wisconsin Sunday afternoon. After a confrontation over the use of a deer stand, a 36-year-old St. Paul man apparently chased some of the victims through a heavily wooded area, authorities said.

Chai Soua Vang, 36, was arrested early Sunday evening in Sawyer County, Wis., said Sawyer County Sheriff's Deputy Jake Hodgkinson. Vang lives on St. Paul's East Side, police spokesman Paul Schnell said.

Vang was being held in the Sawyer County Jail in Hayward.

Tim Zeigle, chief deputy for the Sawyer County Sheriff's Department, said Sunday night that four men and one woman were among the dead.

Zeigle said the bodies were found "a long way from each other," indicating the killer chased them down after the initial confrontation and as several hunters came to assist their colleagues.

Investigators found two bodies next to each other, with a third 50 yards away, the fourth 75 yards from the third and the final body 100 yards from the fourth, Zeigle said.

They were killed with an SKS assault-style rifle, he added.

"He was picking them off," Zeigle said, adding that some were shot more than once. "He was chasing after them and killing them."

Authorities were still working on the crime scene late Sunday night.

Two of the victims were identified by friends Sunday as Robert Crotteau, about 41, and his son, Joey, about 20.

"This is not supposed to happen to people you know," said Mark Miller, owner of Fat Man's, a Rice Lake tavern where Robert Crotteau often stopped by for lunch.

Miller also believed two others who were killed were a father and daughter.

Crotteau owned a concrete company in town, said longtime Rice Lake City Council Member Marv Thompson said.

"They're a good family," Thompson said. "They're decent people. Deer hunting is real big in their family and a lot of households around here."

Zeigle said that a man dressed in hunting clothes was occupying a tree stand on private property around noon Sunday. He did not have permission to hunt on the land and was asked by a group of deer hunters to leave.

After one man was shot, he used a walkie-talkie to contact others in his party nearby that he needed help. When members of his party came out, they also were shot, Zeigle said.

Roads near the scene were closed to all traffic, including ambulances, as authorities from sheriff's departments in Sawyer, Rusk and Barron counties were involved in the manhunt.

According to broadcast reports, the man then fled into the woods and came upon another hunter who was able to tell him how to get out.

When he got out, he was met by a Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources officer who contacted police.

Officers arrested Vang without incident. His rifle was empty.

Zeigle said authorities were notified of the shootings shortly after noon, when one of the members hunting party stopped at a gas station in the city of Birchwood while taking one of the victims to the hospital.

The caller said simply, "There were five people dead in the woods," Zeigle said.

Deputies were immediately dispatched to the scene and found the bodies in the brush. The injured were taking to hospitals. At that point, authorities started their search for Vang, taking to county roads and the air hoping to find him.

One of the hunters had given authorities Vang's "tag number," which identifies deer hunters when they get their licenses. The hunter had written the number down during the confrontation that sparked the shooting.

'Prayed for safe hunt'

Three wounded men were taken to Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, Wis. One of the victims, Denny Drew, had surgery and was in serious condition, said Jennifer Greshowak, the hospital's director of community relations. Another, Lauren Hesebeck, also had surgery and he was in fair condition.

A third victim was flown to a trauma center in Marshfield, Wis., and is listed in critical condition.

Hesenbeck's wife, Theresa Hesenbeck, who also is Drew's sister, said Sunday night that she learned about the shootings shortly after leaving church, where she had "prayed for a safe hunt."

Drew was shot in the stomach. The bullet went in one side and out the other, family members said. They added that Lauren Hesenbeck was shot in the arm and the bullet exited through his back.

The shootings happened in Meteor Township in southwestern Sawyer County, between the cities of Birchwood and Exeland.

The Drew and Hesebeck family said in a statement Sunday that they "certainly appreciate the thoughts and prayer of this close-knit community and encourage you to think and pray for the other families involved."

Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Miller said he used to play fast-pitch softball with Robert Crotteau and his brothers. Miller said he brought a car this spring from Denny Drew, "and Lauren Hesenbeck rode with me to put gas in it. It's a small town and everybody knows everybody.

"It's going to be strange working [today]. It's all that people will be talking about."

The arrested man, Vang, lives in an aging, two-story house on St. Paul's lower East Side.

He and his family apparently moved into the neighborhood earlier this year, said John Black, a lifelong resident of the neighborhood who lives across the street.

Black and his wife, Cheryl, said Sunday night that the family pretty much kept to themselves, rarely interacting with neighbors. They said they never spoke with the man, but described him as "real clean-cut" and "nicely dressed."

John Black said he believed there were several children living in the home, but added that he didn't know how many there were or what their relation to Vang might be.

"We never had any problems with them," Black, 56, said. "We never heard a peep out of those guys to be honest with you. We're floored. What would take a guy to that point?"

John Black said he was watching a football game sometime after 3:30 p.m. Sunday when he noticed some commotion outside and saw several unmarked police cars pull up in front of Vang's house.

"They wouldn't tell us anything," said Black, who eventually found out what was going on from a TV cameraman.

At one point, Black said, police led a woman from the house, shielding her from cameras by covering her face with a blanket.

The writers are at [email protected].

The Associated Press contributed to this report.
 
Lotsa meth labs in the rural areas where I've been hunting lately. Sad consideration, but I always make sure to have extra ammo and a b.u.g. on me when I'm afield these days.
 
I don't want to defend Vang, but I want to understand why he might have done this. Perhaps he is under the impression that American hunters are knuckle-dragging bigots, and thought he was about to be lynched by a group of rednecks. Maybe he doesn't understand English very well, or couldn't hear what the hunters were telling him; due to windy conditions or distance. He may have seen a bunch of round eyes with guns, shouting at him, and panicked. Maybe someone unintentionally (and foolishly) pointed his gun at the other party, and drew fire.

If this is the result of a misunderstanding between rational people, rather than one nut on a rampage, then the incident is far more disturbing.
 
Chao Xiong sounds like a Chinese name to me. So unless Hmong gangs wanted to kill Triads or something, I'm tending to disbelieve the "hit" theory.
 
The guy wasn't much of a hunter if at all. They caught him because he became lost in the woods after the shooting. That's pretty darn funny.
 
According to the last article (55 minutes old), he was "sniping" the victims and he's from Minnesota:
He says the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them." Some victims were shot more than once.
 
This is nuts! :cuss:

It's the top story on CNN right now.

I sure hope not, but what'ya all wanna bet this gives the ATF the perfect excuse to pull the SKS off of the Curio & Relic list?
 
Wow. MSNBC actually got it right.
Zeigle said the suspect was “chasing after them and killing them,†with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin’s statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.
No mention of assault rifles or anything of the sort. ABC News pretty much ran the same line, about the SKS being commonly used to hunt. That's a good thing, given that many people do use it for hunting. I have several friends who hunt deer with it (although I've never used mine to do that).
 
Alduro, how could so many get shot and not the shooter? Simple. He had the advantage.

Bigjake, domestic terrorist? Why does it need to be a terrorist for this to happen? If it was a terrorist, he would not have been in the tree stand, but someplace off from the tree stand where he could snipe the hunters without direct confrontation.
 
Neal Boortz has weighed in with some snarky comments (surprise, surprise) on his web site.

Below are his comments, and below that is my email to him, not that it'll ever get read on the air.

Neal's comments:

Hunters.? Gotta love 'em.? There's nothing quite like waking up on a beautiful fall morning in the middle of the forest, having a nice breakfast and a cup of joe, and then heading out into the woods to look for something to kill.? Hey, if you can't find any deer, how about some other hunters?? You know, if these guys were as tough as we want them to believe they are, they would enlist and go to Iraq.? There they would have something to hunt that actually deserves to die.





And my comments to Neal:


I'd say you just don't get it about hunters, Neal.

Hunting is not about "being tough."

Hunting is about being self-reliant.

By hunting deer, people participate in the food chain in a direct manner.

They exercise their own ability to feed themselves and their families in a fashion that many Americans have become too fat, stupid, lazy, and soft to do for themselves any more.

You are all the time slamming people who leech of the system, and who are welfare parasites.

Hunters are going one more step beyond not leeching off the system.

They are finding and ethically killing and processing their own meat.

They aren't paying somebody else to run a mechanized slaughter house and do all the dirty work for them.

Besides, a deer with all its "prey animal" senses of superior smell and hearing and ability to see the slightest movement stands a Hell of a lot better chance of getting away than some poor Holstein lined up in the chute waiting for the big knives.

This guy in Wisconsin isn't "a hunter." He's a psychopath.

And when is the last time in the last 20 years when such murders have happened during a deer season? I can't say I ever remember such a case. This is not "typical behavior" by hunters. This is the random act of a psychopath.

But I'd have to say you are making your off-the-cuff comments about "hunters" from a position of ignorance.
 
Could it be that the walkie-talkie call for assistance was just that, a call for help, with no information that the 2 hunter who confronted this man had met a crazy person?

Doesn't the fact the shooter was able to chase the rescue group down one by one and shoot them tend to indicate they did not have weapons? They came unarmed. Not too much of a stretch.

A very tragic situation and one that calls for our prayers for the families of those struggling to survive.

I expect another round of uninformed left wing media spin regarding "assault weapons". Could it be Bush will get to keep his word on signing a piece of legislation regarding "assault weapons"?

Depressing

S-
 
Why is there such a propensity to come to a conclusion before all the facts are known?

There's enough conjecture and supposition with an underlying hint of bigotry to write a Tom Clancy novel.

Grab the rope Billy Bob, lets hang this varmint. :rolleyes:
 
They might not have know they were under fire. Think about it, if all 5 are scattered arouund the woods in stands and hear gunshots, they're just thinking someones just bagged a deer. And another, and another, and another, until too late. They just got bagged. This guy was chased off, left the property, and then came back with the SKS. So the hunting party became the hunted.
 
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