Bad news. Hunter loses it, kills five, wounds others

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Considering the reputation of our local Hmong population in regards to obeying fishing laws, well, I cannot say that this is a terrible suprise to me. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.
 
never assign to conspiracy that which is equally well explained by just plain human fallibility. My guess is we're soon gonna either hear about a nearby methlab/potfield the dude was guarding, or Mr. SKS was otherwise rrmm.. "chemically impaired" at the time.
 
And now he'll go to trial and they'll plead insanity, or rage, etc, and he'll go to prison at the tax payer's expense. I favor the death penalty at the scene of the crime.
 
Fight over deer stand...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2912960

Nov. 22, 2004, 7:41AM



Hunter kills 5, injures 3 in dispute over tree stand
Associated Press

BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt's opening weekend, authorities said. ADVERTISEMENT


The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff's officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.

The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.

It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.

Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.

The dead included four males -- including a teenage boy -- and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.

All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.

"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.

Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.

The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.

The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.

One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.

Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.

"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."

It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. "We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."


with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon

I am shocked. They didn't say it is an assault weapon.
 
Geez. I'm glad I don't live there. Then again, the death penalty is pretty much lip service these days anyway. Prisoners just sit on death row for years.
 
Hmmm...
Wonder where the reporter picked that bit of info about the SKS up?

By stretching the ole imagination a bit I could see the SKS being a common deer rifle but it'd be a long, long stretch. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it most definitely would - especially in brush country or the woods. I just don't believe it'd be all that common among your average legal deer hunter. Now your deer poaching or subsistence hunter on the other hand...

The shooter's name sounded Vietnamese to me - wonder if he's a refugee who just flashed back and lost it when confronted by two white guys with guns? Something else must have happened that isn't yet known. Wiping out 5 people based on the facts as presented just doesn't make much sense to me.
 
I can't say I'm surprised they mentioned it was a semi-automatic weapon. Anything to fuel the assualt ban fire. I am always leary when I go to the range alone, I can imagine how people will be constantly worried now and looking over their shoulders at every noise.

Cazio
 
By stretching the ole imagination a bit I could see the SKS being a common deer rifle but it'd be a long, long stretch. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it most definitely would - especially in brush country or the woods. I just don't believe it'd be all that common among your average legal deer hunter. Now your deer poaching or subsistence hunter on the other hand...
Since the SKS is probably THE most common centerfire rifle in the U.S., with more than seven million in the hands of gun owners, I would imagine it's actually fairly common in states that allow hunting with rifles.

The Kansas City Star did call the gun a "high-powered SKS assault rifle", which is pretty much backwards. (Quick--name five common deer rounds LESS powerful than the 7.62x39...) And IIRC, it's not an "assault weapon" by ANY state's definition.
 
Scary stuff. I was up near that area for the opener, hunting on National Forest land. There is so much public land near there I wonder why the perp picked the location he did.
 
The shooter's name sounded Vietnamese to me - wonder if he's a refugee who just flashed back and lost it when confronted by two white guys with guns?

At only 36 years old? Not too likely - he'd have been born in 1968.

Other articles have said that this shooter is Hmong Vietnamese. The Hmong aren't exactly strong followers of hunting ethics and following fish/game laws.
 
I'm not surprised to hear it called a common hunting weapon either.. between how cheap the rifle is and how cheap the ammo is, it's seeming to overtake the ol' .30-30 as the ubiquitous "bubba gun" in a lot of areas ain't it?
 
I work with a guy who is Hmong. Hmong are from Laos, not Vietnam. And most of them are pretty close knit. My co-worker returns from vacation next week. I'm pretty sure he'll at least know someone who knows that guy's family.
 
Kaylee

[I'm not surprised to hear it called a common hunting weapon either.. between how cheap the rifle is and how cheap the ammo is, it's seeming to overtake the ol' .30-30 as the ubiquitous "bubba gun" in a lot of areas ain't it?]

Where does that leave me? I've got a SKS and a 30/30. Not to mention a NEF 308. LOL :D
 
They were discussing this on the local top 40 radio station this morning, and some dude called up to explain to the DJs what the gun is. He kept referring to it as "a tactical assault rifle" and mentioning the grenade launching capability and making it sound evil. Worst part of it was that this guy owned one himself... a fellow gun owner helping out the gun grabber's cause. I won't be surprised to see people calling for the ban of semi auto rifles for hunting.

How many people will be screaming for a new AWB using this incident as ammunition. I think it's time I go buy a yugo SKS while I can.
 
Do you think this could be a case of this dude being clueless as to what was public and what was private land.
Let's say that is the case and he spent all day Sat being run off of other private land. By Sunday he was still clueless and these poor guys ran into a fellow that was off his nut.
I wonder if the land was posted?
There is no excuse for this. Does Wisconsin require a hunter safety course to get a HL?

S-
 
Does Wisconsin require a hunter safety course to get a Hl?

Yes.
My thoughts take me to rules of a gunfight.
Bring a gun.
Bring several people with a gun.
Bring a long gun.


And one that is not written†If going to a gunfight lose the international orange" as it makes you a sitting duck.

I’m not sure if the guy that called with the 2 way radio said he was shot, if he thought it was an accident or if he was under fire. There isn't enough information at this time.
You can bet the antigunners are going to grab on to this one.
__________________
 
Good example of mindset I guess. I don't see how the other hunters responding to this managed to get shot as well. They knew the guy was shooting people. They knew his physical location. If he was still occupying the stand, they knew his exact location. They had to be armed with rifles that were effective for deer.

I guess I just don't understand how the shooter in this case didn't wind up being shot unless these guys were going in with the mindset that they wouldn't need to do any shooting.
 
Wow, I was off playing all weekend and I just heard about this on the radio on the way in to work. I knew right away when they said the shooter’s name that he was Hmong. The Hmong people are a hill tribe from Laos. Originally from Southern China, they moved in to Laos hundreds of years ago. The French and the US utilized their fearlessness and Mountain Skills in the fight against Communism leading up to and through the Vietnam War. There was a book I read some time ago called “Tragic Mountains†that told this story. Key things I remember were, the French soldiers were cutting a trail back and forth across a mountain while trying to get over it. The barefoot Hmong fighters took off straight up the mountain. When asked why go straight up the mountain when it is so hard, they just replied, “Isn’t that where we are goingâ€. They fought with tenacity and are great warriors. The Hmong, as with most other Hill Tribes from Laos and Thailand are Animistic. This means that they worship their dead ancestors. When the communist’s won, most of those who fought against them had to escape to Thailand and live in camps or be killed by the communists. Many of them were able to come to the U.S. for asylum. There are still some living in camps trying to get here.

I know all this from my time spent as a Laotian Speaking Mormon missionary in California. I learned to speak Laotian primarily. I also learned quite a few words in several Hill Tribe Languages including Hmong, Mien, Khmu, and Musser. Hill Tribe people are fascinating. They are very tight knit communities. Some, even after being here almost 20 years, do not speak English. They are brought into the US and spread across varying parts of the country, then they find out where their relatives are, and move there. The sad part is that most of the communities they end up in are the ones which happen to have the best welfare or free money/housing programs. Then they stay in their tight communities and speak their language all day so they never fully adapt to the generally accepted “U.S. lifestyle†nor do they learn English well. I believe this will go on till the older generation dies out.

These are some of the factors which could have led to this guy freaking out. None of which make it excusable or justify it. I just thought I would put down what I know. There is a chance that this guy has seen and done things that most of us will never do. 20 to 25 years ago he and his family were squatting barefoot around a fire, farming and hunting for food, and trying not to do things that would piss off their dead ancestors. They try hard to keep their dead ancestors happy. I knew a guy from a different hill tribe who told the story of having to kill his twin daughters that were born when he was still in the mountains of Laos. When twins are born, they believed that one was evil and there was no way to know which one, so their tradition was to kill both babies and bury one on each side of the path leading up to their house.

Another thing that may be an issue is inbreeding. It sounds funny to say that, buy arranged marriages to first cousins are not uncommon with Hill Tribe people.

Another interesting note. The first AK-47 I ever saw was in the home of a Hmong guy. He told me he got it because of all the gunfire in his neighborhood. Believe me, he needed it. That neighborhood was North Richmond California. In the early 90’s when I was there, it was the murder capital, per-capita in the nation. Major Gang war there. I was visiting some people there on New Years eve. When midnight hit. It sounded like a war zone. Every other house had some guy in his front yard firing a fully automatic weapon into the sky. It was a wild time.

I am amazed that none of these folks were able to defend themselves. I wonder how close they were to each other. This is just plain sad. Can’t be good for our cause.
 
Quote:
Does Wisconsin require a hunter safety course to get a Hl?


Yes.

Wrong. They are only required (this year) if you were born after 1973. This guy was 36 and therefore was not required to have a hunter safety course before purchasing a hunting license. At least that is the way it works for residents, so I'm assuming its the same for non-residents, which this guy was.
 
According to latest report:

News 10 from Albany N.Y. reports at 12:00

According to news 10, the accused had a dispute with the hunters over being allowed use of their stand ON THEIR PRIVATE PROPERTY, and then left, and RETURNED with the weapon...
They didn't even state what type of rifle was used. I liked that...
Unbiased reporting of the facts without sensationalism...
News 10 is generally pretty good about that...

The point is, he left and returned armed and with full intent to do harm.
That's Murder 1. No excuses. I don't care what nationality you are...
Somehow I wish some of those hunters could have popped this little puke, but I guess it is a shining example of what one determined person and a loaded firearm are capable of, even against the worst odds...
Also proves the old adage:
One Spartan is worth 1000 average warriors...

I won't say what I would have done differently, because it may have been me that was shot first seeing as to how I would have had the most to say to some guy who refused to take a polite "no" for an answer, but it suffices that around me and my friends, this guy wouldn't have gotten off a second shot much less murdering 5 and wounding 3.
We all carry holstered handguns in the woods and at camp locked and loaded at ALL times.
You never know when or where a rabid vermin might jump up at you.
Mark my words, none of of us would run, to be gunned down like game...

The anti gun stations are making a big deal out of the fact that he used an SKS calling it an "assault weapon" that fires the same ammo as the AK-47...
Don't you just love double-talk?

jim
 
It is tragic and unfortunately it's probably going to get worse.

I can see "self defense" and racial strategies being used to justify his actions. Politically this will go well beyond the killing of five people is my guess. I can see it now,

"They called me *insert pajorative racial slur here* and said they'd shoot me if I didn't leave... I was scared, they pointed their guns at me so I shot em. When I saw more coming I shot them too...."

There might even be truth to that.

I believe most of the time (99.99999%) guns keep people civil but when things get ugly the potential for a disproportionate reaction or response is there. Sadly this incident will overshadow the millions of other positive incidents where hunters armed with the tool of their choice went out safely and had a great time.

The whole thing bums me out.
 
The presence of one firearm among 8 victims pretty much puts paid to that "fear" defense. It might have got him some mileage with the first two shootings, assuming they had the gun, but with the last six? No...

Frankly I am thinking there won't be a lot of fallout from this politically. A racial minority, an immigrant to boot, shoots a bunch of unarmed members of a non-politically correct fraternity. The only thing the extremists have to play on is the SKS itself, which is not a great prop for them what with its wood stock and rather conventional lines. Too much of a balancing act for the fear-mongers to use this without goring some of their own oxen.
 
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