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BATFE rejects SIG handguns from selection

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Quiet, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. Quiet

    Quiet Well-Known Member

    BATFE is looking for a new service sidearm to replace their current issue .40S&W SIG P226/P229 pistols.
    They sent out a RFP for a polymer framed full size and compact size .40S&W pistol.

    SIG submitted the P250 and P250 Compact.
    S&W submitted the M&P40 and M&P40C.
    Glock submitted the 22 and 23.

    After Phase 2 testing, the SIG pistols were dropped from the competition.
    SIG appealed being dropped and BATFE rejected the appeal.

    SIG complained the testing was biased with BATFE testors favoring the S&W pistols.

    BATFE gave the reasons for the rejection was due to the unreliability of the SIG P250 and P250 Compact.

    Phase 2 testing was a live fire test involving 40 agents.
    Agents fired 200 rounds per pistol.

    Agents rated the reliability of...
    ... the SIG P250/P250 Compact = 25% excellent, 30% very good, 25% good, 15% fair, 5% unsatisfactory.
    ... the S&W M&P40/40C = 52.5% excellent, 30% very good, 5% good, 5% fair, 4.5% unsatisfactory.
    ... the Glock 22/23 = 47.5% excellent, 32.5% very good, 7.5% good, 10% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory.

    Agents rated overall assement of...
    ... the SIG P250/P250 Compact = 15% excellent, 42.5% very good, 20% good, 12.5% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory, 7.5% no answer.
    ... the S&W M&P40/40C = 32.5% excellent, 35% very good, 15% good, 7.5% fair, 5% unsatisfactory, 5% no answer.
    ... the Glock 22/23 = 30% excellent, 27.5% very good, 22.5% good, 15% fair, 2.5% unsatisfactory, 2.5% no answer.

    Evaluators recorded...
    ... the SIG P250/P250 Compact had a total of 58 malfunctions. 13 gun induced & 45 shooter induced.
    ... the S&W M&P40/M&P40C had a total of 16 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 16 shooter induced.
    ... the Glock 22/23 had a total of 9 malfunctions. 0 gun induced & 9 shooter induced.
  2. Quiet

    Quiet Well-Known Member

    It also appears that the Federal Air Marshall's have stopped issueing the SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG), due to the reported unreliability from the BATFE testing.

    They appear to be in a wait in see mode, with some Air Marshalls still using the SIG P229 (.357SIG) and some using the SIG P250 Compact (.357SIG).
  3. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Well-Known Member

    Good post.
  4. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Well-Known Member

    I have always felt that G-Men or any LEO ought to supply their own Arms anyway.

    I would never trust a Carpenter or Plumber who had to use Tools his boss had to buy for him, and, which his boss still owns.

    That is what serfs and peons traditionally settled for.

    I wish we could have grown ups in these jobs.

    Not like they do not get paid more than plenty anyway, to afford their own Arm(s).

    If any given unit or organization wishes to decide a particular Caliber or choice of Calibers, so be it, their personel would then elect Side Arms obliging that Caliber or Calibers.

  5. legion3

    legion3 Well-Known Member

    Numerous threads on different boards have suggested that the Sig 250 is by far (one of) Sig's worst product (s) and has always had issues.

    As Sigs just don't do it for me I am not a Sig expert but many Sig fans suggested that the 250 was a poor choice to submit but that the criteria called for a certain type of gun and the 250 was the closest. The USCG seems pleased with the 229DAK so who knows why the ATF was limiting in choices for submition?

    Of course the remaining two entries have started some back and forth between Glock guys and M&P guys but that's another story...;)
  6. Roughneck08

    Roughneck08 Well-Known Member

    That strikes me the air marshalls would use the .357 sig, wouldn't they be thinking of over penetration in an airplane be an issue? Don't get me wrong I love the .357 sig but just curious..
  7. greyeyezz

    greyeyezz Well-Known Member

    They may need to shoot through a seat or, God forbid, another passenger to take out a threat to the plane or something on the ground. Sounds harsh but it is what it is.
  8. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Well-Known Member

    Have to say, My M&P .40 was comfortable before, and feels even better now. one bad feed in the first mag, nothing since in 900 rounds.

    It's nice to see bits of justification of my choice after the fact, considering the super-low price points on the 250's nearly caught me.

    I'm still ergonomically incompatible with the Glocks, held a few more at the range last week too. (bah) the gent let me feel the harder, audible trigger reset he'd put in.

    I need that.
  9. Bovice

    Bovice Well-Known Member

    There's a reason the P250 is so cheap.
  10. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Well-Known Member


    Also, it's a great demonstration of the difference between Cheap and Inexpensive.

    250's are cheap, CZ-82's and RIA 1911's are inexpensive.

    Edit- Still want a 226 though.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  11. rscalzo

    rscalzo Well-Known Member

    Seems to me it's a training issue.

    MSRP between all three are within a few dollars. Cost to built a P250 is less because of the modular nature.
  12. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Well-Known Member

    Just goes to show that there is always room for improvement, but maybe the agents just wanted Smith and Wessons this go around. In a few years when this contract is up, they might want something else.
  13. legion3

    legion3 Well-Known Member

    Fixed it for ya ;)

    Actually have they awarded the contract yet?
  14. Hatterasguy

    Hatterasguy Well-Known Member

    I haven't heard to many good things about that Sig, every manufacture makes a dud once in awhile.

    M&P's are nice pistols, Glock too, they really can't go wrong with either.
  15. Runningman

    Runningman Well-Known Member

    Ouch! Think about that statement a minute. Sad to see.
  16. wow6599

    wow6599 Well-Known Member

    Fingers crossed for the M&P. I think it would be nice for government agencies to use American made products.
  17. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Well-Known Member

    Gimme a 'G,' gimme an 'L,' gimme an 'O,' gimme a 'C,' gimme a 'K,' what does that spell? GLOCK, GLOCK, GLOCK! Gooooo GLOCK!

    What else would they be using? There are plenty of JHPs for the .357 SIG that will get adequate but not excessive penetration. It is just like the 9mm, just faster. The added velocity is only going to help ensure expansion, which is actually going to aid in limiting penetration.

    Achieving adequate penetration is necessary regardless of where the gunfight is going to take place. Fragnibles, varmint bullets, and birdshot all produce shallow, superficial wounds that are unreliable stoppers. To work, a bullet must be able to penetrate to the vitals, or you might as well not even send it.

    And decompression is apparently not the issue some make it out to be. Even if an agent managed to shoot out an entire window, the plane would, by the reports I've read, just have to descend to 10,000 feet. The O2 masks might deploy, but it would hardly be catastrophic on the level portrayed by Hollywood.
  18. legion3

    legion3 Well-Known Member

    Americans still make products? Who knew? :confused:


    Actually if I were a pro Glock guy I would actually want the ATF to go with the M&P's as that would mean they wouldn't have the best :neener:
  19. Maj Dad

    Maj Dad Well-Known Member

    I was range officer this past Saturday at Manchester Range & there was a young airman from Shaw AFB with a new SIG 250. With 2 different types of ammo he had about a 50% FTFire even with multiple double-action strikes (and after ruling out the usual problems with dirt etc). I thought it odd that a SIG would do that, but maybe ATF had a similar situation (although 58/8000 isn't quite as bad as the airman's experience).
  20. rellascout

    rellascout member

    The P250 is "cohen" Sig. It is all concept flash with no meat on the bone. It inbodies the move the metal mentality cohen has brought to Sig. I personally hope this is a wakeup call for Sig management.

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